The "Golden Plates" and Relative Credibility

Katzpur said:

I also find it interesting that when you or Jay bring this to people's attention, it is accepted as a rational observation.

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One is reminded of Matthew 7:3-5, Luke 6:41-42, Thomas 26. Anti-Mormon Christians seem to me particularly sensitive to motes.

Katzpur said:

You hit the nail on the head. I'd be the first to admit that the events we believe Joseph Smith to have experienced are extraordinary, to say that least. But it is inevitably the same people who have no trouble whatsoever believing that Moses parted the Red Sea, that Mary miraculously conceived Jesus without losing her virginity and that Jesus Christ himself raised Lazarus from the dead, as who laugh their heads off over the notion that Joseph Smith was visited by an angel bearing an ancient record inscribed on golden plates. The difference is that the latter event supposedly happened in the nineteenth century. Period.

I also find it interesting that when you or Jay bring this to people's attention, it is accepted as a rational observation. If any Latter-day Saint were to have made the same point exactly, we'd have been fending off one stupid comment after another until the debate was closed by the mods. As it turns out, when some people talk, other people listen. And I guess that, given the alternative, that's a good thing after all.

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You may be right, especially so with the bolded section above. The thing is, tho, that I don't buy into either the LDS stories or the older Christian stories, and feel that I have pretty darned strong reasons for not buying into either set of stories (both for the same reasons, incidentally) which is, I firmly beleive, intellectually honest and consistent.

Those who point out the incredulity of LDS claims while clinging to (insert Biblical story of your choice here) are not, I beleive being intellectually honest, as there is simply no difference between the equally incredible claims of each group.

All that being said, I don't know that anyone takes me or Jay as authoritative on this or any other topic, but as non theists, I guess someone could look at us as having less of a dog in the fight, so to speak, as opposed to a theist talking up their own ideas while talking down the ideas of another theistic group.

B.

SoyLeche said:

Matthew 27:52-53

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Coincidentally, a similar event is recorded as happening in the Americas in the BoM (although it looks like they almost forgot to write it down)

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/23

8 And when Nephi had brought forth the records, and laid them before him, he cast his eyes upon them and said:

9 Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel, the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people, that at the day that the Father should glorify his name in me that there were many saints who should arise from the dead, and should appear unto many, and should minister unto them. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

10 And his disciples answered him and said: Yea, Lord, Samuel did prophesy according to thy words, and they were all fulfilled.

11 And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have not written this thing, that many saints did arise and appear unto many and did minister unto them?

12 And it came to pass that Nephi remembered that this thing had not been written.

13 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written; therefore it was written according as he commanded.

Victor said:

This may be comforting for some LDS to know that now they may be lumped in with all the other Christians that believe in other stories that sound just as bizarre. But for those of us who do play outside the emperical plane, it is still unfounded.

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I'm sorry, Victor, but I do not understand your comment. Would you clarify it for me?

Jayhawker Soule said:

I'm sorry, Victor, but I do not understand your comment. Would you clarify it for me?

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Don't know how much clearer I can make that...

Victor said:

This may be comforting for some LDS to know that now they may be lumped in with all the other Christians that believe in other stories that sound just as bizarre.

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And this is precisely why I am less offended when an atheist calls my beliefs nonsense than when another Christian does.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

You may be right, especially so with the bolded section above. The thing is, tho, that I don't buy into either the LDS stories or the older Christian stories, and feel that I have pretty darned strong reasons for not buying into either set of stories (both for the same reasons, incidentally) which is, I firmly beleive, intellectually honest and consistent.

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I realize you don't buy into any of it, and I can respect that, but at least you are consistent in your reasoning, which is not the case with non-LDS Christians.

Victor said:

Don't know how much clearer I can make that...

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Maybe you could be more clear of the antecedents of your pronouns

Katzpur said:

And this is precisely why I am less offended when an atheist calls my beliefs nonsense than when another Christian does.

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You won't catch me saying such things. Shame on me if you do. Nonetheless we should be putting our minds together to give answers to those who do not believe. Once they enter the subjective arena, we can settle things there. One step at a time.

Victor said:

Don't know how much clearer I can make that...

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I'll take that as a "no". Thanks anyway.

Katzpur said:

I realize you don't buy into any of it, and I can respect that, but at least you are consistent in your reasoning, which is not the case with non-LDS Christians.

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How is my reasoning as a non-LDS Christian any less consistent? Please note that I never called your beliefs nonsense, never tried to convince anyone else that they were and never called LDS non-Christian. All I stated was that my reading of LDS sources (and, yes, I have read the BoM) does not convince me and gave some reasons why I find it incompatible with the history of the Church and, hence, find the idea that Joseph Smith was a prophet inconceivable. I could be wrong and accept that. I also accept, and stated, that this is a matter of personal faith. As such, I am aware that I am just as biased as somebody pro-LDS would be. I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and hence do not believe the foundational stories of the LDS. If you do then fine, and I will not seek to convince you otherwise. Please tell me how this reasoning is inconsistent.

James

JamesThePersian said:

I would agree with Michel. There are certain things about Joseph Smith and the BoM that I find difficult in the extreme to reconcile with his being a prophet. If he was not a prophet then the whole thing breaks down. Ultimately this is a matter of faith. I have no such probblems of faith when it comes to the early Church, though I should think that you could come up with some, Jay, even if I would likely dismiss them. This, too, is down to faith. My biggest problem with Joseph Smith, however, is his claim of an Apostasy which just does not sit well at all with what I know of Church history, which therefore makes the Golden Plates story (along with Joseph Smith's earlier vision) completely implausible to me. Any revelation from God (and the LDS are just as reliant on early Christian claims being true as I am) should not be either ignorant of great swathes of Church history nor contradictory of said Church history. I see both problems in Joseph Smith's revelations and therefore cannot help but conclude that he was no prophet.

James

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i find it interesting that you mention church history the more i learn about history (in general) the more I learn the more i wonder if religion is just a form to control the people and NOT for there salvation, one thing that i do find interesting with the lds church history is that all of the religious scholar said, at the time about Joseph Smith founding and translated the BofM, is they said, "no one ever kept records on gold plate or any other plates" this statement was ultimately untrue later when people found gold plates in Mesoamerica and many other parts of the world, we even found a vast library of clay plate in Egypt (i beleve) that seem to be part of the old testament... so Joseph Smith was telling the truth on this part, but the question still remains are you will not to lesson to a "supposed prophet" and take the charge to really find out with a sincere heart with real intent to investigate without any prgadice if there are real prophets on the earth to day; we all know what happed to the people of the days of Noah and i believe that most of the happenings of the world like Aids, famine, natural disasters are because of our inequality towards the things that are righteous, we do not follow the commandment not to have sex (aldutry), we lessen the consequences so many people can have sex and not have the consequence of children, and we heighten the consequence by refusing to prepare for natural disasters and take the steps necessary to take the time and energy like Joseph sold to Egypt to prepare in any way we can... these things show us that most of the religions of the world don't follow the basic believe structure that we have to do for ourselves before we can ask God, we expect him to do everything Grace cannot save people that cannot help themselves, or we would not have to do the work of repentance or even the work of baptism or even the work or prayer... we need prophets not popes not bishops running a church, not evangelist that seek to make money instead of helping those in need, not people to wo this and that for there own gain, everything in life is Faith, hope and charity that is rightues and Godly. with out these three we cannot humble ourselves as a Child and enter into the gates of heaven, these three things are to form a perfect knowledge of divinity without them we are lost and we have to remember, because we forget more than we remember...