The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Kenny · May 30, 2017

metis said:
I love it with pasta with a good parmesan.

ROFL...

Metis, you don't know how I hope we can have a cup of coffee together before we leave this earth !!!!

Ingledsva · May 30, 2017

Rick B said:
This post is intended to address a subject which has been argued a number of times. I have read some and briefly engaged some of those who reject the deity of Christ because they say that the Bible does not state the words “Jesus is God”. I believe this argument is fallacious, violating the word-concept fallacy. Also it demonstrates a presupposed bias when so many Scriptures identify Christ as divine, attributing to Him many of the divine names given to God. I do not intend to deal with the many New Testament texts ascribing Old Testament references of Jehovah to Jesus Christ. Nor the many references equating Him as Lord in the N.T. with Kurios (Lord) in the Septuagint. I will only use the Apostle John in this post in whose writings reveal the Deity of Christ.

Revelation 19:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

This section in Revelation is dealing with the coming of Christ. The Apostle John assigns a descriptive name to Jesus “The Word of God” (Gr. ho logos ho theos). This identifying Christ as “Logos”, the “Word”, is also used by John in the Prologue to his Gospel: John 1:1-18

John 1:1-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Note verse 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. The verb “was” (Gr: en, imperfect of eimi). The continuous action in the past of the imperfect tense of the verb indicates to us that whenever the “beginning” was, the Word was already in existence. “and the Word was with God…the Logos has been in communion and communication with God for eternity as well. The verb is the same as the first clause, and the preposition pros (“with”) pictures for us face-to-face communication. The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. We have the same situation in 1.1c.The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. Notice that the term Logos has the article ho while the term theos does not. This tells us that the subject of the clause is the Logos. Hence, we could not translate the phrase “and God was the Word” for that would make the wrong term the subject of the clause. Hence, the term “God” is the predicate nominative, the nature of the Logos is the nature of God, just as the nature of God in 1 John 4:8 was that of love. Now, John does emphasize the term “God” by placing it first in the clause – this is not just a “divine nature” as in something like the angels have – rather, it is truly the nature of Deity that is in view here (hence my translation as “Deity”). Dr. Kenneth Wuest, long time professor of Greek at Moody Bible Institute rendered the phrase, “And the Word was as to His essence absolute Deity.”

What he wishes to emphasize here is the personal existence of the Logos in some sense of distinction from “God” (i.e., the Father). The Logos is not the Father nor vice-versa – there are two persons under discussion here.

John 1:1 tells us some extremely important things. First, we see that the Logos is eternal, uncreated. Secondly, we see that there are two Divine Persons in view in John’s mind – the Father and the Logos. Thirdly, there is eternal communication and relationship between the Father and the Logos. Finally, we see that the Logos shares the nature of God.

John goes on to gives to Jesus another descriptive name: “The Light”, the “True Light”, the “Light of the world”.

Verse 14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The Word did not eternally exist in the form of flesh; rather, at a particular point in time He became flesh. This is the incarnation.

Verse 18: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB

He first asserts that no one has “seen God at any time.” Now, the Old Testament tells us that men have indeed seen God in the past – Isaiah saw God on His throne in Isaiah 6; Abraham walked with Yahweh in Genesis 18. So what does John mean? He defines for us that the one he is speaking of here is the Father – that is, no one has seen the Father at any time. OK, then who was it that was seen by Isaiah or by Abraham?

John tells us – the unique God. Here the phrase is monogenes theos. There is a textual variant here. Many manuscripts have monogenes huios (unique Son) – and the KJV follows this tradition. But the strongest reading is “unique God.” How are we to understand this?

The term “monogenes” is used only of Jesus in the Gospel of John. Jesus is here described as the “unique God” – John is not asserting a separate deity from the Father. Rather, this ‘unique God” is the one who is eternally in fellowship with the Father. Even when discussing the “separateness” of the Father and the Son as persons, John is quick to emphasize the unity of the divine Persons in their eternal fellowship together. Here John teaches, again, the eternal and central fact of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The unique God makes the Father known – He “explains’ Him. What we know of the Father we know because of the revelation of the Son. We know what the Father is like because we know what Jesus Is like. Here the Son’s function as the revelator of the Father is clearly set forth, and this is directly in line with the usage of the term Logos in the Prologue. Other New Testament writers use the same theme – for Paul Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” and for the writer of Hebrews Jesus is ‘the express image of His (the Father’s) person…” Both writers (or maybe just one writer if Paul indeed wrote Hebrews) are emphasizing the role of Jesus as the revealer of the Father. In the same way, this answers the above question regarding who it was, in John’s opinion, that was seen of Abraham and Isaiah. We have already had occasion to note that John will directly assert that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in the person of Yahweh (12:39ff), and could it be that this is the explanation for Jesus’ statement in John 8:56? Did Abraham “see the day of Jesus” when he walked with Him by the oaks of Mamre (Gen. 18:1)?

The conclusion is obvious throughout these few verses:

If Jesus is The Word. Rev.19:13

And if that same Word is God. Jn.1:1-18

Then Jesus is God.

Special thanks to James R White

Nothing that you wrote there actually says Jesus is God. Jesus was a Jew, - teaching Tanakh, - and would never have split YHVH into a pagan threesome.

And why the WRONG translation of John1:18?

You have this -

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The standard is -

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

There is no second God in that verse. There is a word for son/child of.

Also the word translated only begotten - means one/or first of a kind. The awaited Messiah would be such, without being a God.

*

*

metis · May 30, 2017

KenS said:
Metis, you don't know how I hope we can have a cup of coffee together before we leave this earth !!!!

That would be great, however my wife would kill me as she's deathly afraid of internet contacts as she had two cousins who left their wives to meet and eventually marry internet friends that became more than just friends.

Therefore, I'm afraid you'd maybe be far too good looking for me to resist. :glomp:

Ingledsva · May 30, 2017

lostwanderingsoul said:
"God" is made up of "the Father" and "the Son". The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. Both make up God. It is just like if there is a man whose last name is Jones and he has a son whose last mane is also Jones. They are two separate people but they are both Jones. God is like a last name. Father and Son are both God but are separate persons.

Sorry - but I'm tired of seeing explanations like this, which do not work.

It would actually be like saying a specific Jones, Jim (married to Sue,) is also Frank and Peter, all at the same time , and doing things at the same time. = Frank Jones is swimming in the river, while Peter Jones does a belly-flop on him, and at the same time - Jim Jones yells out Whoopee from a tree limb above. And by the way Frank prays to himself Jim. And this Jim Jones has a special chair in a special place, but even supposedly being actually ONE, - somehow needs a second special chair in his special place, to accommodate himself Frank, apparently now an autonomous second being - in need of a special chair. I guess Peter doesn't get a special chair.

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Rick B · May 30, 2017

Ingledsva said:
Nothing that you wrote there actually says Jesus is God. Jesus was a Jew, - teaching Tanakh, - and would never have split YHVH into a pagan threesome.

And why the WRONG translation of John1:18?

You have this -

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The standard is -

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

There is no second God in that verse. There is a word for son/child of.

Also the word translated only begotten - means one/or first of a kind. The awaited Messiah would be such, without being a God.

*

*

You are mistaken in asserting that it is a wrong translation. Monogenes Theos (only begotten God; or the only Son, who is God) is in the earliest manuscripts. Therefore I believe it is the prefered rendering. While monogenes huios is in the Majority text, textual criticism has rightly explained the variant as a later scribal error due to the near identical Greek words.

Your assertion that the coming Messiah would not be God flies in the face of the Prophet Isaiah as recorded by the Apostle Matthew 1:23:

"Behold, the Virgin will be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, God with us."

Oeste · May 30, 2017

viole said:
I really do not need any theory, philosophy, explanations, Bible stuff, Philippians, Corinthians, whatever ians, spiritual noise, justifications or anything of the sort. That can come later, if requested, which is not, at the moment.

Just a simple yes/no/maybe. The same bit I would give you if you asked me a direct question about what I know.

Yes, no or... maybe.

Still waiting....

Ciao

- viole

So you ask a question then presuppose the answer with a "Yes, No, or Maybe"?

Is that logical given the topic?

Suppose I asked you if 3 is better than 4, or if gray has more black than white, then demanded a Yes, No, or Maybe as a response?

Would you gleefully herd your answer into my predetermined range of responses? And if not, why do you insist on it from me?

viole said:
P.S. If I do not get a clear cut one liner answer to that question, i will make the safe assumption that you guys do not know either.

Conversely we could also make the relatively safe assumption you didn't really understand your question or our answer. A good try Viole, but where does that leaves us? It's a direct question to which you may freely respond, provided it's with a Yes, No, or Maybe.

Ingledsva · May 30, 2017

Rick B said:
You are mistaken in asserting that it is a wrong translation. Monogenes Theos (only begotten God; or the only Son, who is God) is in the earliest manuscripts. Therefore I believe it is the prefered rendering. While monogenes huios is in the Majority text, textual criticism has rightly explained the variant as a later scribal error due to the near identical Greek words.

Your assertion that the coming Messiah would not be God flies in the face of the Prophet Isaiah as recorded by the Apostle Matthew 1:23:

"Behold, the Virgin will be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, God with us."

Pure baloney. Look the words up. Here it is with the Strong's numbers for you.

Note that there is no second θεον, and υιος/son/child follows μονογενης/monogenēs.

Joh 1:18 θεονG2316 ουδειςG3762 εωρακενG3708 πωποτεG4455 οG3588 μονογενηςG3439 υιοςG5207 οG3588 ωνG1510 ειςG1519 τονG3588 κολπονG2859 τουG3588 πατροςG3962 εκεινοςG1565 εξηγησατοG1834

I hope the Greek shows up correctly, LOL.

Also, No "virgin" in Matthew 1:23. Jesus was obviously named Iesous, - not Immanuel. Isaiah tells us that YHVH said the MOTHER would name him Immanuel. So - Jesus/Iesous has the wrong name.

This NT misinformation is because they were writing after-the-fact - using Tanakh - trying to make Iesous/Jesus fit the Tanakh verses, while no longer understanding what they were reading.

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus actually called God.

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Ingledsva · May 30, 2017

Rick B said:
Thank you for your response. Although it is somewhat rambling and consists of disjointed suppositions, you did, at least, attempt to address a couple of statements in my opening post. But I must correct one of your deductions.

You state: "In it the Logos (translated the word) was life, and that life was the light of men..."Then deduce: "So John here says Jesus is in the Logos, but not that he is the Logos", deriving your assertion from a mistranslation.

I don't know from what version you derived that quote. You offer no substantiation. The text, again, states: "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." John 1:4

To base your whole unsupported, misrepresenting argument upon an unverified, and by all accounts, false translation of the proposed Biblical texts is self-refuting.

What?

Latest version of Kettle calling the Teapot black?

We have shown many time here that there are actually no verses calling Jesus God, when taken in context, and culture.

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Rick B · May 30, 2017

Ingledsva said:
What? Latest version of Kettle calling the Teapot black?

We have shown many time here that there are actually no verses calling Jesus God, when taken in context, and culture.

*

I have already noted that there is no phrase in the Bible with the three word sentence "Jesus is God". However I have demonstrated that the Bible declares Jesus is God. See post #1, #116, #93.

In short:
If Jesus is the Word Rev.19:13
And if that same Word is God John 1:1-18
Then Jesus is God John 20:26-29

If God alone is to be worshipped Matthew 4:8-10
And if Jesus receives and accepts worship without any Biblical admonishment but with full approval John 9:35-38; Rev. 22:1-3
Then the Bible declares that Jesus is God

And as for culture:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." John 8:56-59

"I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp." John 10:30-39

The Jews, in the culture of their time, fully understood Jesus' claim to deity as demonstrated by their words and actions and they also rejected Him as well.

MJFlores · May 30, 2017

Oeste said:
You appear to imply that Daniels' vision is about himself and not Jesus. If so, that is quite an aberrant interpretation.

You ask "Who gave the glory".
Great!

Now I'll ask "Who gave His glory to another"?
Please review the following scripture prior to your answer:

"I am the Lord; that is My name. And My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images" (Isaiah 42:8}

So that's how non-Trinitarians do it...they look for the "exception to the rule"!

I'm sure this rule, that 'there is always an exception to every rule', is based on scripture.

Can you quote it for us please? For starters could you kindly quote the exception to each of the 10 commandments?

What can I do about Daniel?
What is written is written.
Maybe ask the Jews if they could help.
Who is this being referred to?

Daniel 7:13-14 New International Version (NIV)

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The prophet Daniel had a vision.
He was given...glory.
So he received glory.
Who was given the glory?
Who gave the glory?

It wasn't Daniel, who saw the vision "....there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven."

Bio of Daniel:

One of Daniel's biblical accounts was he refused to worship a huge statue which then he was thrown in the furnace with his friends and God sent an angel to protect them from the fire.

Oeste · May 30, 2017

Rick B said:
You are mistaken in asserting that it is a wrong translation. Monogenes Theos (only begotten God; or the only Son, who is God) is in the earliest manuscripts. Therefore I believe it is the prefered rendering. While monogenes huios is in the Majority text, textual criticism has rightly explained the variant as a later scribal error due to the near identical Greek words.

Ingledsva said:
Pure baloney. Look the words up. Here it is with the Strong's numbers for you.

Note that there is no second θεον, and υιος/son/child follows μονογενης/monogenēs.

Joh 1:18 θεονG2316 ουδειςG3762 εωρακενG3708 πωποτεG4455 οG3588 μονογενηςG3439 υιοςG5207 οG3588 ωνG1510 ειςG1519 τονG3588 κολπονG2859 τουG3588 πατροςG3962 εκεινοςG1565 εξηγησατοG1834

I hope the Greek shows up correctly, LOL.

Rick B. is correct as Brian J. Wright (who co-authored Revisiting the Corruption of the New Testament: Manuscript, Patristic, and Apochryphal Evidence with Daniel Wallace) points out. It is almost certain that Monogenes Theos is preferred over Monogenes Uios. There are roughly 13 textual variants at 1:18, but the earliest and best evidence is for θεός.

Ingledsva said:
Also, No "virgin" in Matthew 1:23. Jesus was obviously named Iesous, - not Immanuel. Isaiah tells us that YHVH said the MOTHER would name him Immanuel. So - Jesus/Iesous has the wrong name.

This NT misinformation is because they were writing after-the-fact - using Tanakh - trying to make Iesous/Jesus fit the Tanakh verses, while no longer understanding what they were reading.

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus actually called God.

This is something that has always perplexed me about non-Trinitarians Ingeldvsa. Your statement that Jesus is not named Immanuel would be immediately challenged by any Trinitarian, but would be allowed to sit and fester by my non-Trinitarian Christian friends. In other words they would remain quiet even though you attack Jesus...their declared Savior...as fulfillment of Tanakh prophesy.

It's as if these "last day", post Millerite religions have been set up solely to attack the Trinity rather than to defend or reach concordance with New Testament scripture.

As such, when it comes to giving a defense for what they believe:

"...but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15)

they seem to fall down a bit on the job.

But to answer your question:

Jesus did not have to be named Immanuel. "God with us" is a reference to who Jesus is, not to what Jesus is named. It was also prophesied that Jesus would be cal "Wonderful Counselor" and "Mighty God", and if Mary had named him Immanuel I suspect there would be those wondering why she hadn't named him "Wonderful Counselor" instead.

lostwanderingsoul · May 30, 2017

An example a few posts back mentions a Jones family. This is actually a great example but it was not used correctly. If John Jones is married to Sue Jones and they have a son named Joe Jones, you can say there is one Jones family. John is Jones and Sue is Jones and Joe is Jones. There is only one Jones family but three people in it. There is also only one God (family) but two people in it. The Father is God and the Son is God. Two separate persons but making up one God. Several separate Family members but making up one Jones.

Rick B · May 30, 2017

lostwanderingsoul said:
An example a few posts back mentions a Jones family. This is actually a great example but it was not used correctly. If John Jones is married to Sue Jones and they have a son named Joe Jones, you can say there is one Jones family. John is Jones and Sue is Jones and Joe is Jones. There is only one Jones family but three people in it. There is also only one God (family) but two people in it. The Father is God and the Son is God. Two separate persons but making up one God. Several separate Family members but making up one Jones.

It's funny that you cite 3 members in the Jones family and yet when correlating to God you reduce it to 2.

Within the one being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

lostwanderingsoul · May 30, 2017

Actually many people only believe in two persons, Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is God's power and ability and not a separate person. Anyway whether it is two or three, there is still only one God who is made up of more than one member just like the one Jones is made up of more than one member.

Rick B · May 30, 2017

lostwanderingsoul said:
Actually many people only believe in two persons, Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is God's power and ability and not a separate person. Anyway whether it is two or three, there is still only one God who is made up of more than one member just like the one Jones is made up of more than one member.

Just a passing note. Between verse 7 and verse 15 in John 16 NASB when promising to send the Helper (the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth) to the disciples, Jesus refers 13 times to Him with PERSONAL pronouns.

MJFlores · May 31, 2017

Oeste said:
1. “I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols” Isaiah 42:8

2. “The glory belongs to God, forever and ever. Amen.” Galatians 1:5

3. “…in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen” 1 Peter 4:11

4. “This is what the LORD says: ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.’” Isaiah 66:1

5. “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ But he said to them, “How can they say that the Christ is David's son? For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, David thus calls him Lord, so how is he his son?” Luke 20:41-44

6. “And behold, Jesus met them and said, ‘Greetings!’ And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.” Matthew 28:9

1. “I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols” Isaiah 42:8

2. “The glory belongs to God, forever and ever. Amen.” Galatians 1:5

3. “…in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen” 1 Peter 4:11

Three verses about glory.

What does YIELD mean?
synonyms:surrender, capitulate, submit, relent, admit defeat, back down, climb down, give in

But God gave glory to the Son.and not to another - remember Daniel 7:13-14

John 11:4
When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.”

Jesus said he was God's Son, not God but he is for God's glory.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Jesus is the Son but not God, because he is the radiance of God's glory

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

We glory - told you we praise and honor. That is glory. But then again Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house - he is the Son not God.

Hebrews 5:5
In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

If Christ did not take on himself the glory, who did? It was God who gave him the glory of becoming a high priest.

2 Peter 1:17
He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Told you God gave glory to his Son - as Daniel 7:13-14

4. “This is what the LORD says: ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.’” Isaiah 66:1

5. “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ But he said to them, “How can they say that the Christ is David's son? For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, David thus calls him Lord, so how is he his son?” Luke 20:41-44

The footstool - I don't know why you used the footstool - to prove Jesus is God?

Anyway...

Hebrews 10:12-14 New International Version (NIV)

But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Jesus sat down at the right hand of God
This proves the Lord Jesus is different from God
Jesus is not God because he sat down at the right hand of God

Thank you for the footstool, it was lovely.

6. “And behold, Jesus met them and said, ‘Greetings!’ And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.”

When people worship Jesus does it mean he is God?

View attachment 17810

Let us go back to the prophet Daniel:

Daniel 7:13-14 New International Version (NIV)

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The prophet Daniel who lived about 200 years before the birth of Christ prophesied that the Son of Man will be worshiped. The people in Jesus' time worshiped him, those who were healed worshiped him, the Magi worshiped him and the apostles worshiped him. Not as God but as the Son of Man.

Philippians 2:9-11 New International Version (NIV)

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

That is why I worship the Lord Jesus Christ, not as God but to the glory of God the Father.

Those 6 verses allegedly proving Jesus is God do not have substance and they fell like trees.

Ingledsva · May 31, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The Trinity is true. ...

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24)....

Where to start!

1. The Hebrew originally had Gods, and at one point a God and Goddess = Elohiym. We find a switch to one particular Elohiym, - YHVH Elohiym, - at Gen 2:4.
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2. Gen 1:26 - still in multiple Gods. Gen 3:22 - The verse preceding it Tell us we are dealing with a particular Elohiym = YHVH Elohiym. We also have Cherubim mentioned, and in Gen 2 we were told the Heavens with all the "hosts" was finished. So obviously the "US" is YHVH, Hosts, Cherubim, etc. Gen 11:7 - Again, this text specifically says YHVH Elohiym, - so YHVH and his host, angels, etc. Isaiah 6:8 - Again - specifically says YHVH Elohiym and he has Seraphs with him = US.
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3. Matt 28:19 Since when does baptizing in the name of God and his Messiah mean Jesus is God?
Mat 28:19 Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son,...
Throughout Tanakh The Hebrew people are called the Sons of God.

In 2Co 13:14 Jesus is again identified separate from God. He is not God.

2Co 13:14 The grace/peace of our master/lord Iesous Christos, AND the love of GOD, and the benefaction/fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

You seem to have taken John 14:16 out of context - leaving out what 10, 16, and other verses tell us. Jesus is NOT God.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray to the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
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4. Dan 7:9-14 How in the world are you getting Holy spirit, and Jesus is YHVH, out of this?

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

IN CONTEXT!!!!!

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Dan 7:18 But the Holy Ones of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the Holy Ones of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the Holy Ones of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (The Most High YHVH)

" The Rabbinic interpretation is:

Messianic
"Ancient of Days" is a name of God
"son of man" is a mistranslation

.The term "ben adam" or "bar enosh" is used in OT Hebrew to mean a mortal, fallible human being. Used commonly by God when addressing mortals to remind them of their place in the general scheme of things. (And used commonly in modern Hebrew to indicate that someone is a regular chap, he's a "ben adam". 'Don't be so hard-nosed, be a "ben adam"!')

The everlasting dominion given to the "ben adam" (by inference the Seleuicids were not that) is the House of David that will be re-established, and this time permanently, as promised by previous prophets. The messiah is a human king, who gets married and hopefully has righteous kids, one of whom continues the line after his death." Jewish interpretation of Daniel 7:13-14

And that is what Dan 7:27 tells us. A Human Messiah from the line of David. No God.

Read this Jewish translation.

Daniel - Chapter 7

John 14:16 already discussed in 2.
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5. Luke 3:21-22 Three all at one time make you think they are one. Common sense says three at the same time means they are separate. No Trinity. Jesus does NOT tell us there is a trinity. You'd think he woyld tell us something that important about himself?

Luk 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

6. Luke 22:42 See 5!

Part two to follow -

Ingledsva · May 31, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The Trinity is true.

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).
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PART TWO -

7. Psalm 2? WOW! Apparently you don't know this is about King David. It says so in many places.

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHVH, and against his anointed, saying,

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: YHVH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 3:1 A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son. YHVH, how are they increased that trouble me! many are they that rise up against me.

Go to a Jewish site and read their explanation of Psalm 2.
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Psalm 45:7 You think these verses are about Jesus? Fancy clothes, women, virgins, a queen, kids, lives in a palace? NOPE!

Psa 45:1 To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, for the sons of Korah, Maschil, A Song of loves. My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

6 Thine arrows are sharp--the peoples fall under thee--[they sink] into the heart of the king's enemies.

7 Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

8 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; {N}
therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

9 Myrrh, and aloes, and cassia are all thy garments; out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made thee glad.

10 Kings' daughters are among thy favourites; at thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

14 All glorious is the king's daughter within the palace; her raiment is of chequer work inwrought with gold.

15 She shall be led unto the king on richly woven stuff; the virgins her companions in her train being brought unto thee.

16 They shall be led with gladness and rejoicing; they shall enter into the king's palace.

17 Instead of thy fathers, shall be thy sons, whom thou shalt make princes in all the land.

18 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations; therefore shall the peoples praise thee for ever and ever.

Psalms 45 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Psalm 110:1 You folks always get this one wrong - because you don't understand that this is King David, - and YOUR first translated "Lord" is actually YHVH.

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. YHVH said unto my Lord (King David), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psa 110:2 YHVH shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

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Mat 11:27 How are these supposed to prove Jesus is God talking with God? Information would obviously be given to the awaited Messiah - whom isn't a god.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 17:24 -
Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (in the giving of the Messiah to the Jews) (Not a god)

NOTHING you have posted shows Jesus to be a trinity God.

Ingledsva · May 31, 2017

Rick B said:
I have already noted that there is no phrase in the Bible with the three word sentence "Jesus is God". However I have demonstrated that the Bible declares Jesus is God. See post #1, #116, #93.

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No you haven't.

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Ingledsva · May 31, 2017

Oeste said:
Rick B. is correct as Brian J. Wright (who co-authored Revisiting the Corruption of the New Testament: Manuscript, Patristic, and Apochryphal Evidence with Daniel Wallace) points out. It is almost certain that Monogenes Theos is preferred over Monogenes Uios. There are roughly 13 textual variants at 1:18, but the earliest and best evidence is for θεός.

Show the text so we can decide for ourselves.

This is your standard KJV

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

However in the Greek - God is the first word, and Monogenes and Uios are together half way down the sentence.

I looked at several translations including the Textus Receptus, Byzantine, a 1611 KJV, and a 1568 Bishop's. They all translate it Monogenes Uios. Obviously so do the majority of modern Biblical scholars as that is the translation we find in our bibles.

Oeste said:
This is something that has always perplexed me about non-Trinitarians Ingeldvsa. Your statement that Jesus is not named Immanuel would be immediately challenged by any Trinitarian, but would be allowed to sit and fester by my non-Trinitarian Christian friends. In other words they would remain quiet even though you attack Jesus...their declared Savior...as fulfillment of Tanakh prophesy.

It's as if these "last day", post Millerite religions have been set up solely to attack the Trinity rather than to defend or reach concordance with New Testament scripture.

As such, when it comes to giving a defense for what they believe:

"...but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15)

they seem to fall down a bit on the job.

And how exactly is challenging something LATER Christians came up with, - and Jesus NEVER said, an "attack" on Jesus? He was a Jew teaching ONE GOD Tanakh. Trinitarians are the ones that attack him and change his message.

Oeste said:
But to answer your question:

Jesus did not have to be named Immanuel. "God with us" is a reference to who Jesus is, not to what Jesus is named. It was also prophesied that Jesus would be cal "Wonderful Counselor" and "Mighty God", and if Mary had named him Immanuel I suspect there would be those wondering why she hadn't named him "Wonderful Counselor" instead.

Not correct.

Isn't it interesting that everything is a PROPHECY from God and can't be changed, - until you don't like what it says HE SAID.

And I might as well add at this point that the verse is not about a future Jesus.

They were in a war and God gave them a sign, - a MAIDEN would conceive and NAME her child Immanuel, God is with us = in the war going on right then. The sign was for Ahaz and Isaiah, which means it cannot be a far future person. Named Kings would be gone BEFORE the child Knew the difference between Good and Evil. So, again, no future Jesus.

The God prophecy says SHE will name her son Immanuel, Not some future person (a pope I think) saying it is a title, trying to claim Jesus is this child. Mary gave her son the wrong name.

Isa 7:14 Therefore will YHVH himself give you a sign: behold, this (‛almah) young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and she shall call his name ‘Immanu-el, God with us.

Quotes below from http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-714-a-virgin-birth/

"The Southern Kingdom of Judea had its capital in Jerusalem and was ruled by King Ahaz. The Northern Kingdom of Israel had its capital in Samaria and was ruled by King Pekah. To the north of both these kingdoms was a third, non-Jewish ruler, King Resin of Aram (Syria) whose capital was Damascus.

God dispatched the prophet Isaiah and one of his sons to warn King Ahaz that the northern kingdom had formed an alliance with this King Rezin They had joined forces to “wage war against Jerusalem.”

"Isaiah tells King Ahaz (verse 4) that he should not be afraid because God will be with him and the invasion with fail. Additionally, within 65 years the northern kingdom will cease to exist and its 10 tribes would be led into exile by Assyria. This is where the idea of ten lost tribes originates.

The sign mentioned in verse 14 to Ahaz is that the two kings who threatened King Ahaz would be destroyed quickly. This sign is described in the next verse:

“before the child knows enough to refuse evil and choose good the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken” Isaiah 7:15

It is fulfilled in the next chapter with the birth of a child to the prophet Isaiah:

“he (Isaiah) approached the prophetess and she conceived (tahar) and bore (taled) a son and God said to me: Name the child “Maher-shalal-hash-baz” which means (the spoil speeds the prey hastens). For before the child shall know how to cry my father my mother the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Sammaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.” Isaiah 8:4"

"Eventually the Northern Kingdom of Israel and Aram-Syria are vanquished by the armies of Sennacherib King of Assyria (Babylon) who exiled the northern kingdom:

“The king of Assyria invaded the entire country… the king of Assyria captured Samaria and exiled Israel” 2 Kings 17:5-6

“Thus God saved Hezikiah (son of Ahaz) and the inhabitants of Jerusalem from the hand of Sennacherib King of Assyria.” 2 Chronicles 32:22" (Note here that we have the SON of AHAZ and the war with ASSYRIA together.)

We will let them speak for themselves.

Video –

- refutes many so called Jesus verses. Start around minute 15.

Video - http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge...-messiah/why-jesus-is-not-the-jewish-messiah/

http://jewsforjudaism.org/?s=Messiah

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

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