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How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Where is the Baha'i Faith in the pie chart?

We're working on it.:) We are much younger than the others.

And which manifestation taught these people all these multiple gods?

None of them.

That is not doing a good job at teaching that there is only one God. That is why I'm thinking it is more likely these people made up their own religion by what they observed in nature.

The 'One God' Abrahamics are in the majority and growing the most rapidly.

And how do they usually progress to a more sophisticated belief system? I think most of the time they got conquered and the new religion was forced on them.

Conquest has been an undeniable part of history. However, alone that does not account for the great world religions having endured millennia. They have each produced a narrative and theology that have brought meaning, hope, and inspiration to their followers.

The purpose of each Manifestation of God has been to“educate the souls of men, and refine the character of every living man…

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Is that part of progressive revelation, or do you have a different take on it?

I think we need to go back to the purpose of religion.

Religion, writes Baha'u'llah is “the chief instrument for the establishment of order in the world, and of tranquillity amongst its peoples.

The Purpose of Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
@Carlita

Baha'u'llah didn't need to travel to meet all the Prophets and of God Messengers. This is one instance where Baha'u'llah conversed with Them all night on the eve of His departure from Baghdad. In a dream He had at the time this is what He recounts. Clearly Baha'u'llah is being addressed not as God but as a Prophet.

I saw,” He wrote in a Tablet, “the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: ‘We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!’ They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: ‘…Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld…. Be patient, be patient.’… They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn. (Ruhi Book 4 Section 22)

Why on earth would Buddha and Krishna be weeping? A dharmic God crying would mean he's no God at all. This kind of dream is just the classical projection type, where people can fly, get introduced to pretty ladies, and the like. It's your desires projected into a dream. Any good dream psychologist could tell you that.

Heck, I've had dreams like this. So have tons of people.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
From your link on Islam:

...Islam teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross but was instead raised up to the heavens by God."

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-


— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158

One interpretation is that although they crucified Him they did not kill His spirit. In this manner there is no contradiction.

So, Christians believe Jesus is part of a triune God, and was raised from the dead, and ascended to heaven. Islam says that he never died but was raised up to the heavens.

What again do the Baha'is say? Wasn't it something about Jesus being dead and buried and that ascending into the sky is not scientific, so it could not have happened? Add to that the thing about the NT really meant the "body of believers" came to life.

That's right.

So what's up with Muhammad? Why didn't he tell the truth about Jesus like Baha'u'llah did?

I hope I've demonstrated there is no contradiction.

And you say the Bab was return of the twelfth Imam as recorded in the Hadith? Are the Hadith from the manifestation or traditions? Do the Sunni's agree with you? If not, why are the things believed by the Shia the truth and not the Sunni's?

The Hadith are based on alleged sayings, actions, and habits of Muhammad. The matter of succession and the imams is what separates the Shi'ite from the Sunni. The Baha'is side with the Shi'ites on this matter.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
How do you know we have a soul? What do the different religions teach about the soul? Where did it come from and where is it going?

Because the Manifestations of God tell us we do.

If I listen to teachers of the different religions, each would probably give me a different answer. Each based on their Scriptures or traditions.

That is true. Then we need to look at whether or not the writings that allegedly reflect what the Manifestation said are authoritative and authentic.

This thread is still going on, because Baha'is can only make all religions one in the most simplistic, generalized ways. Even, "We all believe in the same God" doesn't even work. You have to get even more basic than that.

Not really. There is a reasonable amount of consistency if we consider Islam, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. Judaism is somewhat different in that Moses did not emphasise the afterlife. We have insufficient information to be certain what the other religions really taught.

For those of you that accept the Baha'i Faith, it is easy. You can have come from all sorts of different beliefs, but now... you are Baha'is and put your trust in the things your religion teaches. Unfortunately, what your religion teaches clashes with the teachings of the other religions.

The clash is inevitable and something we need to work constructively to resolve where possible. The Baha'is on this thread are more than capable of resolving these differences with the Abrahamic Faiths. Most of us have come from countries or family backgrounds where Christianity or Islam has been the main religion. Some of us converted to the Baha'i Faith as adults and have been adherents of Christianity previously so this is relatively easy. The challenge with the Dharmic Faiths for the Baha'is here, myself included, is that we don't have the same level of knowledge or experience as we do for the Abrahamic Faiths. That's good because its an opportunity to learn. I haven't seen any Baha'is claiming to be experts in Hinduism or Buddhism.

You have teachings that try and explain away those differences, but they aren't all that convincing to strong believers in other religions. Weak ones? Sure. Those not all that much into the beliefs of their religion? Those looking for a more logical religion? Those looking for a religion that claims they have the answers to the problems of the modern world? Sure. But, there are more new religions out there not just the Baha'is. And, you have updates of the old ones, or "revivals" of that "old time" religion. So you still have so much competition. And, they all say that they have the truth.

It's all good really. The Baha'i faith has grown rapidly and spread far and wide in a relatively short period of time. On RF we have Baha'is who can discuss matters of religion respectfully and intelligently. None of us are experts and we are all ordinary people. We just do the best we can and trust in God.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hold on, before you get a big head over being called a "Winner" for this post. Huge problem, the Baha'is take the Book of Revelation and say that some of the prophecies in it were fulfilled by Muslim leaders? I think it had to do with the Beast and the Anti-Christ. I doubt if it was you that posted that, but is that the official Baha'i interpretation of Revelation or somebody's guess?

The book of revelations is arguably the most difficult book in the bible. There are twenty two chapters and some prophetic verses refer to Islam. The verses about the beast and the anti-Christ don't relate specifically to Islam but those within religion who corrupt it.

Abdu'l-Baha has interpreted chapters 11 and 12.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Well that throws another .. lots of word salad.
As compared to what Buddha said, what you are saying is a terrible word salad.
The quote by Frank Colby was referring to how some people who are appears very successful in one area of their life such as in the arts and sciences, may be disproportionately weak in another area such as in the social/personal life.
I am trying to rlate the quote to the matter of the topic, but I fail.
The Buddha did say he has always existed through rebirth and now that he was enlightened, he can finally die. So it wouldn't make sense for him to come back to live in suffering again regardless if he came as Maitreya.
Buddha never believed in reincarnation. According to Buddha you are re-born every moment. A Bodhisattva on way to become a Buddha could succeed or fail. It all depends on what he does and that depends on what he/she thinks.
The Baha'is count on the stagnation of a religion to justify the need of another manifestation.
Why is a manifestation needed for that? What is our brain for? Can't we do our thinking? Should we always depend on what these people who have no proof but still claim to be sons, messengers or manifestations of a God whose existence has never been proved? I do not know why people are so susceptible and believe whatever people say.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I saw,” He wrote in a Tablet, “the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: ‘We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!’ They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: ‘…Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld…. Be patient, be patient.’… They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn. (Ruhi Book 4 Section 22)

Bahai religion is getting stranger and stranger. The Buddha doesn't cry because he got rid of all his attachments and trained his mind to understand the nature of suffering and how to end it. Therefore, he would have nothing to cry for since his motive is to help those from suffering not cry because he needs a god to help him or a manif of god to help him. Even a Hindu god wouldn't be in a crying position to help The Buddha end suffering. That's not Buddhism.

Why on earth would Buddha and Krishna be weeping? A dharmic God crying would mean he's no God at all. This kind of dream is just the classical projection type, where people can fly, get introduced to pretty ladies, and the like. It's your desires projected into a dream. Any good dream psychologist could tell you that.

That is weird, I can see that.

I do not think they understand that unity cannot be about their belief. They don't understand unity does not mean Bahaullah is the foundation. We are the foundation (guys: @loverofhumanity @InvestigateTruth @adrian009 ) not god. That is the common foundation, our diversity.

If possible, when you speak of your truth, say we-humanity believe.... because if it is unity, everyone should agree. There is no more We-Bahai.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Exactly, and if a person believes in their religion, and takes it as the very Word of God, then they are not going to listen or care about what some other religion says is true.

Your truth gets rid of all the beliefs in the different religions that would make those religions unique. For the Pentecostal, they believe the Bible and the NT teaches that they can speak in "tongues" and heal. They get this power from their belief in their God. They experience it as real. Is it? Are they really speaking in some unknown language? When they lay hands on somebody, does that person really get healed? Some maybe do. Some maybe think they are. Probably a lot don't get healed. But most keep believing.

They could care less about what Baha'is say, because they don't believe it is from God... at least not their concept of God. Once you say Jesus is not God and did not rise from the dead, they are out the door and just labeled you a false religion.

Christ was crucified for speaking the truth. All the Prophets suffered greatly for speaking the truth. The same it will be with Baha'u'llah.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Why on earth would Buddha and Krishna be weeping? A dharmic God crying would mean he's no God at all. This kind of dream is just the classical projection type, where people can fly, get introduced to pretty ladies, and the like. It's your desires projected into a dream. Any good dream psychologist could tell you that.

Heck, I've had dreams like this. So have tons of people.

My point was that Bahaullah was able to converse with all the Messengers without having to do so physically. This was just one example of it happening in a dream. It is not necessary to always travel to a physical location or a time and place to meet someone if one is a Manifestation of God.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Buddha never believed in reincarnation. According to Buddha you are re-born every moment. A Bodhisattva on way to become a Buddha could succeed or fail. It all depends on what he does and that depends on what he/she thinks.

It isn't reincarnation. I never said that at all. You're talking to the wrong person.

It's just rebirth, the continuous life when he, The Buddha, said he was enlightened before he was enlightened, when he was a bodhisattva, came to his enlightenment, to his missionary, taught people the nature of rebirth (not reincarnation; I never said that), and let them understand this for understanding the nature of suffering and kamma was the end to rebirth. It has nothing to do with Hinduism, reincarnation, and gods.

You're talking to the wrong person on this.

Please do not question what I know unless you get to know what I experience and the background of this conversation.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Bahai religion is getting stranger and stranger. The Buddha doesn't cry because he got rid of all his attachments and trained his mind to understand the nature of suffering and how to end it. Therefore, he would have nothing to cry for since his motive is to help those from suffering not cry because he needs a god to help him or a manif of god to help him. Even a Hindu god wouldn't be in a crying position to help The Buddha end suffering. That's not Buddhism.



That is weird, I can see that.

I do not think they understand that unity cannot be about their belief. They don't understand unity does not mean Bahaullah is the foundation. We are the foundation (guys: @loverofhumanity @InvestigateTruth @adrian009 ) not god. That is the common foundation, our diversity.

If possible, when you speak of your truth, say we-humanity believe.... because if it is unity, everyone should agree. There is no more We-Bahai.

The Manifestation of God has many mystical experiences we do not understand. Baha'u'llah was the reason all the Prophets of God have appeared.

But for Baha'u'llah none of the other Messengers, not Buddha nor Moses, Christ, the Vedic Scriptures, the Bible nor any other religion have been revealed. He says this Himself in His Own Words......

But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the Robe of Prophethood, nor would any of the sacred Scriptures have been revealed." Baha'u'llah
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The Manifestation of God has many mystical experiences we do not understand. Baha'u'llah was the reason all the Prophets of God have appeared.

But for Baha'u'llah none of the other Messengers, not Buddha nor Moses, Christ, the Vedic Scriptures, the Bible nor any other religion have been revealed. He says this Himself in His Own Words......

But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the Robe of Prophethood, nor would any of the sacred Scriptures have been revealed." Baha'u'llah

Does the other religions have any say in what you tell them about their faith in yours? I mean, a Hindu would know more about what Krishna says and who he is than any Bahai. In all honesty, does Bahai care what Hindu say on the matter or respectfully tell them they are wrong by quoting scriptures about their own faith rather than addressing the conflict the Hindu brings up in your faith with theirs?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I am trying to rlate the quote to the matter of the topic, but I fail.

Its a somewhat irrelevant aside so all good. I like your phrase word salad. Its a term used in psychiatry as well to describe the speech of some people who are psychotic. That's probably irrelevant too....

I see you are from New Dehli. Ever been to the Baha'i Lotus temple?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I seem to write when I'm not focus on writing, but when I sit in front of my desk with blank paper in front of me, I can't think of a think to write.

It is one of the many paradoxes of the human condition.:) If you want something you don't get it, if you don't want it, then it comes. It sounds very Buddhist.

I would have to believe in the GOA first before going any further with what I understand of Bahai so far. That, and I can see how people are inspired by god and to a point can speak to others how god speaks to them. If I picked the GOA or Brahma, I'd probably be closer to believing in Brahma. Though, thousands of posts ago Lover did say Brahma (Vishnu and Krishna) are all GOA. So, although false, I guess everyone's entitled to their belief. :shrug:

What is GOA?

I side with the jews with not defining god and speaking his name. In the NT, Jesus says to refer to his Father as I AM. In my personal view, I don't see god speaking through a human but through our experiences and how we relate to ourselves, environment, and other people. Without TLC (both love and Traditions, Language, and Culture), there would be no god.

I believe its both. God speak through us and through His manifestations.

Interesting statement about TLC. I would argue that God existed before we did. However to know God and worship Him to the fullest extent, then we need TLC. However while the TLC can assist, it can also be a barrier.

think jesus talked to Elijah. I can't remember if the other was Moses.

It was both Elijah and Moses present at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3.) In the next world dimensions such as time and space may not exist so it maybe possible to have a meeting of the Manifestations of God as you suggested (Albeit jokingly)

That is weird, I can see that.

I do not think they understand that unity cannot be about their belief. They don't understand unity does not mean Bahaullah is the foundation. We are the foundation (guys: @loverofhumanity @InvestigateTruth @adrian009 ) not god. That is the common foundation, our diversity.

I agree we are the foundation. However we also need a shared understanding. The shared understanding comes from your TLC. The Manifestations have made an essential contribution to TLCs.

If possible, when you speak of your truth, say we-humanity believe.... because if it is unity, everyone should agree. There is no more We-Bahai.

I don't believe we need to agree on everything, but it certainly helps to agree on some things.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It is one of the many paradoxes of the human condition.:) If you want something you don't get it, if you don't want it, then it comes. It sounds very Buddhist.

Ha ha. Sometimes I fall into Buddhist mode, sometimes I go back to the spirits. They are both truth. Just The Buddha doesn't teach about spirits (and god for that matter ;) ).

What is GOA?

Haha. I pound that acronym to death with Loverofhumanity. God of Abraham. Though, I don't think you all believe in the god of abraham as I listen to how you define manifestations in relation to The Buddha, Krishna, and Jesus. Interesting mix but not abrahamic at all.

I believe its both. God speak through us and through His manifestations.

God would speak through us regardless of who we are. That's another thing about Buddhism compared to GOA religions. There isn't a separation in status just who is enlightened, who teaches, and who are lay people, gods, etc waiting and practicing to become enlightened.

In other words, it's redundant.

Interesting statement about TLC. I would argue that God existed before we did. However to know God and worship Him to the fullest extent, then we need TLC. However while the TLC can assist, it can also be a barrier.

I never understood the worship part. What's the point of worship?

It could be a barrier. It depends on the person no the TLC.

It was both Elijah and Moses present at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3.) In the next world dimensions such as time and space may not exist so it maybe possible to have a meeting of the Manifestations of God as you suggested (Albeit jokingly)

I agree we are the foundation. However we also need a shared understanding. The shared understanding comes from your TLC. The Manifestations have made an essential contribution to TLCs.

Shared understanding is a start. Though no one I know would compromise their beliefs to find agreement so the best we can get is mutual respect. Of course, again, that respect involves respecting people's rights to their religion. Cough. Cough.

I don't believe we need to agree on everything, but it certainly helps to agree on some things.

If you are building unity among diversity, there needs to be an agreement/a statement of unity that all people will be comfortable with. Since not everyone believes in god, it can't start there.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Does the other religions have any say in what you tell them about their faith in yours? I mean, a Hindu would know more about what Krishna says and who he is than any Bahai. In all honesty, does Bahai care what Hindu say on the matter or respectfully tell them they are wrong by quoting scriptures about their own faith rather than addressing the conflict the Hindu brings up in your faith with theirs?

By all means we can share our different views. I have learned a lot from Hindus and I thank them for that.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
By all means we can share our different views. I have learned a lot from Hindus and I thank them for that.

I don't think you understand the difference. Let me ask again,

Does the other religions have any say in what you tell them about their faith in yours?

I mean, a Hindu would know more about what Krishna says and who he is than any Bahai. (In other words, regardless of how much you learn from them, since you are not Hindu, learning is besides the point. It's not about intellect).

In all honesty, does Bahai care what Hindu say on the matter or respectfully tell them they are wrong by quoting scriptures about their own faith rather than addressing the conflict the Hindu brings up in your faith with theirs?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I don't think you understand the difference. Let me ask again,

Does the other religions have any say in what you tell them about their faith in yours?

I mean, a Hindu would know more about what Krishna says and who he is than any Bahai. (In other words, regardless of how much you learn from them, since you are not Hindu, learning is besides the point. It's not about intellect).

In all honesty, does Bahai care what Hindu say on the matter or respectfully tell them they are wrong by quoting scriptures about their own faith rather than addressing the conflict the Hindu brings up in your faith with theirs?

Which conflict are you speaking about - We believe that with regards the moral and ethical teachings all the religions have a common foundation and are basically agreed with no conflict?

You may believe that but we see the Manifestation of God as the only One Who truly understands the truth and reality of all religions not the followers.

When Christ appeared He said to the Jewish High Priests..

If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. (John 5:46)

Although the Pharisees and Saducees were the most learned men of their day, Christ pronounced them to be ignorant of their own Holy Books.

See how a Manifestation of God has declared the Jewish priests ignorant of their own Holy Books?

And what did they do to Christ for speaking the truth? They crucified Him.

Now this is reoccurring with the coming of Baha'u'llah. We Baha'is can only refer to Baha'u'llah for divine guidance as we know Him to be All Knowing.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Which conflict are you speaking about - We believe that with regards the moral and ethical teachings all the religions have a common foundation and are basically agreed with no conflict?

It has to go both ways. Hindu has to agree with you and you with Hindu. It isn't a one-sided agreement. It isn't about you. "We" is all humanity. If humanity does not agree with you, what you say is just a Bahai belief. Your goal has to incorporate all people not just Bahai.

We listed a lot of conflicts in this whole thread. If you want unity, you have to get over that there is no conflict, listen to the other party, and accept they know more than you about thier own belief. They know the facts. You have beliefs.

Yes, you guys can disagree but your goal isn't "agree to disagree" but to one day have one foundation of diverse religious expression. That can't happen if you guys don't agree on the foundations. It works both ways.

You may believe that but we see the Manifestation of God as the only One Who truly understands the truth and reality of all religions not the followers.

As long as you say "we believe", you separate yourself from us. There is no unity among separation-this is your words. It's called division. You don't see peace among division and you just divided yourself from us.

See how a Manifestation of God has declared the Jewish priests ignorant of their own Holy Books?

That is disrespectful. If you want unity, you can't believe that because that isn't Jewish belief. If you feel the Jews are lying, own up to your belief and differences. Once you agree, you just belittled Jewish belief. They don't agree with you. Take their view into consideration or be divided.

And what did they do to Christ for speaking the truth? They crucified Him.

Which makes sense. If someone spoke against god and said things that contradicted their faith and tradition, it would make that person mad. While I don't agree with crucifixion, at the time that's what they wanted. Who can blame them? Unless you're saying jesus isn't a savior because the jews killed him instead of him choosing to die by his father's choice not the hands of the jews.

Now this is reoccurring with the coming of Baha'u'llah. We Baha'is can only refer to Baha'u'llah for divine guidance as we know Him to be All Knowing.

That's not the belief of humanity. It's not a common foundation that all humanity share.

If you want that unity among diversity, you have to incorporate all. There is no We-Bahai. It's We-as a humanity.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
It has to go both ways. Hindu has to agree with you and you with Hindu. It isn't a one-sided agreement. It isn't about you. "We" is all humanity. If humanity does not agree with you, what you say is just a Bahai belief. Your goal has to incorporate all people not just Bahai.

We listed a lot of conflicts in this whole thread. If you want unity, you have to get over that there is no conflict, listen to the other party, and accept they know more than you about thier own belief. They know the facts. You have beliefs.

Yes, you guys can disagree but your goal isn't "agree to disagree" but to one day have one foundation of diverse religious expression. That can't happen if you guys don't agree on the foundations. It works both ways.



As long as you say "we believe", you separate yourself from us. There is no unity among separation-this is your words. It's called division. You don't see peace among division and you just divided yourself from us.



That is disrespectful. If you want unity, you can't believe that because that isn't Jewish belief. If you feel the Jews are lying, own up to your belief and differences. Once you agree, you just belittled Jewish belief. They don't agree with you. Take their view into consideration or be divided.



Which makes sense. If someone spoke against god and said things that contradicted their faith and tradition, it would make that person mad. While I don't agree with crucifixion, at the time that's what they wanted. Who can blame them? Unless you're saying jesus isn't a savior because the jews killed him instead of him choosing to die by his father's choice not the hands of the jews.



That's not the belief of humanity. It's not a common foundation that all humanity share.

If you want that unity among diversity, you have to incorporate all. There is no We-Bahai. It's We-as a humanity.

Unity of belief will not likely happen until a after a very long, long time.

However, agreeing we are one human family as opposed to exclusive nationalism can have the whole of humanity working together for the benefit of all not just their race, religion, country or gender.

No one is excluded from this and it doesn't matter if one believes in God or not. By accepting that we are all different but human we can achieve unity.
 
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