Sexism and sexualization in the media.

So a couple of these have already made their rounds on various other sites but as of yet I haven't seen them around here.

I play a miniature game called infinity which has for quite some time been accused of sexism because of the looks of some of the female miniatures. Here is an example of someone talking about just that

Impetuous Orders: Sexism in miniature - The worst of Infinity

I should point out this is not all of the infinity models and a good portion of them look better. These are old sculpts after all but still.

Impetuous Orders: Sexism in miniature 2 - It's not all bad

You also have games like smite being accused of having overly sexualized images of goddesses

Why goddesses in Smite are so naked? • r/Smite



You can find all kinds of stuff like this in video games, tabletop games, movies, shows ect. My question is do you think this is a problem? Does this actually represent sexism or is this looking for a problem where there isn't one?

I personally have to admit I am sometimes bothered by women in skimpy outfits on the battlefield. Not because of the sexual nature but the sheer impracticality of being half naked in a warzone instead of wearing real armor but that is just me.

I also want to add to @Sartre that a problem women were having with early Overwatch is that men had a multitude of body types. Women, only one. All curves seems to be the default for women in much of video game design (though it's getting better!) But men in games could be short, tall, fat, thin, lithe, brawny, effeminate, hyper masculanized, hairy or bald.

ADigitalArtist said:

I also want to add to @Sartre that a problem women were having with early Overwatch is that men had a multitude of body types. Women, only one. All curves seems to be the default for women in much of video game design (though it's getting better!) But men in games could be short, tall, fat, thin, lithe, brawny, effeminate, hyper masculanized, hairy or bald.

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Wasn't Zarya in the Beta? I played the beta then dropped it to keep playing Hearthstone.

Flame said:

Wasn't Zarya in the Beta? I played the beta then dropped it to keep playing Hearthstone.

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I can't remember if she was in beta or not, but she was fairly down the line in character release order. 14 of 23. I do remember that she was in response to some criticisms of that nature.

Lorgar-Aurelian said:

So a couple of these have already made their rounds on various other sites but as of yet I haven't seen them around here.

I play a miniature game called infinity which has for quite some time been accused of sexism because of the looks of some of the female miniatures. Here is an example of someone talking about just that

Impetuous Orders: Sexism in miniature - The worst of Infinity

I should point out this is not all of the infinity models and a good portion of them look better. These are old sculpts after all but still.

Impetuous Orders: Sexism in miniature 2 - It's not all bad

You also have games like smite being accused of having overly sexualized images of goddesses

Why goddesses in Smite are so naked? • r/Smite

You can find all kinds of stuff like this in video games, tabletop games, movies, shows ect. My question is do you think this is a problem? Does this actually represent sexism or is this looking for a problem where there isn't one?

I personally have to admit I am sometimes bothered by women in skimpy outfits on the battlefield. Not because of the sexual nature but the sheer impracticality of being half naked in a warzone instead of wearing real armor but that is just me.

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I think this is merely creating a problem where there isn't one. Sex sells, and video games are a business. Freedom means dealing with entertainment that might offend your sensibilities. It really isn't a big deal.

I believe they are in the clear as long as they have pasties.

Kemosloby said:

I believe they are in the clear as long as they have pasties.

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Pasties are the most sexual of all pastries. They are the reason there are just buckets of fluids everytime people walk into bakeshops.

Sartre said:

Petition to put Jesus in smite anyone?

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Rather have a crossdressing Muhammad who rides bourak into battle.

Lorgar-Aurelian said:

Pasties are the most sexual of all pastries. They are the reason there are just buckets of fluids everytime people walk into bakeshops.

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I think your mind may have gone over the edge.

Sartre said:

Just because a studio has the freedom to do something doesn't mean it's morally or ethically acceptable.

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Fair enough, but what is morally or ethically unacceptable about depicting video game characters in this way?

Sartre said:

I would argue that objectification of women in video games has lead to the widespread misogyny in many of the more "hardcore" communities of gamers.

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Couldn't you also switch it to the massive amount of violence in video games leads to widespread anger issues and violent outbursts?

Sartre said:

I would argue that objectification of women in video games has lead to the widespread misogyny in many of the more "hardcore" communities of gamers.

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What do you mean by this specifically? What is the widespread misogyny in the "hardcore communities of gamers"? I apologize, but I am not a "gamer", so I really just don't know what you are talking about?

Also, what evidence do you base your claim on? Why do you think the cause is depicting women like this in video games? I ask because depicting women like this has been going on for generations. So, why do you think video games are to blame?

Sartre said:

Violence in media is nothing new, and I'd be open to the idea that it might not have a good societal outcome, however I'm not as convinced of that as I am for objectification.

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Provocative depictions of women in the media is nothing new. Even Fox News is surprising sometimes in this respect. So, why do you think it is so different than violence?

To be fair to Smite, most Goddesses they chose are depicted naked traditionally anyway. They took liberties to accentuate certain aspects of them, but again, this can be taken as a power fantasy for many females. Some also might take issue with it but eh. Opinions opinions.

Sartre said:

I would argue that objectification of women in video games has lead to the widespread misogyny in many of the more "hardcore" communities of gamers.

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Where? I'm in a few "hardcore gaming communities." It used to be that when you were a lady in an MMO or RPG you were helped out immediately by fellow male gamers. And if you were a female gamer you were seen as "awesome." Granted I run in mostly Action/Adventure style communities now, so what changed exactly? I have yet to run into this misogyny you speak of. And I think female players often still receive help.
Females were always depicted like that, sure I don't always agree with it, but it seems this charge of misogyny came much later, post GamerGate. Post SJW vs Anti rantings. I think the real issue is that both sides are continuously screeching at each other causing trouble and everyone else has had to either duck for cover or put up their defenses. So you get this toxic environment. (Yes, of course you still have 12 year old idiot trolls by default in certain games.)

And if what you are saying is true, why is it that study after study after study has rebuked the causal link between video game violence and real life violence? You can't blame the medium for certain attitudes and not others. Either it causes or correlates to both violent tendencies and sexism or neither. You can't have it both ways.The only thing that some studies have pointed to is a higher competitive streak in some males. Which is what a general sport would do anyway. And I am suspicious of video games correlating to "anger management issues." When that has not only existed before video games, but also has more to do with a person's emotional well being and how they were taught to express their emotions from a young age. Namely the blame is more on society and the parent/s and/or guardians than any video game for that one.

The video game medium has only existed for about 30 years. Why is such a young medium (especially in comparison to TV, Movies, Books etc) to blame for any societal ill?

Sartre said:

Nobody is saying that the only reason sexism exists is videogames.

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I never said that anyone did.
I'll rephrase, why do video games correlate to misogyny based on their depictions of females? When such depictions are younger than even I am.

Sartre said:

I don't think it's specifically video games. However, being a market almost entirely marketed towards men it has become more and more objectifying.

I didn't think there needed to be an argument explaining why objectification is bad in and of itself, I had assumed most people that would have been common ground.

Video games influence sexist attitudes
Here’s What Sexist Video Games Do to Boys' Brains

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I am withholding judgment until I see more evidence, when it comes to adults. It's like porn. I don't think that porn is bad when watched by adults whose brains and attitudes have developed for the most part. But, when it comes to kids, it can certainly be a terrible influence. But, we can't outlaw certain media tendencies that aren't intended for children simply because children might be able to get their hands on it. If that were the case we would have to outlaw alcohol, dating sites, movies, music, etc. We would live in a nanny police state, which would be absolutely unacceptable.

Sartre said:

I'm going to make the argument that most violence isn't behavioral while sexism is.

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What do you mean by this? I feel like tendencies for violence (which would be the subject of this discussion) are absolutely behavioral, so maybe I am misunderstanding your point.

Sartre said:

Because the depiction of women in most triple A games which are not targeted at kids, objectify women, rather than empower them.

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You don't expect all forms of media to empower women, right? I feel like that is not a reasonable expectation.

Sartre said:

The same player playing Halo as female/male received almost 3 times as many verbal insults. Frankly "you play like a girl" and similar remarks have left a culture of a lot of immature men who are particularly annoyed by the idea of a girl beating them.

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That has been a problem for as long as I can remember. I feel like the incorrect assumptions about women are getting fewer and far between. There are still hillbillies and socially stunted individuals who cling to their ideas about the limitations of women, but I think progress is being made.

I just don't see depicting women in bikinis with curvy bodies as being a problem. Sex sells, so I find it hard to blame the video game developers for using images of women like that.

Sartre said:

and nobody has suggested doing such a thing in this thread.

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Then what is the solution?

Sartre said:

I expect all forms of media to treat women with decency. This would be comparatively empowering when put next to the rest of gaming.

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OK, but what is indecent about portraying women in sexy outfits? I just want to understand what specifically bothers you.

Sartre said:

As I said earlier in this thread, characters can be sexual without being objectified.
The GTA model of portraying women is not something that should be morally tolerated.

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This is where my ignorance comes in. What is the "GTA model"?

Sartre said:

Criticism. With the funding of people like Sarkesian it's very clear that there is a community of women and men who are willing to buy games which don't objectify women and not buy games which objectify them.
By expanding this group as much as possible, it can only lead to a more inclusive community which produces games that more people feel comfortable playing.

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Fair enough. But, I still don't see why making women in video games as physically attractive/sexy as possible is objectifying women. Male super heroes are extremely fit, physically attractive men. Is there something wrong with "objectifying men" in this way, or is there a double standard?