Christians Only: Explaining the Trinity

David1967 said:

It seems to me anyway that the main point of contention between Christianity, Islam and Judaism ( and to be fair, some types of Christianity) is the Concept of the Trinity. I would like to see an explanation for the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God.

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David1967,
I believe that the trinity is a Blasphemous cacao you. In the first place the term Almighty is totally Mutually Exclusive,meaning that it is impossible for more than ONE to be Allpowerful, Omnipotent.
Here is something that all must understand; God hates deception, Psalms 5:6, and no deception was found in Jesus' mouth, 1Peter 2:21,22. Taking that to heart, when Jesus came up from being baptized, a voice came from heaven, saying this is my son,in whom I am well pleased. If God the Father was in heaven, and Jesus was on earth, who could they be the same person???
In two places in the Bible, God was on His throne, and Jesus came in before Him. How could that happen if they are the same person??? Daniel 7:13,14, Revelation 5:6-11.
If two people are really one, they would know the same things, Matthew 24:36. Matthew 20:23 Jesus says that he does not control all things but some things only the Father controls. No trinity here!!! If God the Father and the son were the same person they would have the same will; consider John 5:19, 30, and 10:18.
Consider John 5:22, which says the the Father does not judge any man,but has given all the judging to the son. This would be deception, really a lie,if they were the same.
I could go on and on, but this should be enough for a reasonable person. If not genuflection is in order!!! Agape!!!

12jtartar said:

David1967,
I believe that the trinity is a Blasphemous cacao you. In the first place the term Almighty is totally Mutually Exclusive,meaning that it is impossible for more than ONE to be Allpowerful, Omnipotent.
Here is something that all must understand; God hates deception, Psalms 5:6, and no deception was found in Jesus' mouth, 1Peter 2:21,22. Taking that to heart, when Jesus came up from being baptized, a voice came from heaven, saying this is my son,in whom I am well pleased. If God the Father was in heaven, and Jesus was on earth, who could they be the same person???
In two places in the Bible, God was on His throne, and Jesus came in before Him. How could that happen if they are the same person??? Daniel 7:13,14, Revelation 5:6-11.
If two people are really one, they would know the same things, Matthew 24:36. Matthew 20:23 Jesus says that he does not control all things but some things only the Father controls. No trinity here!!! If God the Father and the son were the same person they would have the same will; consider John 5:19, 30, and 10:18.
Consider John 5:22, which says the the Father does not judge any man,but has given all the judging to the son. This would be deception, really a lie,if they were the same.
I could go on and on, but this should be enough for a reasonable person. If not genuflection is in order!!! Agape!!!

Click to expand...

You've made some excellent points, and I agree with all of them. I'm curious, though, as to how you can believe as you do and explain Jesus' words, "I and my Father are one." I know how I'd explain that, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

12jtartar said:

David1967,
I believe that the trinity is a Blasphemous cacao you. In the first place the term Almighty is totally Mutually Exclusive,meaning that it is impossible for more than ONE to be Allpowerful, Omnipotent.
Here is something that all must understand; God hates deception, Psalms 5:6, and no deception was found in Jesus' mouth, 1Peter 2:21,22. Taking that to heart, when Jesus came up from being baptized, a voice came from heaven, saying this is my son,in whom I am well pleased. If God the Father was in heaven, and Jesus was on earth, who could they be the same person???
In two places in the Bible, God was on His throne, and Jesus came in before Him. How could that happen if they are the same person??? Daniel 7:13,14, Revelation 5:6-11.
If two people are really one, they would know the same things, Matthew 24:36. Matthew 20:23 Jesus says that he does not control all things but some things only the Father controls. No trinity here!!! If God the Father and the son were the same person they would have the same will; consider John 5:19, 30, and 10:18.
Consider John 5:22, which says the the Father does not judge any man,but has given all the judging to the son. This would be deception, really a lie,if they were the same.
I could go on and on, but this should be enough for a reasonable person. If not genuflection is in order!!! Agape!!!

Click to expand...

Thank you for the input. You make some good points. Curious as to what you mean by the last two words of your first sentence, "cacao you".
Thanks

I regret writing that huge blob of text on page 1.

That's why I keep it simple:
The Game
in short The Trinity is: 1,2 and 3: your concious mind, your sub-concious mind and the 'critical faculty' (in symbolic religious terms often referred to as 'The Veil' or 'The Wall') that (should!!!....) separates them. All 'visions' and 'experiences' people have had the past centuries evolved from 'sub-concious interaction' 'pushed thru' by people experimenting with hypnosis.

David1967 said:

It seems to me anyway that the main point of contention between Christianity, Islam and Judaism ( and to be fair, some types of Christianity) is the Concept of the Trinity. I would like to see an explanation for the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God.

Click to expand...

Simple: the explanation of the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God lies in not seeing the members of the Trinity as "persons" analogous to human persons, but as a single hierarchical spirit entity. Only the son can be contrasted to a human person, because he was a human person before his resurrection.

The problems with the Trinity are all to do with its conception as per pagan deities. God is nothing like a pagan deity. There are not three human-like people in heaven all sitting around a conference table, a la the pagan conception. There is rather an indivisible spirit concept of God in heaven, who lives in unapproachable light, in whom are three names, and the Father is at the top and imbues the whole godhead with its "single" personna or hypostasis (Heb 1;3). For if the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son, then there is no divisibility perceived by mortal man, except what Christ himself revealed and as is found in the book of Revelation.

URAVIP2ME said:

In Scripture, both God and Jesus are always in the masculine, whereas God's spirit is used in the neuter as 'it' or 'itself '.

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Care should be taken in interpreting passages which use "spirit" in order to see if it simply a spirit in view (which could be man's spirit, a spiritual being (angel), or an emotion (i.e., "a spirit of fear").

What Scripture certainly teaches is that God the Spirit is not an "it," but a He.

Here is a passage in which the Trinity is clearly laid out:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Here we see...

1. The Unity of the Son and the Spirit, the Comforter;

2. The promise of Eternal Indwelling of the Spirit...and Christ (v.18);

3. A distinction between the Father (v.16) and the Son, and the Spirit (the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth).


Next affirmation of the Trinity:


John 14:19-23
King James Version (KJV)

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Here we see...

1. What will take place will take place at a future date (hence is not occurring at the time of this teaching), v.20;

2. The unity (at that future date) of the believer's unity with God, which is a result of the Reconciliation that God was in Christ accomplishing (v.20);

3. Christ promises to manifest Himself to those who believes and keeps His commandments (v.21);

4. When the Spirit is sent, and Christ comes, Christ states both He and the Father will indwell the believer (make Their abode with them) v.23.


In other words, Christ is saying that when the Spirit of Truth comes, it is equable to saying that the father, Son, and Holy Ghost will come to the believer (indwell them), which is a constant theme of Christ's teachings, as well as seen as promised by God in Prophecy.

Now let's see Christ verify without controversy that the Spirit is not an "it," but that He is God:

John 14:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


The indwelling of God is, again, a common theme in the New Testament. In this passage Christ defines that this indwelling will begin when the Spirit of Truth arrives, and that this indwelling will be the Eternal Indwelling of God, whereby we can say without debate we are indwelt by God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and we simply look at what Scripture teaches elsewhere to see that Unity.

For example:

Acts 20:24-28
King James Version (KJV)

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Now one can debate whether it is the Holy Ghost which shed His blood for the Church, or God Who shed His blood for the Church, either way it makes little difference, because God is One, and though we do see God in Three Persons, they are still One.

During the Incarnation, prior to Christ's death, we do have the distinction of God manifested in flesh, but, that should be viewed as a "veiling" of the Glory of God, which is not exclusive to the Incarnation (see Genesis 18 for another example of God manifesting in flesh). We must also distinguish the difference between Jesus Christ, Who has a point in time when He comes into existence as the man, and the Son, Who is Eternal God Himself, and, as John writes, the Creator.

There are numerous places in the KJV where "it" is used, which is an unfortunate translation issue.

One more passage where we see the Spirit of God and Christ equated as being the same One is seen here:

Romans 8:9-10
King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Sorry, but people calling God "it" is a pet peeve of mine.


Continued...

URAVIP2ME said:

Also, according to Scripture, God has No Creator, No Father, No Mother - Psalms 90:2 - God had No beginning.
Whereas, according to gospel writer John, Jesus had a start as the beginning of the creation by God. - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14

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Nothing in Scripture teaches that the Son of "had a start" at any time, or that He is a created being. On the contrary, numerous times we are shown that the Son of God is God Himself, the Creator.

Here is another passage showing that (I am sure most are familiar with John 1:1-3):


Revelation 1:8-11
King James Version (KJV)

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Few will argue that it is not God in view here, so, when we come to...


Revelation 1:17-18
King James Version (KJV)

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Few would argue that it is not Christ in view, for He it is that liveth, and was dead, and is alive forevermore.

And He is the First and the Last, a familiar name for God:


Isaiah 44:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Isaiah 48:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.


Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the First and the Last all make the same statement, and only God is the First and the Last.

URAVIP2ME said:

So, Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

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True, Jesus was not before the beginning, but...

...the Son of God was.

And is.

And shall always be.

URAVIP2ME said:

Also, can we see God and live ? _______ People saw Jesus and lived. - John 1:18; John 6:46; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20

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Abraham saw God on the plains of Mamre in Genesis 18...and did not die.

Man cannot see God in His glory and live, but, often did man come into the presence of God when God intervened in the affairs of man. We see this in the Garden, and in numerous places where God appeared to men.

The key, I think, is understanding that God can veil His glory, as He did in Genesis 18, and as He did in the Incarnation. Hebrews testifies this is the case:


Hebrews 10:19-20
King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The veil of the Tabernacle was a picture of the "veil" men would eventually go through to come into the presence of God. That "veil" is the very Person of Christ. It is through Him, and specifically His death (v.20, "flesh" is often euphemistic of His Death) through which we have entrance, not in figure (parable), but in reality. The "Holiest" in view is in fact Heaven itself, God's Throne.


God bless.

I find Revelation 3:14 ( Rev 1:5 ) is saying Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
Un-created God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2, so the pre-human Jesus is Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning. One God, One Lord according to 1 Corinthians 8:6. ( No third person )
The One God is the KJV LORD ( in all Upper-Case letters ) of Psalms 110 where the Tetragrammaton appears.
The One Lord is the KJV Lord ( in some lower-case letters ) which applies only to Jesus.

Both God and Jesus are always in the masculine gender, however God's spirit is in neuter gender " IT " at KJV Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25, and also KJV at Romans 8:16 and Romans 8:26 as " itself ".
Later translations simply took the liberty to change neuter ' it ' to masculine gender.

URAVIP2ME said:

I find Revelation 3:14 ( Rev 1:5 ) is saying Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
Un-created God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2, so the pre-human Jesus is Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning. One God, One Lord according to 1 Corinthians 8:6. ( No third person )
The One God is the KJV LORD ( in all Upper-Case letters ) of Psalms 110 where the Tetragrammaton appears.
The One Lord is the KJV Lord ( in some lower-case letters ) which applies only to Jesus.

Both God and Jesus are always in the masculine gender, however God's spirit is in neuter gender " IT " at KJV Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25, and also KJV at Romans 8:16 and Romans 8:26 as " itself ".
Later translations simply took the liberty to change neuter ' it ' to masculine gender.

Click to expand...

Again, we distinguish between Spirit and spirit, and it is simply basic in Scripture that the Holy Spirit is GOd, and cannot therefore be called "IT."


God bless.

S.T.Ranger said:

Again, we distinguish between Spirit and spirit, and it is simply basic in Scripture that the Holy Spirit is God, and cannot therefore be called "IT."
God bless.

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...and God's blessings in return. As Psalms 104:30 says God sends forth His spirit, Not sends forth Himself.
I find it interesting that 'God's spirit' is also likened to 'God's finger' such as found at Luke 11:20; Matthew 12:28.
Gods' finger is also mentioned in connection to Exodus 31:18 B with the written-on-stone tablets by God's finger.
Moses had God's spirit (Not God) inside of him according to Isaiah 63:11 B.

In Scripture, I find at Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25 that God's spirit is called ' it ' ( neuter Not masculine )
Also, before Romans 8:16 and Romans 8:26 was changed by some God's spirit is called as ' itself ' ( neuter )
Changing ' it ' to ' him ' or ' himself ' does Not make God's spirit as masculine but still remains a neuter ' it '.
God gives His good spirit to instruct according to Nehemiah 9:20.

To explain the Trinity.
The Holy Spirit of God, is the all powerful driven force of God.
God speaks then the Spirit of God acts to accomplish all things that is spoken.

God is the reincarnate in Christ Jesus.

God made himself a body and then put himself inside of that body of Jesus.

There you have God in human body of flesh and blood of Jesus.

There you have God in the flesh body of Jesus.
There you have God in human form.

There you have The Son of man and Son of God. Jesus.
There you have Jesus the Almighty God.

Faithofchristian said:

The Holy Spirit of God, is the all powerful driven force of God.
God speaks then the Spirit of God acts to accomplish all things that is spoken.

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In the OT the Spirit of God is the power of creation, living beings are created, (Ps 104). What happens to Mary is new creation; the God who called forth being out of nothing makes a new beginning amid humanity, his Word becomes flesh. As one theologian puts it 'in Jesus human nature was assumed by him who from eternity belongs to the triune relationship of the divine love."

S.T.Ranger said:

Care should be taken in interpreting passages which use "spirit" in order to see if it simply a spirit in view (which could be man's spirit, a spiritual being (angel), or an emotion (i.e., "a spirit of fear").

What Scripture certainly teaches is that God the Spirit is not an "it," but a He.

Here is a passage in which the Trinity is clearly laid out:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Here we see...

1. The Unity of the Son and the Spirit, the Comforter;

2. The promise of Eternal Indwelling of the Spirit...and Christ (v.18);

3. A distinction between the Father (v.16) and the Son, and the Spirit (the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth).


Next affirmation of the Trinity:


John 14:19-23
King James Version (KJV)

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Here we see...

1. What will take place will take place at a future date (hence is not occurring at the time of this teaching), v.20;

2. The unity (at that future date) of the believer's unity with God, which is a result of the Reconciliation that God was in Christ accomplishing (v.20);

3. Christ promises to manifest Himself to those who believes and keeps His commandments (v.21);

4. When the Spirit is sent, and Christ comes, Christ states both He and the Father will indwell the believer (make Their abode with them) v.23.


In other words, Christ is saying that when the Spirit of Truth comes, it is equable to saying that the father, Son, and Holy Ghost will come to the believer (indwell them), which is a constant theme of Christ's teachings, as well as seen as promised by God in Prophecy.

Now let's see Christ verify without controversy that the Spirit is not an "it," but that He is God:

John 14:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


The indwelling of God is, again, a common theme in the New Testament. In this passage Christ defines that this indwelling will begin when the Spirit of Truth arrives, and that this indwelling will be the Eternal Indwelling of God, whereby we can say without debate we are indwelt by God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and we simply look at what Scripture teaches elsewhere to see that Unity.

For example:

Acts 20:24-28
King James Version (KJV)

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Now one can debate whether it is the Holy Ghost which shed His blood for the Church, or God Who shed His blood for the Church, either way it makes little difference, because God is One, and though we do see God in Three Persons, they are still One.

During the Incarnation, prior to Christ's death, we do have the distinction of God manifested in flesh, but, that should be viewed as a "veiling" of the Glory of God, which is not exclusive to the Incarnation (see Genesis 18 for another example of God manifesting in flesh). We must also distinguish the difference between Jesus Christ, Who has a point in time when He comes into existence as the man, and the Son, Who is Eternal God Himself, and, as John writes, the Creator.

There are numerous places in the KJV where "it" is used, which is an unfortunate translation issue.

One more passage where we see the Spirit of God and Christ equated as being the same One is seen here:

Romans 8:9-10
King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Sorry, but people calling God "it" is a pet peeve of mine.


Continued...




Nothing in Scripture teaches that the Son of "had a start" at any time, or that He is a created being. On the contrary, numerous times we are shown that the Son of God is God Himself, the Creator.

Here is another passage showing that (I am sure most are familiar with John 1:1-3):


Revelation 1:8-11
King James Version (KJV)

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Few will argue that it is not God in view here, so, when we come to...


Revelation 1:17-18
King James Version (KJV)

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Few would argue that it is not Christ in view, for He it is that liveth, and was dead, and is alive forevermore.

And He is the First and the Last, a familiar name for God:


Isaiah 44:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Isaiah 48:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.


Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the First and the Last all make the same statement, and only God is the First and the Last.




True, Jesus was not before the beginning, but...

...the Son of God was.

And is.

And shall always be.




Abraham saw God on the plains of Mamre in Genesis 18...and did not die.

Man cannot see God in His glory and live, but, often did man come into the presence of God when God intervened in the affairs of man. We see this in the Garden, and in numerous places where God appeared to men.

The key, I think, is understanding that God can veil His glory, as He did in Genesis 18, and as He did in the Incarnation. Hebrews testifies this is the case:


Hebrews 10:19-20
King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The veil of the Tabernacle was a picture of the "veil" men would eventually go through to come into the presence of God. That "veil" is the very Person of Christ. It is through Him, and specifically His death (v.20, "flesh" is often euphemistic of His Death) through which we have entrance, not in figure (parable), but in reality. The "Holiest" in view is in fact Heaven itself, God's Throne.


God bless.

Click to expand...

Excellent witness S.T. Ranger.

Unfortunately I've noticed a tendency by non-Trinitarians to simply jump (proof text) rather than resolve scriptural verses.

Tertullian is the father of the Trinity idea through writings of Justin Martyr. This concept comes through the ignorance of gnosis, which they disputed and eventually tried to destroy.

The Father has always been. It is through him the "beginning" occurred. There was a beginning, an Alpha. The beginning was of the Father, not the Father. This is the way Jesus spoke (and taught). We cannot conceive the Father, but we can conceive Christ (the Son of the Father). To say there is an equality is to misunderstand the spiritual concept of "one".

Philippians
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus didn't glorify himself, but the Father. And the Father glorified himself by glorifying Jesus. Through this glorification was the Holy Spirit able to be given to man by the Father.
John:
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is the "Father is greater than I" Jesus spoke.

The Father, the Mother, the Son. We become "sons" (and daughters) of the living God.

David1967 said:

It seems to me anyway that the main point of contention between Christianity, Islam and Judaism ( and to be fair, some types of Christianity) is the Concept of the Trinity. I would like to see an explanation for the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God.

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How about : I believe in " One Almighty Triune God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost " Like it says, those with faith don't need an explanation, those without faith, no explanation will do.

midopafo said:

How about : I believe in " One Almighty Triune God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost " Like it says, those with faith don't need an explanation, those without faith, no explanation will do.

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So which one is God?

The Father has no beginning. We cannot know the Father directly, but by the Son. The Son had a beginning for this purpose. How can man know the Son? Through the Holy Spirit, that who made Jesus son of God, makes us sons of God as well.

It's all spiritually spoken and all spiritually true. If Jesus said that man has never heard Gods voice (directly), then the voice that was heard when Jesus accepted the Holy Spirit (baptism/chrism) was the Holy Spirit saying "this is my son".

Gnosis teaches a monarchy:

And I asked to know it, and he said to me, "The Monad is a monarchy with nothing above it. It is he who exists as God and Father of everything, the invisible One who is above everything, who exists as incorruption, which is in the pure light into which no eye can look.- Secret John

Jesus never said "trinity" as Tertullian pushed for 100 years after Christ. He did say "monarchy" which is proven by Jesus saying "my father is greater than I".

Depends on who you believe by your own spiritual seeking rather than following the crowded path. I guess.

Phantasman said:

Gnosis teaches a monarchy:

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I think Jesus taught that, as you said. So why substitute "gnosis" for Christ?

John 8;40 "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God."

The secret of the trinity lies in it being a revelation of a name (singular), "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19. It is a trinity of revelation (to men), not of composition (by men).

Man is not entitled to compose a Trinitarian God. He can only submit to a revelation of one God by three. As to composition, the word "God" infers the throne of God, which belongs to the Father, but which he shares with the Word of God. The throne is an indivisible entitly. Hence one God.

"God the Son" is meaningless by description as it fails to acknowledge the authority of the Father. It is also meaningless by analogy in that a son is an heir, but the Word is not heir to the Father.

Deidre said:

Re: the Trinity, my understanding is that it isn't three separate gods, of course...but rather One God...revealed in three different personas. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

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Well they claim it is only one God, because the scripture clearly says there is only one God. But in the next breath say there is a God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, which are 3 separate distinct persons. That means more than one God no matter what they claim.

TrueBeliever37 said:

Well they claim it is only one God, because the scripture clearly says there is only one God. But in the next breath say there is a God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, which are 3 separate distinct persons. That means more than one God no matter what they claim.

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I get the contradiction and I don't personally believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. However, I do believe that three separate and physically distinct personages may and do share a title: "God." If God is used as a synonym for "Godhead," it is a collective noun much like the collective nouns, "team," "jury" and "orchestra." All of these are comprised of separate and physically distinct persons, but in each case there is an understood unity. So if three divine persons all have the attributes of godhood, and if their will and purpose for mankind are all the same and they are not in any way at odds with one another, I believe they can be referred to either individually or collectively as "God."

Katzpur said:

I get the contradiction and I don't personally believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. However, I do believe that three separate and physically distinct personages may and do share a title: "God." If God is used as a synonym for "Godhead," it is a collective noun much like the collective nouns, "team," "jury" and "orchestra." All of these are comprised of separate and physically distinct persons, but in each case there is an understood unity. So if three divine persons all have the attributes of godhood, and if their will and purpose for mankind are all the same and they are not in any way at odds with one another, I believe they can be referred to either individually or collectively as "God."

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Hi Katzpur,

If they can be referred to individually as God, and there are 3 of them, then don't you have 3 Gods? 1 God + 1 God + 1 God = ? Gods

If you have 3 divine persons - then don't you have 3 Gods?

If God is a team of 3, then isn't any one of the 3, just a part of God or the team?

Bonus Question - Which of the 3 is the Father?
A. The Son
B. The one called the Father
C. The one called the Holy Spirit, but of which Matthew 1:18-20 says, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit , and that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit

or is it just possible, that since God is a Spirit (not 3 persons) , and he is holy, and there is only one Spirit, and he said he would pour out his Spirit on all flesh - That the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Spirit , and not different persons as Trinitarians claim?