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Baby Baptism

Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Victor said:
I'm not following how this is connected to baptism. :shrug:


Acts 8:14-17 - the people of Samaria were baptized in Christ, but did not receive the fullness of the Spirit until they were confirmed by the elders. Confirmation is a sacrament that Jesus Christ instituted within His Catholic Church to further strengthen those who have reached adulthood.

Acts 19:5-6 - the people of Ephesus were baptized in Christ, but Paul laid hands on them to seal them with the Holy Spirit. This sealing refers to the sacrament of confirmation.
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You have really stretched it here. In both cases they had not been baptized by another Christian. Also, there is no mention of "confirmation".
 
Quiddity

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
NetDoc said:
You have really stretched it here. In both cases they had not been baptized by another Christian.
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Come again? :areyoucra Who baptized them?
NetDoc said:
Also, there is no mention of "confirmation".
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I'm surprised a veteran as yourself would even bother to use such an argument.
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Well,

I really couldn't believe you used those as references to confirmation. They surely don't resemble anything that goes on today.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NetDoc said:
You have really stretched it here. In both cases they had not been baptized by another Christian. Also, there is no mention of "confirmation".
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I agree with Victor that these verses are referring to the ordinance of confirmation. My only quarrel with him is that Christ instituted this ordinance within "His Catholic Church." The only Church Jesus Christ instituted any ordinances in was the Church of Jesus Christ. The word "confirmation" may not be used, but I believe it's entirely accurate to describe the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost as describing confirmation.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NetDoc said:
Well,

I really couldn't believe you used those as references to confirmation. They surely don't resemble anything that goes on today.
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They describe exactly what goes on today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 
cardero

cardero

Citizen Mod
Katzpur said:
But God does stand on His word.
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When it comes to baptism whose word does God stand on?
Hebrew (OT), Latin (NT), Born Again, Catholic, LDS (BoM), Patrickism (HIM)?
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
cardero said:
When it comes to baptism whose word does God stand on?
Hebrew (OT), Latin (NT), Born Again, Catholic, LDS (BoM), Patrickism (HIM)?
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Well, I know absolutely nothing about Patrickism, so I really can't compare your beliefs to what the New Testament states. Since the ordinance (i.e. ritual, tradition, sacrament) of baptism is not mentioned at all in the Old Testament, it would be safe to say that all Christians believe the New Testament to be the word on God regarding baptism. As a Latter-day Saint, I don't even need to reference the Book of Mormon to know what God expects of us. We have, in the Bible, in Jesus' own words, both the commandment and the coincidences for failure to keep the commandment:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So, regardless of what any Christian would like to believe in terms of God "disregarding someone because they haven’t gone through this ritual or tradition," the scriptures don't leave a lot of room for debate on the subject.

That said, I believe that God has provided a way for everyone who would like to receive baptism to do so -- and it's a way that is entirely biblical in nature.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
That depends entirely upon how one interprets what one is reading...hence, the many versions and theologies surrounding baptism, the form, the efficacy, the working agent, the place of faith, the question of age, the question of authority, etc. I agree with Car. God doesn't stand on ceremony. The ceremony (once again) is for our benefit -- not God's benefit. To elevate the importance of word and ceremony is to make baptism a magic ritual instead of a spiritual grace, the efficacy of which depends more upon the understanding of the candidate and upon the theology of the officiating group than upon the work of the Holy Spirit.
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
So,

was Naaman clean after the sixth dip or the seventh?

After all it was ONLY a ceremony, right?

Infant baptism is nothing more than a ceremony.

Adult baptism is a simple act of obedience. It's not a ceremony at all. Once you learn to simply obey God, the scriptures will open up to you.
 
Elvendon

Elvendon

Mystical Tea Dispenser
sojourner said:
That depends entirely upon how one interprets what one is reading...hence, the many versions and theologies surrounding baptism, the form, the efficacy, the working agent, the place of faith, the question of age, the question of authority, etc. I agree with Car. God doesn't stand on ceremony. The ceremony (once again) is for our benefit -- not God's benefit. To elevate the importance of word and ceremony is to make baptism a magic ritual instead of a spiritual grace, the efficacy of which depends more upon the understanding of the candidate and upon the theology of the officiating group than upon the work of the Holy Spirit.
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Seconded. God doesn't need any bangs and whistles to get the job done.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
NetDoc said:
So,

was Naaman clean after the sixth dip or the seventh?

After all it was ONLY a ceremony, right?

Infant baptism is nothing more than a ceremony.

Adult baptism is a simple act of obedience. It's not a ceremony at all. Once you learn to simply obey God, the scriptures will open up to you.
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Naaman was clean when the Holy Spirit cleansed him. Once again, it's not the water, nor the faith of the candidate, nor the actions of the officiant, nor the words of the assembly that do the cleansing -- it's the Holy Spirit. The words, actions, and water are unnecessary for the Spirit to do its work. But they are signs to us that the Holy Spirit is at work in the candidate. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit does not work in the lives of little children, or neglects their souls?

Perhaps some of us like to have a sign that the Holy Spirit is working in their children, just as we like to have a sign that the Holy Spirit is working in us. There's nothing wrong, or "unBiblical" about that.
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
One has to wonder then... what made the Holy Spirit wait? Obviously being cleansed of leprosy would be sign enough, and far more powerful than wet clothes. Why did the Spirit wait until the seventh dip?

Obedience.

Romans 6 is such a great reference to what baptism IS, and I would like to focus on part of it here:

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. NIV

Now, as for the removal of dirt: lets visit another scripture:

I Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. NIV

Again... a simple obedience to God which is a pledge of a good conscience.

Obviously, it's human nature to argue our point: just look at Naaman. We always question simple demands when we don't fully understand how they work. Baptism is truly a miracle. In one simple act of faith, we obey God and receive a new heart. We really can't take credit for it, because it's the Spirit who does all the work. Wow. We can try and tell God that our decision is not really required or that our parent's can decide for us, or that the rivers in our country are far cleaner. But all he is looking for is a simple act of obedience: Repent and be baptised everyone of you calling on his name.

You are almost there... just don't stop after the sixth dip.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
One has to wonder then... what made the Holy Spirit wait? Obviously being cleansed of leprosy would be sign enough, and far more powerful than wet clothes. Why did the Spirit wait until the seventh dip?
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Your whole argument points to our action as the efficacious factor: our obedience. Maybe the Holy Spirit didn't wait until the seventh dip. Maybe Naaman's mind remained closed to what the Holy Spirit had accomplished until after he had been dipped seven times.

Yes. Baptism is an act of obedience, whereby we acknowledge what the Holy Spirit has already done in us. That obedience may be done by the parents for the child, for whom they are responsible.
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
sojourner said:
Your whole argument points to our action as the efficacious factor: our obedience.
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Nah... that's what you WANT me to say. That's how you are putting it, but it clearly contradicts what I believe.

OK... Is Osama'a heart clean? Why or why not?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
NetDoc said:
Nah... that's what you WANT me to say. That's how you are putting it, but it clearly contradicts what I believe.

OK... Is Osama'a heart clean? Why or why not?
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I wouldn't want to hazard a judgment. And it's non sequitur to the argument here.

You said that baptism is a simple act of obedience. I say it's a profound act of the Holy Spirit.

 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
NetDoc said:
Almost. I say it's BOTH!
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But yet, you say that the act of obedience cannot be performed by parents for the child, who can do nothing for itself? They have to feed the child, clothe the child, shelter the child, soothe the child, nurture the child, aid in the child's physical and mental development. These are all things that parents do for their child and the well-being of the child. Why should they not perform this act of obedience as a sign that they acknowledge the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in the life of the child, for the child, who cannot do it for itself? If the Holy Spirit is at work, and it's the Holy Spirit who's efficacious, why does it really matter who does the act?

So...we can pray for other people, but we can't make an act of obedience for other people (who are our responsibility)?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
NetDoc said:
Don't hide behind being PC.

Pick any murderer you want.
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God doesn't love the murderer as much as God loves you? Why? Because he's a murderer? Doesn't that place the existence of grace solely on the acts and intentions of the murderer?
 
Elvendon

Elvendon

Mystical Tea Dispenser
Netdoc? May I ask you a question that may seem incredibly random?

Have you bought any south american hardwood furniture recently? If so, do you know whether it was renewably sourced?
 
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