• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Bible declares that Jesus is God

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Great, so while we're all in a forgiving mood, why not point us to some of your religion's past statement of heartfelt repentance...especially since it was you who first brought the accusation.



I see. So these "false religions" say it is God's will that they not repent and this is a lie.

Can you point us to your source please? I'm simply not aware of any main stream Christian religion that claims they should not repent.

However I can think of one that never has repented, and has never apologized for anything, but I'm waiting for you to show that link of heartfelt repentance your Organization published first.



Nazism is rising up all the time. Christians oppose it. You will always find others willing to look the other way. Some may be closer than you think.



Here we are, just what? 4 DAYS from MEMORIAL DAY, where tens of thousand of Catholics died opposing Hitler so each and every religion would have a full opportunity to heap even the vilest of accusation against them...and you gleefully take the opportunity in hand by claiming they all worked for Adolf Hitler.

Honestly kjw, I really think it would benefit you greatly to go to the library and pick up any secular book on US or international history.

BTW, as Metis has already alluded, there were some 25-30,000 Jehovah Witnesses in Germany when Hitler went to war. Only 5,000 went into the camps. They should be proud of those 5,000, and rightly so. But where do we find your Organization's repentance for the balance?


By making correction to error is repentence.
Is there a new book not filled with lies about us history? otherwise I don't need to see the same lies I was taught in school--
Reality---Great britian ruled the usa-- traitors killed and stole it from them( yet those traitors called benedict Arnold the traitior--ironic isn't it.
Killed 100 million Indians to steal land and gold, enslaved black humans and treated the yellow humans like dogs---They seemed to forgot to put these truths into their books. The blind guides( trinity clergy) stood in place and allowed all of it by throwing Jesus away--because they do not know him.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is no discussion if one knows Jesus.
Since there are around 300 Christian denominations and thousands of independent churches, I beg to differ.

The spirit of Jesus( in the mortal heart)= LOVE,PEACE,UNITY--Love your enemies, return evil for evil to no one--If your enemy is hungry-feed him, if thirsty-give him a drink
And that is something that a great many people in all the major religions and many secular institutions do, and it's the course my family and I try to follow.

Not so easy following Jesus in a satan ruled world.
I'm not polytheistic.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
At what point did Jesus ever DENY being God?

Why would He? He didn't deny being an elephant either, but clearly isn't one.

If you want some scripture to refute what you believe to be a certainty lets try:

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Exodus next paragraph--They saw a vision--not the real McCoy

Next paragraph, no mention of a vision.

Exodus 24:12-14 (ESV Strong's) The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” 13 So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. 14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.”
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
The spirit of Jesus( in the mortal heart)= LOVE,PEACE,UNITY--Love your enemies, return evil for evil to no one--If your enemy is hungry-feed him, if thirsty-give him a drink-- vengeance is mine said the Lord.

Except when someone doesn't agree with your false teachings, right?

According to your videos on your broadcasting site, if someones child is disfellowshipped, the parents won't even answer their phone calls. How does that tie in with, "If your enemy is hungry-feed him, if thirsty-give him a drink"?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
At what point did Jesus ever DENY being God?

At what point did Jesus ever DENY being Princess Leia?

Point being, - why would he deny something he wasn't claiming, or being called at that time?

Later Christians claim this with no proof.

He only claimed to be the Messiah, = a special HUMAN sent by God, from the Line of David.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Next paragraph, no mention of a vision.

Exodus 24:12-14 (ESV Strong's) The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” 13 So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. 14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.”

SEE post # 274.

They went up to the mountain of YHVH, it doesn't say they saw him, - which is obvious by what they tell us they perceived. His "glory" was like fire, body of heaven, etc.

Exo 24:10 And they PERCEIVED the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a transparent work of sapphire, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Exo 24:16 And the glory of the LORD abode OVER mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exo 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

This is what they PERCEIVE as the GLORY of God. No actual seeing God. It actually tells us this splendor/glory of God is ABOVE the mountain. This makes sense with the other verses as YHVH is originally a SUN God and the sky would be the Blue under his feet. Also explains why Moses got Sunburned and covered his face

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Personally, I don't agree. To make a statement "church translates it to fit its wants" could be said of the same for anyone. (Including you and me).

Jesus didn't come to announce that he was God but there is ample scriptures to support that position by inference and by statements made.

This has been show by many of us, to be inaccurate.

Also, Jesus does not claim such. That would definitely be something he would tell his disciples if he thought it.

IMV. But to take all of this in context of his life on earth; he didn't come to be crowned, he came to die;

Where does Tanakh say the Jewish Messiah was to die - rather then fulfill prophecy?

he didn't come to proclaim that he was God but to fulfill that he was the Lamb of God;

Obviously NOT. He was a JEW claiming to be the Jewish Messiah. He taught ONE God, - not a pagan trinity idea.

he didn't come to be exalted but to be abased;

Where does Tanakh say the Jewish Messiah from the Line of DAVID, - would come to be abased?

he didn't come with pomp and fanfare but came in a manger

The "virgin" birth story is from a later mistranslation/misunderstanding of Isaiah.

and thus one must view with a little more scrutiny about when He made inference that He was The Eternal Word and when scriptures does say He was The Word (God) in the flesh..

We have already shown that John 1 doesn't have to be translated as such. The word being IN Jesus - does NOT make Jesus God.

Upon his resurrection He did, however, open up the scriptures for understanding and the disciples did proclaim his position as part of the Godhead.

First - you have no proof of any resurrection, - or opening up of scriptures.

Second - We have been showing that all such verses being claimed as saying he is God, can be translated differently, - with none actually saying Jesus is God.

*
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
By making correction to error is repentence.
Is there a new book not filled with lies about us history? otherwise I don't need to see the same lies I was taught in school--
Reality---Great britian ruled the usa-- traitors killed and stole it from them( yet those traitors called benedict Arnold the traitior--ironic isn't it.
Killed 100 million Indians to steal land and gold, enslaved black humans and treated the yellow humans like dogs---They seemed to forgot to put these truths into their books. The blind guides( trinity clergy) stood in place and allowed all of it by throwing Jesus away--because they do not know him.

Please enlighten us as to what the witnesses did to stop any of it! Since they were not to be 'part of the world', what did they do? I don't recall any history book that praised the witnesses for standing up for the Afro Americans who were enslaved. But I do recall Christians coming to their aid.

What say you about that?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Why would He? He didn't deny being an elephant either, but clearly isn't one.

If you want some scripture to refute what you believe to be a certainty lets try:

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

I'm sorry, but none of those refute what I believe to be certainty. Maybe they do for you, but not for me!


Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Wasn't Jesus a MAN when He said that?
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
All you have to do is go back to the earliest source you can find in the original language.

Taking you at your word that the earliest source is the only one to be trusted, let's take a look at a couple. You can translate them for yourself to determine if modern Greek scholarship has properly translated the ancient Greek.

P66 dates of c.175 or c.125-150 A.D. (John 1:1-6:11, 6:35b-14:26,29-30; 15:2-26; 16:2-4; 16:6-7; 16:10-20:20; 20:22-23; 20:25-21:9; 21:12,17 (fragments of John 19:16). John 1:1 reads: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

P75 175-200 A.D., or 175-225 A.D. (most of Luke and John. John 1:1-11:45; 11:48-57; 12:3-13:1; 13:8-9; 14:8-15; part of 14:16; 14:17-29; 15:7-8). John 1:1 reads: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Both P66 and P75 in English read: In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.

For John 1:18 P66 reads: μονογενὴς θεός. P75 reads: ὁ μονογενὴς θεός. monogenēs theos. P75 with the definite article. In English the "only begotten God".

Again P66 contains John 20:28 ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου In English read: And Thomas answered and said to him, The Lord of me and the God of me.


p66joh1.jpg Papyrus_75a (1).gif [p66joh1.jpg

Revelation 19:13 The earliest Codices are Sinaiticus (340-350 A.D.) and Alexandrinus (c.450 A.D) have all of Revelation.
η μη αυτοϲ και πε ριβεβλημενοϲ ϊ ματιον περιρεραμ μενον αιματι και κεκλη το ονομα αυτου ο λογοϲ το
In English: He is dressed in a robe dyed by dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God.

Daniel B. Wallace is Senior Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary (has taught there for more than 28 years) and Executive Director of the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. (CSNTM) He earned a B.A. at Biola University (1975) with a major in biblical studies and minor in Greek; graduated magna cum laude from Dallas Seminary with a ThM degree (1979), with the equivalent of a major in Old Testament studies and a double major in New Testament Studies; graduated summa cum laude from Dallas Seminary with a PhD in New Testament studies (1995). He has done postdoctoral study at Tyndale House, Christ’s College, Clare College, and Westminster College, Cambridge; the Institut für neutestamentliche Textforschung (Institute for New Testament Textual Research), Münster, Germany, Tübingen University; Glasgow University; Bayerische Staatsbibliothek (Bavarian State Library), Munich; as well as various libraries and monasteries in Europe, Australia, America, and Africa.

As an internationally known Greek New Testament scholar, Wallace has been a consultant for four Bible translations—ESV, TNIV, New King James Bible, and New English Translation. He has also contributed articles to the ESV Study Bible and the Holman Christian Standard Study Bible.

He states: "No textual debates on John 1.1c exist in any standard work on Jesus-θεός passages, until fourteen years ago. NT textual critics were unanimous in their certainty of John 1:1c. This scholarly agreement continues today even though one textual critic, Bart Ehrman, stated his reluctance to dismiss a single eighth-century Alexandrian manuscript, L."

"Although the most probable understanding of the anarthrous θεός is qualitative (the Word has the same nature as God),36 three points concern us here textually. First, both P75 and Codex B attest to the absence of the article in 37 Kenneth W. Clark concludes, “it is our judgment that P75 appears to have the best textual character in the third century.”38 Likewise, Ehrman concurs, “[a]mong all the witnesses, P75 is generally understood to be the strongest.”39 Thus, this evidence significantly strengthens our initial external examination in favor of an anarthrous θεός."...

“The term θεός appears in some form 83 times. Of these 63 are articular and 20 anarthrous. Still, it is highly improbable that the Fourth Evangelist intends any consistent distinction to be drawn between θεός and ὁ θεός.”

At any rate, the scholarly consensus is correct, then, that the text is certain and every viable MS ascribes the title θεός to Jesus. For that reason, I will press on to John 1.18...

Θεός is attested in the best Alexandrian majuscule (B) and in the earliest available MSS (P66 P75).61 The significance of this is that if the Alexandrian witnesses for υἱός (e.g., T Δ Ψ 892 1241) cannot reasonably go back to the Alexandrian archetype its attestation therein is almost a moot point...

What impresses us here, though, is that θεός is attested again outside the Alexandrian tradition (e.g., the Pe****ta [syrp] in the Gospels is close to the Byzantine type of text and was “transmitted with remarkable fidelity” and syrh(mg) is close to the “Western” type of text).73 At the same time, θεός is the exclusive reading in both the Arabic and Coptic traditions.74 θεός, then, is also attested in one of the earliest versions of the NT where υἱός is completely absent (the Coptic versions)...

The real question would then become, “How early?” To answer this objection, the evidence reveals that earlier MSS (in fact, the earliest) attest to θεός (and well before the Arian controversy). This indicates that the objection would remain highly speculative and against the clearer testimony of earlier and better MSS. In other words, the earliest and best MSS heighten the argument away from the allegation that this is an orthodox corruption (as well as the fact that both sides of this Christological controversy use/quote θεός).

Regarding Heb.1:8 He states: In the end, I believe that the preponderance of evidence (geographically, genealogically, and internally) points to the true textual reading, “but to the Son [he declares], ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.’ ” The probability, then, is high that Heb 1.8 explicitly calls Jesus θεός.

Regarding 2 Peter 1:1 ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ In English read: Simon Peter, an Apostle and servant of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith that through the justice of our God and Savior Jesus Christ is of equal privilege as is ours; Dr. Wallace states:The external support, however, overwhelmingly favors of θεοῦ. In fact, the NA27 and Editio Critica Maior together only list nine witnesses for κυρίου (mentioned above, with only the NA27 listing vgmss). This means virtually all other witnesses support θεοῦ...the Granville Sharp Rule undoubtedly applies to this construction, thereby referring both titles (“God” and “Savior”) to Jesus Christ. “It is hardly open for anyone to translate 1 Peter 1:3 ‘the God and Father’ and yet here decline to translate ‘the God and Saviour’.

As a matter of fact, although Ehrman did not mention Titus 2.13 specifically in Orthodox Corruption, by his own argument regarding 2 Pet 1.1, Titus 2.13 would explicitly equate Jesus with θεός, “Because the article is not repeated before Ἰησοῦ (in 2 Pet 1:1), it would be natural to understand both ‘our God’ and ‘Savior’ in reference to Jesus [our ‘God and Savior’]” (Orthodox Corruption, 267). In other words, Ehrman recognizes that one article with two nouns joined by καί refers to the same person; making Titus 2.13 an explicit reference to Jesus as θεός.

The deity of Christ is not jeopardized even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical?) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion. On the other hand, Ehrman does have a tremendous problem if θεός ends up being the best reading because it would contradict his overall thesis and would put a major dent in his a priori assumption that Jesus is not called θεός in the NT. For example, Ehrman specifically states that if μονογενὴς θεός is the original text in John 1.18 then “the complete deity of Christ is affirmed” (Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption, 78). Yet this is a theological belief he does not support at this time.

It was not a doctrinal innovation to combat Arianism in the third century. Nor was it a sub-apostolic distortion of the apostolic kerygma in the second century. Rather, the church’s confession of Christ as θεός began in the first century with the apostles themselves and/or their closest followers and therefore most likely from Jesus himself.

Even if the early Church had never applied the title θεός to Jesus, his deity would still be apparent in his being the object of human and angelic worship and of saving faith; the exerciser of exclusively divine functions such as creatorial agency, the forgiveness of sins, and the final judgment; the addressee in petitionary prayer; the possessor of all divine attributes; the bearer of numerous titles used of Yahweh in the OT; and the co-author of divine blessing. Faith in the deity of Christ does not rest on the evidence or validity of a series of ‘proof-texts’ in which Jesus may receive the title θεός but on the general testimony of the NT corroborated at the bar of personal experience." Jesus as Θεός (God): A Textual Examination

Finally even Bart Ehrman must conclude: "For John, Jesus was a pre-existent divine being – the Word of God who was both with God and was God at the beginning of all things – who became a human."
https://ehrmanblog.org/jesus-as-god-in-the-synoptics-for-members/

Will you still accept the earliest manuscript evidence as your final authority?
 
Last edited:

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Taking you at your word that the earliest source is the only one to be trusted, let's take a look at a couple. You can translate them for yourself to determine if modern Greek scholarship has properly translated the ancient Greek.

P66 dates of c.175 or c.125-150 A.D. (John 1:1-6:11, 6:35b-14:26,29-30; 15:2-26; 16:2-4; 16:6-7; 16:10-20:20; 20:22-23; 20:25-21:9; 21:12,17 (fragments of John 19:16). John 1:1 reads: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

P75 175-200 A.D., or 175-225 A.D. (most of Luke and John. John 1:1-11:45; 11:48-57; 12:3-13:1; 13:8-9; 14:8-15; part of 14:16; 14:17-29; 15:7-8). John 1:1 reads: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Both P66 and P75 in English read: In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.

For John 1:18 P66 reads: μονογενὴς θεός. P75 reads: ὁ μονογενὴς θεός. monogenēs theos. P75 with the definite article. In English the "only begotten God".

Again P66 contains John 20:28 ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου In English read: And Thomas answered and said to him, The Lord of me and the God of me.

Will you still accept the earliest manuscript evidence as your final authority?

WOW! I hope everybody reads that carefully - because it has no actual proof.

In fact the majority is about other texts.

He tells us that since "all" the other texts refer to him as Theos then this verse must also.

We of course are showing that this is not the case with the other verses, as have other Christian denominations as well.

Also - obviously the majority of translators do not agree with θεός in place of υἱός.

With all those texts up there he doesn't even show a translation using θεός in place of υἱός .

In fact just these sentences actually discussing the verse, and they obviously have no proof for what it is asserting.

"For John 1:18 P66 reads: μονογενὴς θεός. P75 reads: ὁ μονογενὴς θεός. monogenēs theos. P75 with the definite article. In English the "only begotten God"."
We have this quote - NOTE what it says ---

The deity of Christ is not jeopardized even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical?) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion. On the other hand, Ehrman does have a tremendous problem if θεός ends up being the best reading because it would contradict his overall thesis and would put a major dent in his a priori assumption that Jesus is not called θεός in the NT. For example, Ehrman specifically states that if μονογενὴς θεός is the original text in John 1.18 then “the complete deity of Christ is affirmed” (Ehrman, Orthodox Corruption, 78). Yet this is a theological belief he does not support at this time.

The author's "proof" seems to be that since HE thinks other verses about Jesus are calling him God, then this must be too. The problem there as already stated, is that we are showing those translations to be wrong.

RICK says this -"At any rate, the scholarly consensus is correct, then, that the text is certain and every viable MS ascribes the title θεός to Jesus. For that reason, I will press on to John 1.18..."

However the info following this statement is just about θεός, and does not associate it with John 1:18, No proof for John 1:18.

Carefully look at the Books and verses named during this all over the place "proof."

Nothing up there is proof that θεός should be in place of υἱός.

*
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
For John 1:18 P66 reads: μονογενὴς θεός. P75 reads: ὁ μονογενὴς θεός. monogenēs theos. P75 with the definite article. In English the "only begotten God".

As far as I'm concerned, this itself could end the argument about whether the Bible claims Jesus to be God.
We have both inferences, /begotten God, contextually referring to Jesus.
Note we don't even encounter here, vaguery, as to which Jesus' is being inferenced, ie Spirit form Jesus, or "man" /, the human manifestation.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Pure bull, as stated I do not have to believe in a text to challenge a translation. We are discussing if it was translated accurately, or not, by later groups.

Nah. You weren’t discussing different translations. You questioned whether New Testament scripture was reliable because it was written “after the fact”. That is an attack on the veracity of the New Testament itself, not an attack on a particular translation.

Do I need to quote the context again?

Obviously I have shown many verses to be inaccurate. If I use one as is - it is because I have looked it up, - and it is close enough in meaning.

Are you trying to obfuscate? You’ve already claimed the entire New Testament can’t be relied upon. As such, who cares what translation you use? When you claim the source is unreliable, by default you claim any translation of that source unreliable as well!

Look, suppose some guy named Satan just told me something. I happen to know that whatever he tells me is completely unreliable. So it doesn’t matter if I translate what he told me into English, German, or Japanese. Neither does it matter if I had an army of experienced translators working on it. Any "translation", no matter how faithfully rendered, would be as inherently unreliable as the source. The source doesn't become believable because it's been translated!

And if you don’t trust my source, why believe me when I quote this source from a translation? Why should I or anyone else believe you when you quote this same source?

We are talking about TRANSLATIONS. Many of them are inaccurate. All you have to do is go back to the earliest source you can find in the original language.

No Ingledvsga. We are NOT talking about TRANSLATIONS. We are talking about your ASSERTIONS. There is no point in talking about TRANSLATIONS if you miss the entire import of your ASSERTION.

You claimed the New Testament could not be relied upon. If the New World Testament cannot be relied upon, then it DOESN’T MATTER what translation you use nor how far back you go. It would be still be UNRELIABLE!

But you go further. Not only do you claim our source manuscripts unreliable, now you claim the translations of these manuscripts are unreliable as well!

So going back to my prior example, would you believe anything quoted from my completely unreliable source if I told you the translation of that source was equally unreliable?

What would be the point in quoting a translation?

What if I told you I had the earliest unreliable translation from an UNRELIABLE source? Would any argument I make from my translation convince you then???

Look, unreliability is a completely different argument than belief. I can talk or exchange scriptural meaning with a Muslim or Buddhist and know full well they don’t believe in Christ or the New Testament. Likewise they know I don’t belief in their prophet or Buddha.

However if they tell me the New Testament is completely unreliable because no one knows what they really said then there is no point in quoting New Testament scripture to them. Likewise, if I tell them their scriptural writings are completely inaccurate because they do not truly represent the prophet’s words, then there is no point in them quoting me their scripture either.

They would simply make the SAME argument you made earlier:
“Well, first , these were written by people after Jesus was dead. We don't know that any of this was actually said.

As such, any discussion regarding NT translations with you is meaningless. Not only do you not believe in the veracity of any New Testament passage I quote you, you do not believe in the veracity of any New Testament passage you quote me. Veracity and belief are separate arguments here. You can believe in the veracity of scripture without believing in the scripture itself. If you believe the New Testament or large swathes of it are invalid because they lack veracity, then there is little point in us quoting them.

No - but Christianity is a secondary - later - religion - taking Tanakh texts and mistranslating, - misunderstanding them, - and then claiming they are correct and the owners are wrong.

Then there is little credence that we can’t believe New Testament scripture because it was written after an event had passed. As for viewing New Testament scripture through the lens of the Tanakh, I’ll have more to say on that later.

He said, - "...Of course you must retranslate them to fit your presuppositions."

This is BULL. I was raised and educated in Christianity. This is pertinent to what he is claiming.

I think we’ve already pointed out the inherent dangers in “spin the wheel” or “spin a meaning” hermeneutics. Anyone can roll out their own bible based on a study tool or two.

You are reading a TRANSLATION. You already claimed that Christians have the New Testament wrong, so you are RE-TRANSLATING your TRANSLATION based on your study tools. You’ve already claimed the New Testament unreliable, so obviously that has colored your RE-TRANSLATION. Lastly, you’ve already asserted the New Testament should be viewed from the Tanakh, rather than allowing the New Testament authors to SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. In fact, you claim we simply can’t believe the New Testament authors if they appear to contradict your interpretation of the Tanakh. This is a presupposition.

As such, Rick’s assertion is correct because you yourself make claim to it. You re-translate and make suppositions that color your re-translation.

Baloney, it is crap! He sidestepped the debate to make assertions against me. Stick to the debate.

RICK said "Of course you must retranslate them to fit your presuppositions." This is the same as calling me a liar.

*

Rick disagreed with your assertion. That is NOT the same as calling you a liar. The assertion was against your argument, not a personal attack against you. It was you and not Rick who brought up the fact you had multiple bible translations which allegedly supported your assertion. Is the possibility you might be “stretching” or “reinterpreting” these translations something we are not allowed to bring up? If that’s the case, why not allow everyone to make the same assertion you do…that no one can disagree with a translation without calling that person a liar…and kill any debate altogether?

Challenging an assertion is not the “same” as calling you a liar. This is a debate forum and such accusations are without merit. Please, learn to separate the two.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
By making correction to error is repentence.

Let’s see how that works:

Example 1:

Bob and Harry are sitting on the steps one night, reading a Watchtower and Awake magazine that kjw left for them the morning before. Bob reads that “correction to error = repentance” and wonders how he might put this to action when they spy Johnny walking up the street. “Hey Johnny”, Bob yells “Barbara was looking for you at the show. She’s in the second row. I think if you purchase a ticket you can still meet her there”.

Johnny is enrolled in special classes and he is not the smartest boy in school, but he has a big heart and a crush on Barbara. So he runs to the show and spends his last few dollars to buy a ticket. When he gets to the second row he sees Barbara with David, both enjoying the show on their date.

Johnny's eyes get a bit watery, but then he angrily heads back toward Bob. ‘Why did you tell me she was waiting for me when she wasn’t?” he asks bitterly.

“Oh, you’re right”, Bob replies,"she didn't ask for you. But look at it this way…those 20 minutes it took you to get the theater were probably the happiest of your miserable life."

This makes Johnny angrier but Harry admonishes him. “Bob clearly repented by correcting his error. I don’t understand why you would be angry with him”. With this, Harry shows "correction to error = repentance" from his latest, straight of the press Watchtower and compliments Bob on being repentant.

Can you honestly tell us that Harry is right and that Bob has repented? Or it would it be more correct to surmise they preyed on Johnny’s gullibility?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Why would He? He didn't deny being an elephant either, but clearly isn't one.

At what point did Jesus ever DENY being Princess Leia?

Well, that is one “white elephant” of an argument that even "the force" can't overcome! They both lack biblical context.

The reason Jesus didn’t deny being a white elephant is because he was never accused of being one. On the other hand, Jesus was accused of making himself God:

The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” John 10:33.​

This is something Jesus WAS accused of being which he DID NOT deny.

On the other hand, when they accused Jesus of having a demon (Beelzebub), this is something Jesus DID deny. See Luke 11:17-19.

Somehow, I get the impression that if Jesus had been accused of making himself a white elephant at John 10:33 he would have denied it instead of being silent, and if he had been accused of creating miracle through the same “force” that Princess Leia possessed he would have denied that charge at Luke 11:17-19 as well. :rolleyes:
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
As far as I'm concerned, this itself could end the argument about whether the Bible claims Jesus to be God.
We have both inferences, /begotten God, contextually referring to Jesus.
Note we don't even encounter here, vaguery, as to which Jesus' is being inferenced, ie Spirit form Jesus, or "man" /, the human manifestation.

What? Did you bother to read the whole thing?

Not even the section you posted proves Theos instead of Son. There is absolutely no argument there proving such.

He says this, - proving he can't back the claim, --

"The deity of Christ is not jeopardized even if υἱός is original. Although that shouldn’t be a factor in the discipline of textual criticism, this does allow certain (evangelical?) textual critics to follow the evidence to a relatively objective conclusion

The FACT that the text says υἱός and not θεός shouldn't be a factor???? LOLOLOLOL!

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Well, that is one “white elephant” of an argument that even "the force" can't overcome! They both lack biblical context.

The reason Jesus didn’t deny being a white elephant is because he was never accused of being one. On the other hand, Jesus was accused of making himself God:

The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” John 10:33.​

This is something Jesus WAS accused of being which he DID NOT deny.

On the other hand, when they accused Jesus of having a demon (Beelzebub), this is something Jesus DID deny. See Luke 11:17-19.

Somehow, I get the impression that if Jesus had been accused of making himself a white elephant at John 10:33 he would have denied it instead of being silent, and if he had been accused of creating miracle through the same “force” that Princess Leia possessed he would have denied that charge at Luke 11:17-19 as well. :rolleyes:

Not so.

When they claim he blasphemes, he quotes from Psalm 82 - Which is a whole section on judges, where in Psalm 82:6 they are told "I said, 'You are (Elohiym), And all of you are the sons of the Most High." They are not being called God, and neither is Jesus.

AGAIN - Theos is being used in the JUDGE sense - and in this case he is claiming to be the Messiah, the Annointed Final Judge. A Judge over them in power. I think they would be a little perturbed.

Another place this is obviously mistranslated - Moses is Pharaoh's JUDGE - not his God.

Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god (Elohiym Judge) of Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

"Ye are gods (theoi este). Another direct quotation after eipa but without hoti. The judges of Israel abused their office and God is represented in Psa_82:6 as calling them (theoi, elohim) because they were God’s representatives. See the same use of elohim in Exo 21:6, Exo 22:9, Exo 22:28. Jesus meets the rabbis on their own ground in a thoroughly Jewish way." - Robertson's WORD Pictures of the New Testament.

NOTE - They call him CHRIST.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me,
even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. - (The Messiah - not a God.)

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God (THEOS) - Messiah, Annointed Judge of Israel..

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods (THEOS)? - (actually Theos - also meaning Chosen, Anointed, Magistrates, etc.)

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods (THEOS), unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

In
John 10 Jesus is not claiming to be GOD, - he has challenged the Priest Judges, saying he is the Anointed, Judge, or Magistrate. The Messiah who was to bring the end and FINAL JUDGMENT!

In the verse Jesus references, the JUDGES are called Elohiym the Hebrew equivalent to Theos in the Greek, and sons of God

Making it obvious he is claiming to be the Messiah - The Appointed Judge of Israel. Not a God.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Nah. You weren’t discussing different translations. You questioned whether New Testament scripture was reliable because it was written “after the fact”. That is an attack on the veracity of the New Testament itself, not an attack on a particular translation.

Do I need to quote the context again?

Since when is straight out FACT an attack. The NT WAS written AFTER Jesus died.

Are you trying to obfuscate? You’ve already claimed the entire New Testament can’t be relied upon. As such, who cares what translation you use? When you claim the source is unreliable, by default you claim any translation of that source unreliable as well!
Look, suppose some guy named Satan just told me something. I happen to know that whatever he tells me is completely unreliable. So it doesn’t matter if I translate what he told me into English, German, or Japanese. Neither does it matter if I had an army of experienced translators working on it. Any "translation", no matter how faithfully rendered, would be as inherently unreliable as the source. The source doesn't become believable because it's been translated

Relied upon as fact? Absolutely not. However we are discussing translation, - not if the book is fact.

And if you don’t trust my source, why believe me when I quote this source from a translation? Why should I or anyone else believe you when you quote this same source?
No Ingledvsga. We are NOT talking about TRANSLATIONS. We are talking about your ASSERTIONS. There is no point in talking about TRANSLATIONS if you miss the entire import of your ASSERTION.

You claimed the New Testament could not be relied upon. If the New World Testament cannot be relied upon, then it DOESN’T MATTER what translation you use nor how far back you go. It would be still be UNRELIABLE!

But you go further. Not only do you claim our source manuscripts unreliable, now you claim the translations of these manuscripts are unreliable as well!

What do you not understand about the difference between debating if it is Fact, or not, - and debating the translation of the book?

So going back to my prior example, would you believe anything quoted from my completely unreliable source if I told you the translation of that source was equally unreliable?

What would be the point in quoting a translation?

What if I told you I had the earliest unreliable translation from an UNRELIABLE source? Would any argument I make from my translation convince you then???

Look, unreliability is a completely different argument than belief. I can talk or exchange scriptural meaning with a Muslim or Buddhist and know full well they don’t believe in Christ or the New Testament. Likewise they know I don’t belief in their prophet or Buddha.

However if they tell me the New Testament is completely unreliable because no one knows what they really said then there is no point in quoting New Testament scripture to them. Likewise, if I tell them their scriptural writings are completely inaccurate because they do not truly represent the prophet’s words, then there is no point in them quoting me their scripture either.

They would simply make the SAME argument you made earlier:

As such, any discussion regarding NT translations with you is meaningless. Not only do you not believe in the veracity of any New Testament passage I quote you, you do not believe in the veracity of any New Testament passage you quote me. Veracity and belief are separate arguments here. You can believe in the veracity of scripture without believing in the scripture itself. If you believe the New Testament or large swathes of it are invalid because they lack veracity, then there is little point in us quoting them.

Then there is little credence that we can’t believe New Testament scripture because it was written after an event had passed. As for viewing New Testament scripture through the lens of the Tanakh, I’ll have more to say on that later.

I think we’ve already pointed out the inherent dangers in “spin the wheel” or “spin a meaning” hermeneutics. Anyone can roll out their own bible based on a study tool or two.

WOW! You really don't understand the difference do You? I can debate the translation of any book without being concerned with it's truth, or falsity. It has no bearing on the translation.

You are reading a TRANSLATION. You already claimed that Christians have the New Testament wrong, so you are RE-TRANSLATING your TRANSLATION based on your study tools. You’ve already claimed the New Testament unreliable, so obviously that has colored your RE-TRANSLATION. Lastly, you’ve already asserted the New Testament should be viewed from the Tanakh, rather than allowing the New Testament authors to SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. In fact, you claim we simply can’t believe the New Testament authors if they appear to contradict your interpretation of the Tanakh. This is a presupposition.
As such, Rick’s assertion is correct because you yourself make claim to it. You re-translate and make suppositions that color your re-translation.

LOL! Apparently you missed where I said I had the Greek and Hebrew texts on my computer, as well as multiple translations, and my own study from my religions courses.

I'm not re-translating translations - I'm going to the original languages.

Rick disagreed with your assertion. That is NOT the same as calling you a liar. The assertion was against your argument, not a personal attack against you. It was you and not Rick who brought up the fact you had multiple bible translations which allegedly supported your assertion. Is the possibility you might be “stretching” or “reinterpreting” these translations something we are not allowed to bring up? If that’s the case, why not allow everyone to make the same assertion you do…that no one can disagree with a translation without calling that person a liar…and kill any debate altogether?

Challenging an assertion is not the “same” as calling you a liar. This is a debate forum and such accusations are without merit. Please, learn to separate the two.

Baloney! Stick to the debate and there won't be any problems.

Don't like what I say concerning the Bible, - then bring actual proof against it.

It's that simple.

*

*
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, that is one “white elephant” of an argument that even "the force" can't overcome! They both lack biblical context.

The reason Jesus didn’t deny being a white elephant is because he was never accused of being one. On the other hand, Jesus was accused of making himself God:

The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” John 10:33.​

This is something Jesus WAS accused of being which he DID NOT deny.

On the other hand, when they accused Jesus of having a demon (Beelzebub), this is something Jesus DID deny. See Luke 11:17-19.

Somehow, I get the impression that if Jesus had been accused of making himself a white elephant at John 10:33 he would have denied it instead of being silent, and if he had been accused of creating miracle through the same “force” that Princess Leia possessed he would have denied that charge at Luke 11:17-19 as well. :rolleyes:

So let's talk about context. Jesus was accused of claiming to be God (even though He hasn't), and how does He respond? He quotes from psalms 82:6 where it is written 'we are all gods!?' Hardly an argument where He is claiming to be the one true God, unless you want to add a few more God to the three you have already claimed.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
John 10:31-34
 
Top