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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

kjw47

Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? The RCC didn't have a military in the war, nor did they support Hitler. Matter of fact, Hitler gained less support in Catholic Bavaria than in the Protestant areas in the north to the point that he refused to go to that area after a while.

BTW, were not talking about WWII but dealing with Catholic theology, so it seems you're just grasping for straws.



Most of Hitlers armies were young catholic men--If the teachers told them not to kill for Hitler( especially against their own brothers in Christ who stood on the allied side) no ww2 would have occurred--55 million slaughtered. After awhile Catholicism saw their error--yet still allowed the killing to go on.
All who know and love Jesus, knows 100% for sure that Jesus would NEVER condone the brothers in Christ standing on opposite sides of a war of hatred-1Cor 1:10-- no division. Govts cause division--they stand in opposition to what Jesus stands for. The unfortunate reality is that it takes--throwing Jesus away to accomplish what Catholicism has done through the centuries--many other religions claiming to be Christian are lost in the same darkness.
 

eldios

Active Member
This post is intended to address a subject which has been argued a number of times. I have read some and briefly engaged some of those who reject the deity of Christ because they say that the Bible does not state the words “Jesus is God”. I believe this argument is fallacious, violating the word-concept fallacy. Also it demonstrates a presupposed bias when so many Scriptures identify Christ as divine, attributing to Him many of the divine names given to God. I do not intend to deal with the many New Testament texts ascribing Old Testament references of Jehovah to Jesus Christ. Nor the many references equating Him as Lord in the N.T. with Kurios (Lord) in the Septuagint. I will only use the Apostle John in this post in whose writings reveal the Deity of Christ.

Revelation 19:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

This section in Revelation is dealing with the coming of Christ. The Apostle John assigns a descriptive name to Jesus “The Word of God” (Gr. ho logos ho theos). This identifying Christ as “Logos”, the “Word”, is also used by John in the Prologue to his Gospel: John 1:1-18

John 1:1-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Note verse 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. The verb “was” (Gr: en, imperfect of eimi). The continuous action in the past of the imperfect tense of the verb indicates to us that whenever the “beginning” was, the Word was already in existence. “and the Word was with God…the Logos has been in communion and communication with God for eternity as well. The verb is the same as the first clause, and the preposition pros (“with”) pictures for us face-to-face communication. The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. We have the same situation in 1.1c.The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. Notice that the term Logos has the article ho while the term theos does not. This tells us that the subject of the clause is the Logos. Hence, we could not translate the phrase “and God was the Word” for that would make the wrong term the subject of the clause. Hence, the term “God” is the predicate nominative, the nature of the Logos is the nature of God, just as the nature of God in 1 John 4:8 was that of love. Now, John does emphasize the term “God” by placing it first in the clause – this is not just a “divine nature” as in something like the angels have – rather, it is truly the nature of Deity that is in view here (hence my translation as “Deity”). Dr. Kenneth Wuest, long time professor of Greek at Moody Bible Institute rendered the phrase, “And the Word was as to His essence absolute Deity.”

What he wishes to emphasize here is the personal existence of the Logos in some sense of distinction from “God” (i.e., the Father). The Logos is not the Father nor vice-versa – there are two persons under discussion here.

John 1:1 tells us some extremely important things. First, we see that the Logos is eternal, uncreated. Secondly, we see that there are two Divine Persons in view in John’s mind – the Father and the Logos. Thirdly, there is eternal communication and relationship between the Father and the Logos. Finally, we see that the Logos shares the nature of God.

John goes on to gives to Jesus another descriptive name: “The Light”, the “True Light”, the “Light of the world”.

Verse 14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The Word did not eternally exist in the form of flesh; rather, at a particular point in time He became flesh. This is the incarnation.

Verse 18: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB

He first asserts that no one has “seen God at any time.” Now, the Old Testament tells us that men have indeed seen God in the past – Isaiah saw God on His throne in Isaiah 6; Abraham walked with Yahweh in Genesis 18. So what does John mean? He defines for us that the one he is speaking of here is the Father – that is, no one has seen the Father at any time. OK, then who was it that was seen by Isaiah or by Abraham?

John tells us – the unique God. Here the phrase is monogenes theos. There is a textual variant here. Many manuscripts have monogenes huios (unique Son) – and the KJV follows this tradition. But the strongest reading is “unique God.” How are we to understand this?

The term “monogenes” is used only of Jesus in the Gospel of John. Jesus is here described as the “unique God” – John is not asserting a separate deity from the Father. Rather, this ‘unique God” is the one who is eternally in fellowship with the Father. Even when discussing the “separateness” of the Father and the Son as persons, John is quick to emphasize the unity of the divine Persons in their eternal fellowship together. Here John teaches, again, the eternal and central fact of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The unique God makes the Father known – He “explains’ Him. What we know of the Father we know because of the revelation of the Son. We know what the Father is like because we know what Jesus Is like. Here the Son’s function as the revelator of the Father is clearly set forth, and this is directly in line with the usage of the term Logos in the Prologue. Other New Testament writers use the same theme – for Paul Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” and for the writer of Hebrews Jesus is ‘the express image of His (the Father’s) person…” Both writers (or maybe just one writer if Paul indeed wrote Hebrews) are emphasizing the role of Jesus as the revealer of the Father. In the same way, this answers the above question regarding who it was, in John’s opinion, that was seen of Abraham and Isaiah. We have already had occasion to note that John will directly assert that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in the person of Yahweh (12:39ff), and could it be that this is the explanation for Jesus’ statement in John 8:56? Did Abraham “see the day of Jesus” when he walked with Him by the oaks of Mamre (Gen. 18:1)?

The conclusion is obvious throughout these few verses:

If Jesus is The Word. Rev.19:13

And if that same Word is God. Jn.1:1-18

Then Jesus is God.

Special thanks to James R White

John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

The flesh named Jesus is not the Word of God but the words he spoke for his Father in heaven ( invisible spirit ) is called the Word of God.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
They killed the members of their own religion on the allied side for Adolf Hitler--a mass murderer---not the Jesus of the bible--his opposite. Their actions prove they are far removed.

So when you're at a Kingdom Hall or Assembly, do you separate German Witnesses from the rest of the congregation?

Let's correct your next post then, shall we?:

Most of Hitlers armies were young catholic German men--If the teachers told them not to kill for Hitler( especially against their own brothers in Christ who stood on the allied side) no ww2 would have occurred--55 million slaughtered. After awhile Catholicism Germany saw their error--yet still allowed the killing to go on.
All who know and love Jesus, knows 100% for sure that Jesus would NEVER condone the brothers in Christ standing on opposite sides of a war of hatred-1Cor 1:10-- no division. Govts cause division--they stand in opposition to what Jesus stands for. The unfortunate reality is that it takes--throwing Jesus away to accomplish what Catholicism Germany has done through the centuries--many other religions nationalities claiming to be Christian are lost in the same darkness.

I hear Costa Rica has never been in a war so Witnesses from there must proudly hold their heads over others in your congregation, especially the Germans. Is this true?

Or do you still hold them accountable for your Organization's actions, like the "Declaration of Facts" which for all practical purposes threw the Jews under the bus?

Look, we all know the urge for religious bigotry runs strong and deep in your Organization kjw, but let's try to stick with thread theme.

For example, tell us again how we can quickly determine God from god through the use of capital letters.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Miriam Webster's dictionary definition for declare: "to make known formally, officially, or explicitly" which is not what Jesus does. He specifically avoids saying who or what he is on multiple occasions, so it matters that he does not make a declaration and instead asks other people "Who do you say that I am?"

"I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." John 8:24

Jesus said to them 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.' So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and He went out of the Temple.' John 8:58-59

"I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may know that I AM." John 13:19

"Jesus said to them I AM. Judas, who betrayed Him, was standing with them. When Jesus said them I AM, they drew back and fell to the ground." John 18:5-6

He not asking anything in these verses nor does it appear that He trying to avoid anything. But is definitely making a clear and emphatic formal, official, explicit, declaration of who He is. Recognized fully as recorded, especially demonstrated in the 2nd and last reference.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member

Well, how about asking Jesus himself? Once, as Jesus was praying for his disciples, he asked the Lord to sanctify them by God's Truth as God's Word is the Truth. (John 17:17) Besides being the Word of God the Truth, the Psalmist said that, "Thy Word is a Lamp to my feet and a light to my path." (Psalm 119:105) Now, the bottom line is to figure who has the Truth aka the Word of God. If you read Psalm 147:19,20, the truth is that the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on the planet.




I thought about that for a while... and I'm not sure I can agree (although there is a thread of truth--just not the whole rope)

In Exodus 19
3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel:
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,
6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

The whole of Israel was supposed to be a kingdom of priests... to whom? To the whole of the earth. The whole of the nation of Israelites, as you said, was given the Word of God... but it wasn't to hoard it but to be the priests to the whole of God's earth.

Again, G-d speaks through Isaish and says "
42:6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,"

As the carriers of the Word of God, it was suppose to be a lamp to the feet to all people as the seed of Abraham was to bless all nations and not just his descendants.

But then they built an idol while Moses was with G-d and it was whittled down to just the Levites. Again, sin and disobedience eventually caused Israel to loose their capacity to be the light of the world until the Messiah was to come.

At that point, He (Jesus--the light of the world), began a new covenant where all people's are reached with a new priesthood thus fulfilled the promise to Abraham to the nations.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yes, but I am not God, am I? When they say the problem is unsolved, they mean the problem of being God and not God at the same time.

But between us. Don't you see how all that is a mega hyper complicated rationalization of an idea logically ill conceived from the start?

Look at my solution: that makes no sense. Nothing of what has been claimed ever happened.

Doesn't it sound simpler? A bit like removing the hypothesis of the luminiforous ether in physics. People were complicating things beyond necessity to still make sense of it, until someone said it does not exist.

And everything became crystal clear. And much simpler.

Ciao

- viole
I found it easy to understand.

I am an eternal spirit being while still in living a flesh that is will die. I am a spiritually alive being yet still fighting a dead flesh. Two parts and yet with different destinies. Or a prince yet still under tutors and under the dominion of others yet still going to be King over them all.

Sometimes we are the ones complicating it.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
It is not verified at all that the "Great Commission" was delivered by Jesus. Considering that the gospel of Matthew was authored by a Hellenist former disciple of Paul's, it is quite obvious that Jesus did not have any thing to do with the NT. (Mat. 9:9) This quote is an evidence that Jesus' Apostle known by the name of Matthew never wrote that gospel. Besides, if you read Mat. 10:5,6, Jesus did not like Gentiles, especially if they were of the Samaritan kind.

Would you care to substantiate any of these interesting? opinions with reputable, scholarly citations?
 

neologist

Member
Is Jesus God?
Well . . . .
To whom did he pray?
Who resurrected Jesus? Or, are you saying he did not really die? . . .

On the subject of sacrifice:

What parent would not willingly sacrifice himself or herself in order to spare the child? This is the essence of Jesus' sacrifice and further proof of his identity separate from his father.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Yes, The NWT corrected all the errors translated in by Catholicism--all originals were gone by the time protestants translated--Catholicism translating remained and Hebrew translating. Hebrew translating contradicts Catholicism translating.
Example--trinity teachers use--I am that I am from the ot to try to say Jesus was claiming to be God by saying -I AM-- But reality--In the real Hebrew--I will be what I will be is the correct translation of that Hebrew statement---many things like this to try and prove a council made up trinity God---Fact--No trinity was taught at the first council of Nicea-325) it was added later at another council--it is not truth.

Nicea specifically dealt with the deity and eternality of Jesus Christ against Arianism and also affirmed the Trinity against Monarchianism. It went through some revisions concluding, I believe, with the Council of Constantinople 381 AD.
Which is commonly referred to as the Nicean Creed.

Later in 451 the council of Chalcedon rejected the heresies of Apollinaris and Nestorius. The council anethematized the who taught that Jesus had only one nature and those who taught that His two natures were mixed. It went on to describe the Hypostatic union.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
"I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." John 8:24

Jesus said to them 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.' So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and He went out of the Temple.' John 8:58-59

"I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may know that I AM." John 13:19

"Jesus said to them I AM. Judas, who betrayed Him, was standing with them. When Jesus said them I AM, they drew back and fell to the ground." John 18:5-6

He not asking anything in these verses nor does it appear that He trying to avoid anything. But is definitely making a clear and emphatic formal, official, explicit, declaration of who He is. Recognized fully as recorded, especially demonstrated in the 2nd and last reference.
The "I Am" is only part of what Jesus teaches, because he also teaches his disciples to deny our own existence. When he says "I am" in John it means the same as "Deny yourself and take up your cross" in Matthew, though Matthew does not share John's terminology nor does John share Matthew's. What unites the two is that they are about the same teacher, Jesus, who is teaching the same people the same things. In Matthew and Luke he explicitly says "You must deny yourselves." In John he says it this way "I am." They are sides of the same currency. You cannot have one without the other.

I also suggest that you have not at all managed to squeeze John into a declaration that Jesus is God. You simply cannot I think, and all this effort you are making is itself evidence that there is no such declaration. Personally I think the evidence leans towards him not claiming to be God, however I do not object to you or insist that you must change your mind, much as I would prefer it. It occurs to me that I do not exist, so I cannot have an objection that matters. To the degree that I believe in my own existence I am in denial of Christ's. Its like Highlander: There can be only one.

Paul: "(NIV) I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20) Here is Paul teaching the same principle. We do not exist, though we live we are crucified and only Christ now lives. This is denial of self and it is Jesus "I am."

I think James says it this way "(NIV) Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business." (James 1:9-11) James is a letter that focuses upon the practical aspect of how to go about self-denial. Matthew straight forwardly demands it, and John describes it as part of a new creation of which we are all part. Paul's epistles build on that.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Is Jesus God?
Well . . . .
To whom did he pray?
Who resurrected Jesus? Or, are you saying he did not really die? . . .

On the subject of sacrifice:

What parent would not willingly sacrifice himself or herself in order to spare the child? This is the essence of Jesus' sacrifice and further proof of his identity separate from his father.
I think that these types of questions (that really don't seek an answer) are simply the statements that one uses as a catch all.

I have no problem with you believing as you do, but wouldn't it be easier just to say "this is what I believe"?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
"I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." John 8:24

Jesus said to them 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.' So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and He went out of the Temple.' John 8:58-59

"I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may know that I AM." John 13:19

"Jesus said to them I AM. Judas, who betrayed Him, was standing with them. When Jesus said them I AM, they drew back and fell to the ground." John 18:5-6

He not asking anything in these verses nor does it appear that He trying to avoid anything. But is definitely making a clear and emphatic formal, official, explicit, declaration of who He is. Recognized fully as recorded, especially demonstrated in the 2nd and last reference.
Really, quite simple and quite direct.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
The "I Am" is only part of what Jesus teaches, because he also teaches his disciples to deny our own existence. When he says "I am" in John it means the same as "Deny yourself and take up your cross" in Matthew, though Matthew does not share John's terminology nor does John share Matthew's. What unites the two is that they are about the same teacher, Jesus, who is teaching the same people the same things. In Matthew and Luke he explicitly says "You must deny yourselves." In John he says it this way "I am." They are sides of the same currency. You cannot have one without the other.

I also suggest that you have not at all managed to squeeze John into a declaration that Jesus is God. You simply cannot I think, and all this effort you are making is itself evidence that there is no such declaration. Personally I think the evidence leans towards him not claiming to be God, however I do not object to you or insist that you must change your mind, much as I would prefer it. It occurs to me that I do not exist, so I cannot have an objection that matters. To the degree that I believe in my own existence I am in denial of Christ's. Its like Highlander: There can be only one.

Paul: "(NIV) I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20) Here is Paul teaching the same principle. We do not exist, though we live we are crucified and only Christ now lives. This is denial of self and it is Jesus "I am."

I think James says it this way "(NIV) Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business." (James 1:9-11) James is a letter that focuses upon the practical aspect of how to go about self-denial. Matthew straight forwardly demands it, and John describes it as part of a new creation of which we are all part. Paul's epistles build on that.

Since you "don't exist" your post is blank. Yes?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Since you "don't exist" your post is blank. Yes?
I think it doesn't work like that. I think James shows ways that denial of self works in practice, and it doesn't involve being invisible. I think you are getting tired of this conversation, however.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I think it doesn't work like that. I think James shows ways that denial of self works in practice, and it doesn't involve being invisible. I think you are getting tired of this conversation, however.

I am tired of nonsense. Your post does absolutely nothing to refute my propositions or invalidate my syllogisms. It is simply a non-response in a logical debate forum.
 
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neologist

Member
I think that these types of questions (that really don't seek an answer) are simply the statements that one uses as a catch all. . . .
The questions most certainly have answers - answers the trinitarian is unable to reconcile.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You would think, to a rational mind. Perhaps better, to a mind set free from being turned inward and enabled to perceive the truth of God's word.
I still remember reading the Bible and not absorbing any spiritual information. After the born-again moment, the words came alive.

I liken it to a new language. I understood the world's language because I was born into it but the Heavenly language was foreign to me. Being "born again" caused me to be birthed into His Kingdom and thus His language became alive as a baby naturally learns the language in the nation he/she is birthed into.
 
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