God's Existence

ChristineM · Jun 3, 2017

Regiomontanus said:
Those examples only negate a certain type of god, not the existence of a creator in general.

So not the creator god who created the mosquito to kill his prized creation?

Not the creator who created leukemia and created incident children to suffer and die from a disease be created?

Not the creator who created that great gerbil to transmit his created disease of bubonic plaque to his greatest creation?

And of course, not the creator god that no one, ever has provided one iota of evidence for his existence?

ChristineM · Jun 3, 2017

Laughing Coyote said:
Your questions presume a certain preconception of God, as something that ought to intervene to mediate suffering or discomfort of humans, but that no such God intervenes neither proves nor disproves existence of God. It just means that if there is God, it is not one that necessarily intervenes; or if there is sometimes intervention, then it is inscrutable.

If the ecosphere develops so as to provide potential for something, then there is a likelihood that it may exist. Mosquitoes, as well as ticks and vampire bats, exist because there are warm-blooded mammals that can provide energy by taking some of that blood. The diseases we get from them come to us because these bloodsuckers provided useful hosts. We call life's creating niches. Leukemia exists because errors occur in DNA replication at a regular rate, but then also so do all other forms of life exist for that reason as well. The mutations provide possibilities, but the possibilities provided are not necessarily those preferred by the particular organism in a particular time and place (for example, sickle cell disease allows a population to flourish, but with the sacrifice of a particular percentage of its members for whom its consequences are tragic. Can say the same thing for war, which we often into enter into with patriotic alacrity, even glorifying the tragedy that occurs when it serves our purposes.)

Worship of God does seem to indicate what is called God exists as a force of some sort, but not necessarily in the terms by which people worship it. Belief in God provides solace in the face of pain and suffering, even if there is no God that actually intervenes. Many believers try to explain your answer by saying that God gives us suffering so we can learn to transcend it, but such transcendence can come without a belief in God too -- for example, a mountain climber overcoming adversity encountered in climbing a mountain, while the risk of adversity a person allows him/herself gives the rest of us sense of the expansiveness of the human spirit and the powers of the universe when a particular climber gets killed while trying to overcome such adversity.

They are not questions

Nor do they assume anything other than that claimed by the average abrahamic god worshipper, i.e. that the god they worship is the creator god which by logical definition means he created all, not just the good.

Sure any are comforted by their belief in god, that is up to the individual. No argument there.

Laughing Coyote · Jun 3, 2017

FearGod said:
Imagine if all children come with leukemia, if few have it then why not a lot of them
or all of them, nature doesn't have a control over the creation.

I think such few cases of abnormalities should be regard as a sign for God and not the contrary.

Actually it is a sign of several other things that don't require God. Mutations are relatively rare, the body is pretty good at fixing genetic mistakes when they happen, and environment affects people differently. I'll add that elevated rates of leukemia and brain tumors are found around golf courses (due to pesticide and herbicides) and night lights left on in children's rooms (due to reduced melatonin). How come God hasn't done anything about golf courses and night lights?

Saint Frankenstein · Jun 3, 2017

I believe in a multiplicity of Gods. It's self-evident to me through the workings of Nature and my own experiences. Unlike what some think, Abrahamic monotheism or atheism are not the only choices!

Laughing Coyote · Jun 3, 2017

new said:
Thank you for replying
what is supernatural ? something which science can not explain ? But don't you think that science is still evolving and we learn various new facts everyday in science so why someone who experience something beyond science which our scientist know until now can not be real or true?
what is god or who is god according to you?

There are good reasons for belief in supernatural. Nature itself has many powers that we poorly understand but which are essential to the viability of human life. People often recognized powers at work and as means of recognition of them they give supernatural explanations to them: forests maintaining water in fields is explained by forest spirits, cows providing productive power in agriculture comes to their special relationship with the creator making them sacred, rivers are gods, mountains are sacred, their clans are given mythical origins (even the documents we call constitutions are similarly founding myths that are given almost supernatural significance) and so on. A scientific worldview reduced such beliefs to superstitions and with immense lack of understanding cut down forests, diverted rivers and so forth. Water tables dried up, for example in Rajastan, India, when the British diverted rivers and let traditional water collection and irrigation systems fall apart. Rain stops falling where once there rain forests have been cut, and the fertility of the land dies as the fertility of the land is tropical areas is locked up in trees. Elements of our world and the world as a whole indeed are deities in the sense they create and sustain us through combinations of forces that we don't understand. These are just two examples, but I could go on for days and in many different circumstances. For traditional peoples, including Biblical ones, the world is alive and thus they worship it like a deity. And yes, science yet explains very little. We have been very good at describing particular things. But when you get to higher levels of understanding, ecosystems, communities, and particularly the ecosphere, our strong suit, as Wes Jackson phrases it, is our ignorance. If we recognized ourselves as Homo ignorare extinctor (the ignorant destroyer) rather than Homo sapiens sapiens (wise, wise) we might have a chance.

MPHJackson · Jun 3, 2017

Yes I do. There are just too many coincidences in this world (such as Earth being able to sustain life) for at least some deity not to exist. There are several other reasons (one of them being just raised with faith) that I believe in God.

Murad · Jun 3, 2017

new said:
do you feel god exists? why do u feel that god exists?
or
do u feel that god does not exist? why do u feel that god does not exist?

Really I not only feel that good exist, I believe he is exist, and I can realize his existence with everything around us from the cell up to universe.

questfortruth · Jun 3, 2017

new said:
do you feel god exists? .....

I know, what God exists. Look the proof in the link:

leibowde84 · Jun 3, 2017

new said:
do you feel god exists? why do u feel that god exists?
or
do u feel that god does not exist? why do u feel that god does not exist?

I would say that the only reasonable answer is I don't know. Withholding judgment due to lack of evidence either way.

abdul rahim · Jun 4, 2017

new said:
do you feel god exists? why do u feel that god exists?
or
do u feel that god does not exist? why do u feel that god does not exist?

Whether we are religious or not, feeling of God existence is human nature.

Nature in the sense that human is created that way, he knows there is a Supreme Being far greater than him.

james bond · Jun 4, 2017

Laughing Coyote said:
But without Satan could there be God? Without contrasting colors can there be a rainbow? Without sorrow could there be joy? Without tears could there be laughter? Without death can there be life? Without different sounds could there be words? All things in the universe exist due to differentials. All forces are countered by opposing forces. Nature works by negative feed-backs. Satan by necessity is God's accomplice. This is expressed at its most essential core by the Laws of Thermodynamics.

(Personally I am a great fan of the Devil's "Letters from Earth" translated to us by the Msr. Mark Twain. And I enjoyed his Screwtape Letters given to us by Msr. C. S. Lewis.)

I'm not sure what you mean, but I think there can NOT just be God and his followers. I suppose what you mean is will everyone be included? I do not think so with free will. If we were all robots or some greater force made us worship and be grateful to God, then that's the only way we would.

budha3 · Jun 4, 2017

new said:
Thank you for replying
what is supernatural ? something which science can not explain ? But don't you think that science is still evolving and we learn various new facts everyday in science so why someone who experience something beyond science which our scientist know until now can not be real or true?
what is god or who is god according to you?

God is Light energy, just as we are Light energy, but we are encased in a physical body. We are God's children, because we all came from him; even Isis. The problem with misconceptions is that some do not know that we are all God;s children. God is the One and the many. The many is Us. Did not Jesus mention that we are Gods? Isis wants to kill the infedels , but they do not realize that they are actually killing their own brothers and sisters. It is not only Isis, because the people who killed slaves didn't realize it either. God tries to teach us this by showing us that our blood is the same color. It is not impossible to see God. But you have to want to see Him as "sincerily" as a choking man wants air. "blessed are the pure (sincere) in heart, for they shall see God" God is all about learning, He made some Black, White, Latino, Arab, not to show us that we are different, but to allow us to understand or to learn that we are the same. but the most important aspect of God is that He is pure Love. It is a love, not as most of us can comprehend. With God Love is an entity ,it is alive.

gurthbruins · Jun 4, 2017

new said:
do you feel god exists? why do u feel that god exists?
or
do u feel that god does not exist? why do u feel that god does not exist?

I see a question here. There is no meaning in it until at least two people can agree on what they mean by god. I am not here to assume what the questioner means, or to define the words he uses myself. So - and I realise I might be defeating the intentions of the questioner, which are not necessarily to get a useful answer, but just to provoke an argument... please define what you mean by god. Does this god have a name?

gurthbruins · Jun 4, 2017

Nakosis said:
What I feel is that when folks feel an "supernatural" presence. What their experiencing is a type of dualism cause by the coexistence of the conscious and subconscious mind.

IOW, the experience of God is real for folks but the cause is not the supernatural. The cause is the subconscious mind. This provides an explanation for spiritual experiences and God which doesn't require the supernatural. It also seems to be the most supportable explanation from my own investigations.

This explanations seems to me to be beyond reproach, it's as good as any other. (y)

gurthbruins · Jun 4, 2017

Duke_Leto said:
I feel that an entity exists which created the universe. I doubt it's a person in the sense that most gods people worship are distinct "people" in a sense, with preferences, desires, anthropomorphic characteristics; I don't claim to know anything about it, but it seems unlikely that it's a thing humans can relate to. The only reason I have for believing that is because it's difficult for me to accept that the universe has always existed, or somehow came from nothing.

As it is though, this belief doesn't particularly affect my life. Because the belief in such a god doesn't affect how I live, I feel justified calling myself an atheist, in the same sense that agnostic atheists consider themselves atheists despite not believing that a god doesn't exist.

Fair enough, I agree the entity is not likely to be a person. I believe in God, but not that he created the universe. Such an opinion helps not, because if the universe needs a creator, then so does God. Who or what created God? reveals the sterility of your explanation. If you say that God created himself, then I'd say why could not then the universe have created itself. The mistake you are making is to assume that everything must have a beginning. You have no concept of eternity, which can not logically have a beginning.

gurthbruins · Jun 4, 2017

Windwalker said:
I feel God exists because I feel God.

Exactly. The uselessness of your answer reveals the uselessness of the question. Yet your answer is no worse, and can be no worse, than any other.
God is the universe. By definition of "uni", there can be nothing outside the universe. Not even empty space. So everything is in the universe, in God. As we are in God, we naturally become saturated with the divine presence. Certainly this God can penetrate us and everything else, so separation between the whole and a part is impossible. Remember, Isaiah said everything is from God,

gurthbruins · Jun 4, 2017

Polymath257 said:
No, those are not the only possibilities. Not by a LONG shot.

There could have been a creation committee.
There could be natural laws that allow for the formation of the universe naturally.
The universe could have always existed.
The universe could be 'necessarily existent'.
Etc.

A mathematically false calculation because it assumes the independence of probabilities known to be dependent. The rest of this paragraph is thereby bunk.

We see events with lower probabilities all the time in statistical mechanics. For example, look at the distribution of molecules in a room at any one point in time. What is the probability of exactly that distribution? It is far, far smaller than even the 1 part on 10^10^123 you gave.

No, it does not. It claims that all are descended from a species that was single celled. That is very different.

Humans *are* apes. In fact, we are great apes. We have also found many links between us and the other apes.

Lucy is a legitimate fossil of a human ancestor.

Evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis. So, while abiogenesis is an interesting question that is being actively investigated, it has no impact on evolution, per se.

Other lies deleted.

A thorough and interesting reply.
I would say that neither of the two possibilities first referred to is possible.
That the universe always existed seems to me the only possibility. The third of your possibilities, though all of your possibilities are not mutually exclusive.
Strictly speaking, in any situation there is only ONE possible continuation. This is fully determined by the laws of cause and effect. When we speak of other possibilities, that is simply an expression admitting our ignorance of all the prevailing causes.

FearGod · Jun 4, 2017

Laughing Coyote said:
Actually it is a sign of several other things that don't require God. Mutations are relatively rare, the body is pretty good at fixing genetic mistakes when they happen, and environment affects people differently. I'll add that elevated rates of leukemia and brain tumors are found around golf courses (due to pesticide and herbicides) and night lights left on in children's rooms (due to reduced melatonin). How come God hasn't done anything about golf courses and night lights?

What makes the mutations to be rare, just happened to be so?
What if bad mutations happening every now and then and being out of control?
How things are being controlled?how the inanimate nature can fix it without any plans?
Do you think "just happened to be so" is a rational answer?

LuisDantas · Jun 4, 2017

FearGod said:
What makes the mutations to be rare, just happened to be so?

Mutations are rare because they are part of a self-replicating mechanism that has gone through quite a lot of interactions already.

It is a logical, necessary consequence of the very reality of the situation, as would be readily apparent to anyone with a modicum of experience with mathematics, biology or engineering.

What if bad mutations happening every now and then and being out of control?

These are rather vague terms. In any case, the most nocive mutations, naturally, tend to harm the organism to such an extent that it fails to survive and therefore aren't passed along to further generations. There are exceptions.

I have no idea what you mean by "out of control". What would the control even be in this context?

How things are being controlled?

Are they?

how the inanimate nature can fix it without any plans?

What would inanimate nature be? Is it any different from just plain nature? If so, in which ways?

Your question seems to be an attempt at a request for an explanation of natural selection, but it seems half-formed, what with the assumptions that there is a place or need for "fixing" and "plans".

Do you think "just happened to be so" is a rational answer?

It may easily be the only rational answer, yes.

sayak83 · Jun 4, 2017

new said:
do you feel god exists? why do u feel that god exists?
or
do u feel that god does not exist? why do u feel that god does not exist?

My personal experiences suggest that an entity that transcends both matter and spirit, being the foundation and substantive cause of all phenomenaof all realms, material, mental, moral... does exist. Based on my readings of Hindu philosophy, I would identify it as Brahman. I have not experienced it as a person, but personhood can be projected onto it.

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