Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

• Is there an actual place called "Hell"? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  Why was Hell made? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  Is there anyone in Hell today? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  Will there literally be a burning fire in Hell? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  What should you be willing to do to stay out of Hell? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  Why does God allow innocent people to suffer? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  The Good News - How to be saved from Hell. [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  How do you know the Bible is true? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  Can a saved person ever be lost? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]
  What is the eternal destiny of an infant who dies? [SIZE=-1]Answer[/SIZE]

bibleonly said:

Truth101 said:….As I said these words you are inquiring about are english words. The question at hand is "what is the Hebrew "olam" and the Greek "aion" and its adjective "aionios" true definitions?

I have given you a vast amount of scriptural proof that these words and their usage never apply to that which is eternal

According to your definition, how long is ‘owlam and aionios? Since you say these words NEVER applies to that which is eternal.

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joeboonda said:

You probably have purchased some sort of insurance--first, theft, car or personal liability--you name it. Insurance is a multibillion dollar business. But have you ever stopped to think that the whole business is built on the one word--MAYBE. I get my car insured. I'm not looking for an accident. I don't expect one. I'm going to try not to have one, but maybe I will, and it would be awfully nice to be covered. Hospitilizations? You don't expect to be sick, you're not planning to be sick, but maybe you will be, and boy, the hospital will take you to the cleaner if you're not ready.

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Insurance is definitely a good move

To the person who finds the whole subject of Hell and judgment distasteful, and who refuses to believe it, even if Jesus Christ taught it, I ask the question: What about that little word "maybe"? Maybe there is a Hell.

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I was a hell believing Christian for 22 years. My reasons for not believing in it (eternal torment in flames) is not a distaste for it. It is because it is not scriptural. It is heresy to teach it and those who believe it are indoctrinated to believe it because they have not truly searched the scriptures for themselves. The world is indoctrinated with this blasphemous teaching whether secular or not. My belief or lack thereof of an eternal place of torment has nothing to do with my salvation (from aionious death or age abiding death). If there was a "maybe" I would consider but there is no "maybe". It does not exist.

"Maybe" your car will have a wreck, and because of the little word "maybe" you'll spend hundreds of dollars on car insurance. And yet you'll walk around town without ETERNAL life insurance. You walk the street, cross the highways, in a world of crime and terrorism and potential accidents all over the place, yet you gamble with eternity! You are living one big risk 24 hours a day! It just doesn't make much sense, does it?

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What makes you think I am gambling with my "eternity"? How am I living one big risk 24 hours a day. I trust in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I have assurance of salvation that many sit and doubt everyday (which I never doubt). My faith is real and my life is full of Joy in the Lord because the Christ I trust in is triumphent (He came to save ALL and ALL will be saved "to be testified IN DUE TIME". My fathers will, will be done in this world that none will parish but ALL will come to the knowledge of the truth and recieve salvation.

If there is no Hell, I've lost nothing; but what a benefit it is just to have the joy of the Lord, to know your sins are forgiven, to go to bed at night and to know that if you don't make it through the night, you'll wake up in Heaven! To have something forever settled. My it's great. That's finished business. Whatever comes my way, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).

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Your belief in hell will not assure you of anything. Are you saying that since you believe in hell you will not go there? Thats silly. For arguments sake lets say the definition of hell is correct, does ones belief in it or not determine His destiny? Of couse not.

Jesus taught about the reality of the fact of Hell.

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Jesus never even hinted of a place of ETERNAL torment. He taught about the reality of "hades"(the grave).

We may agree on different angles or interpretations in our understanding of it, but I just leave this with you.

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Truth is absolute. Having two different interpretations of something will rule out one or both. 1 plus 1 equals 2, not 3, not 4, not 5. There is one truth for everything. You can apply this to anything in life, infact it is a universal law.

Our Lord spoke about it in a very unfunny manner. He wept over communities going to judgment. He prayed in Gethsemane with strong crying and tears because He knew about all these realities for which He has provided a way of escape.

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My intentions are not to eliminate the judgment of God or His wrath. My intent is to eliminate any deception surrounding it. Gods wrath and judgment for the unbelievers is not eternal but age abiding. Judgment is real. The only difference is Gods judgment is always remedial. Its sole purpose is to correct or chastise. Always has been and always will be.

I hope that you have settled this issue, and that you've opened your heart and your life to Christ. Make yourself safe either way. If there is a Hell, you're safe. If there is no Hell, you still get the best out of this life. And you can't lose on a deal like that. Make sure today that your trust is in Christ.

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The issue is settled for me and I intend on bringing the good news of our triumphent Christ to all I meet. In the end God will be ALL IN ALL. Not ALL IN SOME. God has accomplished all He has set out to do through our Lord Jesus "to be testified in due time".

Related questions:

• Is there an actual place called "Hell"? Answer
  Why was Hell made? Answer
  Is there anyone in Hell today? Answer
  Will there literally be a burning fire in Hell? Answer
  What should you be willing to do to stay out of Hell? Answer
  How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Answer
  Why does God allow innocent people to suffer? Answer
  The Good News - How to be saved from Hell. Answer
  How do you know the Bible is true? Answer
  Can a saved person ever be lost? Answer
  What is the eternal destiny of an infant who dies? Answer

Author: Dr. Bruce W. Dunn of Grace Communications. Copyright © 1999, Grace Communications, All Rights Reserved. Printed copies of the booklet Hell: Fact or Fiction are available from the copyright owner.

www.ChristianAnswers.Net
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Gilbert AZ 85299

Christian Answers Network HOMEPAGE and DIRECTORY

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bibleonly said:

Posted 7/12/06

Its not about me side stepping, but a matter of making sure I hear out the matter before I answer I am just making sure before I answer that you have completely develop your human logic. I am asking these questions so that we would have your complete and through conclusion of the definition of these two words. So then, since your think they are silly question, then there must be no more that you can articulate.

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You continue to use this human logic nonsense as if it holds any value in discrediting anything I have to say. I am using grammar which is exactly what everyone uses scripturally or not to learn, speak, read, teach, etc. You imply that this is human logic. As if I attained my human ability to speak and understand and learn from some alien source. Are you saying that you lack logic and reason? Our translaters could not even write a sentence without first understanding grammar which is exactly what I am using to come to these conclusions.These were people who gave us these translations and although they did a pretty good job it was far from perfect. Ask any scholar or theologian or translater and he will tell you the same thing. The 1611KGV when in first print had over 10,000 mistakes. Since then they have corrected roughly 9000 of those. You do the math. Would you still say that these problems came from God since you believe that the translated versions must have been divinely inspired? It was obviously human logic and reason that caused the errors in the first place. What if we lived at the time these bibles were printed and we had one and someone told us of these errors? Would you believe them? Or would you say "nonsense, that is just human logic and reasoning speaking". Of course you would because thats exactly what you are saying now. So lets drop the human reasoning nonsense, it will not discredit one iota of fact.

But what you did say is, that the bible is void and doesn’t teach the concept of eternity, eternal, forever, everlasting, ever and ever.
And since you are saying that God is eternal, and that idea was learn outside the bible from an English dictionary, that man put together.

Your saying with your line of reason, that finite man, who has no concept of eternity, somehow defines a word that he has never experienced. And that Eternal God, whom you say you believe in, has nothing to say about the word in the bible. What a preposterous conclusion, but what can we expect from human logic. Rather than let the bible become our dictionary and let God (who is the very essence of Eternal) bring to us this word it’s meaning. And indeed he has through the words ‘owlam and aion.

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The only hint of anything eternal in the bible is when we read "before there was time" or "when there is time no more". This is the closest you will find to eternity. All of Gods dealings with mankind deal with the ages, period. How can you (not me) come to the deduction that because God never speaks on eternal matters that He is unaware of it? Yes "what a preposterous conclusion", your conclusion. Because God never speaks about computers, are we to conclude He is unaware of them? Silly.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts

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I guess you are exempt from this scripture, that God is not talking to you? You have complete understanding of the mind and thoughts of God. You know His ways. This borders on blasphemy for you to single your logic and reason from mine and concider it equal to Gods because God is saying this to me and you. Lets not get selfrighteous lest He sends the devil to buffet us lest we exalt ourselves above measure. I will reply to your next post as well.

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bibleonly said:

How long is the kindgom age? Answer: 1000 years. What happens at the end of it?
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.Up to this point we are told of the ages. The kingdom age comes to an end. What next?

Truth10:1 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of limited life. (inserting Truth101 definition)

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Here is a prime example of human logic and reasoning. "limited life" is not what aionios means. The scripture should read "you have the words of the age lasting life (kingdom age is what He is refering to). The life is not limited, its the age that it limited. I said there is not one single word which implies timelessness. Even Strongs exhastive concordance contradicts its own definitions of each of these words.
Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end." Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."Are these definitions good scholarship or religious bias?

Imagine defining the word "white" like this: "white, WHITE LIGHT, bright, maximum lightness, brilliant, blanch, off-white, shaded, light gray, dark gray, between light and dark, dark gray, dark, COAL BLACK." Does anyone see a problem with my definition of "white?" Does anyone see a problem with Strong's definition of "aion/aionios?"

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal (aionios) life.

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The word "world" in this passage is translated from the greek word "aion". The proper greek word for "world" is "kosmos". The text is saying that in this time he shall recieve an hundred fold but in the "aion"(age) to come, "aionios" "age abiding life"(refering to the kingdom) The kingdom is the next age and hence is another age after "this time"(the age we live in now).

We see clearly that the first half of this passage Jesus is talking about our earthly life, we all know is in time with and end in view. And then Jesus, using the word aionios is showing the contrast with this life to the one that is to come, which is without end.

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The next age is the kingdom (1000 years, not without end)

Truth10:1 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time,houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mother, and children, and lands, with presecutions; and in the world to come a life that ends.(inserting Truth101 definition)

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Another example of carnal human logic. Its not the life that ends but the age that comes to an end. This life as we know it comes to an end when the kingdom age comes and that life as we will know it will come to an end but we do not cease to exist.

Truth10:1 Jesus answered and said unto her, whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again; But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up with a limited supply of life.(inserting Truth101 definition)

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Again you submit words insinuating this is what I believe and you err again. First of all when "aionios life" is submitted into the text it is refering to the kingdom age. Just because Jesus is refering to an age that ends does not for a second limit the persons existance after the age has ended.

Clearly Truth101 inserted definitions perverts the scriptures to know end. Even a babe who is unskilled in the word of righteousness would not wrest the scripture to there own destruction. Oh I forgot, you don’t believe in eternal destruction!

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It is not my insertions that have perverted the scriptures it is your insertions. Those are your words and luckily I have corrected your attempt to pervert the context of the passage and then insist these are my words.

I am not finish with this post yet. I don’t what to overwhelm you all at once. Maybe this will be enough to come down from the wobbly throne of Man reason.

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The only wobbly throne of reason is your attempt to pervert my words by inserting your own words into passages and making the passages sound as rediculous as you can in a strawman attempt to discredit what I really said.

And see the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal (aidios) power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

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Aidios is the adjective of the noun "aei aei" and again the translaters gave the adjective a greater meaning than its noun. "aei aei" implies duration but not in an eternal sense (not that God or His power and Godhead are not eternal but this is not what the text is saying). It is defined as "continue" especially according to the context. So the adjective would and should be defined as "continued" or even "enduring" as in "His continueing (or enduring) power and Godhead. We can understand His continuing power and Godhead throughout history but ,how do we understand an "eternal" power and Godhead?" Rom1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen (His workings in the world since the creation of the world are clearly seen), being understood by the things that are made(His workings in the world are clearly seen by our physical eyes) , even his eternal(continueing) power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse they are without excuse because Gods continuing work since the creation of the world is clearly seen (visually) in the world).

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Truth101 said:

Anyone who wishes to believe that God will endlessly torture billions of His creation, consider the following. Writing in red are quotes from Ray Smith.

The "hell" as the English used it in everyday life in the 1600’s:
Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"
The "hell" of the 21st Century:
The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

Does anyone believe that these two definitions of "hell" have anything whatsoever in common with each other? Then how is it even in the realm of possibility that the Christian definition of hell today can be a translation for a word that is also to this day, translated three times as "pit," and thirty-one times as "grave.

Okay then, here are ten bold key words which define "hell." If these are the proper words and phrases to describe and define "hell" in our English Bibles, then we should find these ten words scattered all through the verses of Scripture which speak of sheol/grave/hell.
Let us now go through all 31 verses of Scripture in which the translated sheol into the English word hell, and count all of the times that we find the words: condemned souls, devils, eternal punishment, Satan, separation of God, evil, misery, discord or destruction, torment, anguish.
1. condemned souls is foundZERO times 2. devilsZERO times 3. eternal punishment (or punish alone)ZERO times 4. SatanZERO times 5. separation of GodZERO times 6. evilZERO times 7. miseryZERO times 8. discord or destructionZERO times 9. tormentZERO times10. anguishZERO times
Common sense seems to be absent here.

God Bless, Dave

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blueman said:

Jesus spoke frequently about eternal damnation in the New Testament and He was not referring to a grave whatsoever, but eternal separation from God. God does not sent people to hell, people send themselves to hell by free will. When yo reject God, you are living your life totally separate from Him. When we are all judged by God, He will honor those free will decisions to be separated from Him, but it will be an eternal separation. Hell and eternal separation are reality according to Scripture.

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bibleonly said:

Truth101 said: It was human methods and schemes that gave us our translation problems in the first place. I have appled scriptural principals to correct these problems of scripture you refuse to address.


Outline your scriptural principals for all to see! Show us what principals (methods) you have applied.

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Truth101 said:

Thanks for your OPINION. Have you not read any refuting proof in this thread?

Contrary to popular OPINION, Jesus spoke more on the Kingdom than He did on hades but this of course does not prove anything just as how frequently Jesus spoke of aionios death proves nothing. Seperation from God is a scriptural impossibility since it contradicts dozens of other scriptures which teach that there is nothing that can seperate us from God. Wherever we go He is there. All things have their life through Him.
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, areallthings: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (How do you suppose God will be all in all if the majority be seperated from Him?)

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (all things not some things. Again How can He gather all things in heaven and earth in Him if the majority be seperated from Him?)

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) ( He cant fill all if most are seperated)

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether theybe thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist ( How can anything or anyone exist outside of Him or seperated from Him? Without His power we would wither away..Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead (The church is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. They are not the onlyborn from the dead.They are promised life in the kingdom for 1000 years. After that God has not informed us of what is to come. The dead stay dead until their ressurection to aionios death for an time of correction to burn off all impurities. In God, not seperated from Him. God is the consuming fire.); that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased theFather that in him should all fullness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, Isay, whether theybe things in earth, or things in heaven.

According to all these scriptures there is nothing seperated from Him at all, infact absolutley everything will (in due time) be reconciled to Him. Absolutely nothing in creation is left out here.

Also lets look at another proof text.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.(This passage clearly defines itself. This is a grand boast of God to sin and death itself. Oh death, Oh grave, where is your victory? At this point if the majority of the human race who have ever lived are seperated from God and existing (outside of God's life sustaining power somehow) in an eternal bath of fire being tormented forever because of there sin then death and the grave could easily boast right back to God with a finger pointing directly at those suffering in eternal seperation from God.
Now if the MAJORITY be seperated from God and God manages to save only a FEW from this place than that would make Death and the Grave triumphent and victorious. How can you still give God the glory He is due if you still believe this nonsense? Do yourself a favor and meditate on this for awhile.)


As for free will you will need to pray about that one since this thread is on something else. I will start a freewill thread once I finish in this one.

God Bless, Dave

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The bible does say that nothing separates us from the love of God through Jesus Christ, which is something you so appropriately left out in that famous passage from Paul. Jesus did speak a great deal about the kingdom, because that was paramount to his primary goal and that was to provide eternal life to those who accepted and believed in Him as the Only Begotten Son of God. Those who reject Him, reject the Father and will not inherit eternal life according to Christ. This is not my opinion, it is written in the Biblical record. Just as Jesus spoke of a real kingdom, He spoke frequently about a real hell and condemnation to those that reject Christ. Try not to be so selective in your scriptural passages next time.

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Truth101 said:

Blueman said:

Actually it is shopping cart theology to assume God is talking about "eternal life" when He made the promise to overcomers concerning Aionios life. Life in His kingdom which lasts for how long? 1000 years, not eternity. I have left nothing out regarding all of what Paul says. He in fact is one of my favorite apostles. He covered areas of truth that most other apostles were not called to go.

Almost evertime you see the words aionios life mentioned in the new testament it is refering to the life that will be granted in the kingdom. Do you say this kingdom is for eternity? Or, Do you believe scripture when it says it comes to an end after 1000 years? Jesus made no promise of eternal life, He made a promise that those who overcome will enter this kingdom to rule and reign with Him for 1000 years, not eternity, period.

Maybe you SHOULD be more selective on how you study scripture. Scripture is given to us as a whole and should be understood as a whole.

Do you believe God is the almighty?
Do you believe that your will can superseed His?
Do you believe that The fathers will is that none should parish?
Do you believe that Christ has failed His mission given Him of His Father?
Do you believe that Christ is triumphent or a failure?
Do you believe that when the bible speaks of ALL THINGS in heaven and earth whether throne powers principalities dominions actually means what the scripture says that ALL things means everything in creation or do you believe that you can lighten the words enough to suit your own theology and call it proof that God cannot save all.

Do you believe that when God says He WILL be ALL IN ALL He actually means ALL or just a mere few?

Christians seem to give more glory to death and the grave and their theory of eternal torment than they do to God. Lets see who has the glory in the end.

1Co 15:55 O death, whereisthysting? O grave, whereisthy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

This is a grand boast of God to death and the grave. So if the majority of all humans who have ever lived go to ETERNAL death then how can God make this boast? If death is said to be eternal then how can death be swallowed up in VICTORY which will be the last ememy to be destroyed?

Now if there be billions upon billions who are in this ETERNAL death than death has a grand boast to make to God. For death itself defies the scripture and actually lives on and takes with it all these lost souls. The poeple in death will be that which death points to when God asks "oh death where is your sting?" Death will reply "why right here, look".

If even one soul is sentenced to ETERNAL death to perpetually be tormented forever than death always has its prisoner to boast of. Also death itself will not be swolloed up in anything since it is death that does the swollowing.

Scripture as a whole, not bits and pieces of mistranslated words and theories. Scripture cannot contradict itself and what you are claiming is the opposite of what scripture is teaching us. Who shall be carefull?
Me?, You? Orthodox Christianity?
If you seriously wanted to know the truth I would sit here all day and share what the lord has given me but the truth is you will not recieve this gospil because it is not yours. You have been taught your whole life that those who do not believe will go to Hell for all eternity and now it is just indoctrinated into your every fibre. I had a hard time accepting this too but only God can remove the scales from your eyes to see past the theological deception.

Its your call, follow man or God. If you seriously want to follow God than you need to pray about this. Ask Him to give you understanding.

God bless, Dave

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