How are these Great Beings explained?

loverofhumanity said:

It's the Manifestation of God Who is the One Who judges on these matters as He soeaks for God Himself. Whatever He says is what God has said. Whatever He deems true or untrue is what God has deemed true or untrue...

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Exactly, and if a person believes in their religion, and takes it as the very Word of God, then they are not going to listen or care about what some other religion says is true.

Your truth gets rid of all the beliefs in the different religions that would make those religions unique. For the Pentecostal, they believe the Bible and the NT teaches that they can speak in "tongues" and heal. They get this power from their belief in their God. They experience it as real. Is it? Are they really speaking in some unknown language? When they lay hands on somebody, does that person really get healed? Some maybe do. Some maybe think they are. Probably a lot don't get healed. But most keep believing.

They could care less about what Baha'is say, because they don't believe it is from God... at least not their concept of God. Once you say Jesus is not God and did not rise from the dead, they are out the door and just labeled you a false religion.

adrian009 said:

...The point of agreement is we have a soul or spirit that progresses to a life beyond this one.

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How do you know we have a soul? What do the different religions teach about the soul? Where did it come from and where is it going?

If I listen to teachers of the different religions, each would probably give me a different answer. Each based on their Scriptures or traditions.

This thread is still going on, because Baha'is can only make all religions one in the most simplistic, generalized ways. Even, "We all believe in the same God" doesn't even work. You have to get even more basic than that.

For those of you that accept the Baha'i Faith, it is easy. You can have come from all sorts of different beliefs, but now... you are Baha'is and put your trust in the things your religion teaches. Unfortunately, what your religion teaches clashes with the teachings of the other religions.

You have teachings that try and explain away those differences, but they aren't all that convincing to strong believers in other religions. Weak ones? Sure. Those not all that much into the beliefs of their religion? Those looking for a more logical religion? Those looking for a religion that claims they have the answers to the problems of the modern world? Sure. But, there are more new religions out there not just the Baha'is. And, you have updates of the old ones, or "revivals" of that "old time" religion. So you still have so much competition. And, they all say that they have the truth.

adrian009 said:

I can understand why it is hard to see how a Persian man born into Islam would be the fulfilment of prophecies in Christianity. Then again, the Jews can not understand how Jesus was the Messiah they are still waiting for.

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Hold on, before you get a big head over being called a "Winner" for this post. Huge problem, the Baha'is take the Book of Revelation and say that some of the prophecies in it were fulfilled by Muslim leaders? I think it had to do with the Beast and the Anti-Christ. I doubt if it was you that posted that, but is that the official Baha'i interpretation of Revelation or somebody's guess?

Aupmanyav said:

Trying to get what he meant. Or you explain.

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The quote by Frank Colby was referring to how some people who are appears very successful in one area of their life such as in the arts and sciences, may be disproportionately weak in another area such as in the social/personal life.

Aupmanyav said:

If anyone leaves the fold, then the person is no longer our concern. We wish him/her all happiness. However, we are still a billion strong.

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I'm sure that's correct. However, I wasn't referring to Hinduism as a primitive religion. I was considering the early religions of indigenous peoples.

InvestigateTruth said:

You know that, one of the things that Bible teaches, is: the Prophecies of future are often expressed in Symbols and Figures.

In Old Testament, a Prophet said, He had a Vision, the Son of Man, coming with clouds...
In New Testament, Jesus repeated the same words, when describing the Signs of His coming back.
In Old Testament there are many passages, when, a Prophet says, He had a vision...then in some cases, even He gives their interpretations, which is not a literal interpretation, but symbolic.
In some case a passage is prophetic, but it may not appear so, untill the event comes to pass. You know about the Prophecies about Messiah, and how Christians believed some passages in OT were prophetic, but the Jews disagree....

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No, way off the point. Luke, Mark, Matthew and John wrote their gospels. In those gospels did they write about things that Jesus said and did? Did they, themselves, write some things that were symbolic? Maybe John at the start of his gospel, but after that wasn't he telling of supposed actual events that took place? Why would all four, after telling of the historical events, start talking in symbolically about the post crucifixion events?

If the "real" resurrection was the body of believers, for me the rest of each gospel story doesn't make any sense.

CG Didymus said:

No, way off the point. Luke, Mark, Matthew and John wrote their gospels. In those gospels did they write about things that Jesus said and did? Did they, themselves, write some things that were symbolic? Maybe John at the start of his gospel, but after that wasn't he telling of supposed actual events that took place? Why would all four, after telling of the historical events, start talking in symbolically about the post crucifixion events?

If the "real" resurrection was the body of believers, for me the rest of each gospel story doesn't make any sense.

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Did luke, Mark, etc said they are writing literal historical facts? We would to refer to their own statements in Bible, with regards to their own statements.

Carlita said:

Actually, no. If we have mutual respect among people who believe in different gods, no god,

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This would be a peaceful planet it that were the case. But the entire idea of whether or not this should be a peaceful planet is under attack elsewhere on this forum. It's an assumption Baha'u'llah made. Perhaps he saw too much suffering from Islam. As eastern faiths know all too well, peace is found inside, not outside.

Mutual respect, mutual respect, mutual respect. We can never say it enough.

Aupmanyav said:

I do not think Maitreya is something that Buddha taught. "The religious belief of Maitreya apparently developed around the same time as that of Amitabha, as early as the 3rd century CE" - Wikipedia-Maitreya). Buddha said everyone has the potentiality for enlightenment and become a Buddha.

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Yep. To add to that, Maitreya is a bodhisattva. The Buddha said to his disciples they will become buddhas. The Buddha did say he has always existed through rebirth and now that he was enlightened, he can finally die. So it wouldn't make sense for him to come back to live in suffering again regardless if he came as Maitreya. You're right, too. It did come around when amita reverence came about. There is still some debate about the authenticity of amita and buddhism. When I visited their temple, the owner said Pure Land Buddhism is a bit like monotheism. The layout was similar to western churches but then again, that's here in the states.

Vinayaka said:

This would be a peaceful planet it that were the case. But the entire idea of whether or not this should be a peaceful planet is under attack elsewhere on this forum. It's an assumption Baha'u'llah made. Perhaps he saw too much suffering from Islam. As eastern faiths know all too well, peace is found inside, not outside.

Mutual respect, mutual respect, mutual respect. We can never say it enough.

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Could be. I side with The Buddha on this. To make peace is to contradict the nature of kamma (if I understand it correctly) and how life is defined by rebirth and nature of suffering (birth, age, sickness, and death). Without which, there would be peace. Though rebirth was understanding the nature of suffering and how to end our perception of it so we won't be stuck in illusions as if suffering defines us.

Does Hinduism teach something similar to this? I'm going off what I know but wish there was some input from someone who's more familiar with Buddhism on a cultural level.

Carlita said:

Wait, if it is a progression from one manifestation to the next, wouldn't they all, Bahaullah included, come from the same source (dependant of previous manifestations)?

Since Bahaullah isn't the isn't the last manifestation, wouldn't it be correct to assume he doesn't have "the answer" but who is part of the gods (krishna), prophets (jesus, moses, and zoroaster), and educators (The Buddha) who all, in progression, have the same answer from the same god with the same message?

If there are similarities, why are they not dependant on each other as your peers say they are? (When there is a progression of the same message, by default, they are dependant on each other as child to his mother)

The last part is different than what your peers say. All manifestations point to the same source. Is that true or not?

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If from the same source why couldn't they say... First manifestation: "God is one. All people are one. You have a soul. If you do good here, you will be closer to God. Here are your rules from God to obey." Second manifestation: "I'd just like to reiterate what my esteemed colleague has said so eloquently. And would now like to add a few rules that apply only to you at this time. When the next manifestation comes he will change a few of these "social laws". So don't go getting down on each other if you can't keep them perfectly."

The reality is we hear things like... "There are many Gods" "According to your Karma, you will return again and again." From one religion, then we hear, "There is a battle in heaven between good and evil. Good wins out." Then, "These are the Laws of God for you to obey for ever." The Christians come along and say, "No one is saved by following the Law. Salvation comes only in believing in Jesus Christ and his shed blood." Then Islam contradicts Christian beliefs and says, "Jesus didn't die on the cross" Then the Baha'is come along and say, "All religion taught basically the same thing. They all came from the same source, the one true God."

It doesn't seem possible for me that they all came from the same source.

Aupmanyav said:

You know Indian religions are not meant to be monolithic. People are encouraged to think and discuss and even make changes. No topics are barred from this discussion including the existence of God and soul. Even if people have different views, they live together peacefully and happily. The advance of science are accepted. The books of law are written in various ages which reflect the changes in society. What does not change is humane action, which we term as 'dharma', i.e., fulfillment of one's duty and engaging in righteous action. Hinduism is not a static religion, it is dynamic...

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The Baha'is count on the stagnation of a religion to justify the need of another manifestation. Everything you have said, especially about science being accepted and laws changing to meet the needs of the time, is a crucial part of Baha'i teachings. Maybe they aren't as new and unique as they think they are?

InvestigateTruth said:

...In Bahai View, in Reality there is Only One Manifestation of God. That means, in Reality, Bahaullah, was Muhammad, was Jesus, was Moses, was Buddha, was Krishna...etc...

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So the Spirit of God reincarnated into different bodies?

Carlita said:

Does Hinduism teach something similar to this?

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Yes, and both great dharmic religions vary by sect of course. We Hindus see the world as a tool, a learning place, not as evil, and attachment to it as the cause of personal suffering. But because there is always a range of souls at varying levels of understanding, the planet itself will never be some utopian peaceful place. The very peaceful people who have attained nirvana, nirvikalpa samadhi (interesting first syllable there, I just noticed this now) simply don't come back, except to guide others along the path, which is still the individual's path alone. In mystic Hinduism we know of 14 nadis within the sushumna that can all be inner pathways to moksha/nirvana.

So here are two more very important paradigm differences ... what this planet can (can't) become, and the deep esoteric mysticism only available by dropping the intellect, and getting jnana from meditation.

CG Didymus said:

It doesn't seem possible for me that they all came from the same source.

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With so many contradictions, how could they?

Carlita said:

Jesus was a Jew, though. That makes more sense given he taught Jewish teachings.

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I doubt if too many people would disagree that Jesus was a Jew and He taught Jewish teachings. However I'm with the Christians in that He brought new teachings from God and a new covenant.

Carlita said:

In another thread, I read something about Paul and the apostles were the ones who "created christianity".

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Hmmm. I can see what they mean and they have a point in that the apostles developed an understanding of Christ's message. I believe they elaborated and clarified His teachings. I don't think they put aside Christ's teachings and taught there own thing.

I would agree with the Christians that it was God who created Christianity. Jesus brought a message from God. The apostles were guided by God's unerring spirit.

Carlita said:

I side with the Jews on that one.

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I think the Jews have a point, but I'm more with the Christians.

Carlita said:

Yeah. It's weird. Bahaullah going to Jerusalem, going outward to Rome, then flying over to Nepali. Taking a break over at different parts of India, then traveling over to Israel, then taking a vacation in Iran. I know it's the Eastern part of the world, but he does have a means to travel.

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Ha ha. As you appreciate, another explanation is that the One God of the universe (I know you don't believe in Him) inspired Baha'u'llah and revealed Himself through Baha'u'llah.

Carlita said:

The only way logically I can see that possible is as Lover and Investigar says, Bahaullah is, well, god. He'd, Bahaullah, have to take the words of the Moses, apostles, and disciples of The Buddha, and put them together while disregarding the traditions, languages, and cultures of the different areas he traveled to given they are so different, they can't be collided. Even though Jesus and The Buddha never wrote a thing and their teachings were orally transmitted, I guess that wouldn't matter as long since only the written teachings are sacred not oral traditions.

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....or God speaks through these people. Clearly oral traditions have been an important part of the transmission of their teachings, and we all know the potential problems with that.

Carlita said:

Meanwhile, as all of these things are happening, Bahaullah would have to have traveled in the years these prophets (jesus included) were alive. He'd have to be a somewhat superman and time travel (or god) to do so, really.

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You're an artist. Your imagination is quite vivid.

Carlita said:

It's puzzling, though, if Bahaullah talked with jesus and said "hey, I dont believe you're god, but you are a manifestation of him..." and then go to Moses and Muhammad and tell them the same thing. All three would wonder if you're not making them equal to god, which is a big no-no and if they are not god, then what in the, um, world is a manifestation.

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Didn't Jesus talk to Moses?

Carlita said:

If god (Krishna), the prophets (Moses, Zoaraster, and Jesus), and enlightened ones (over 1,000s of Buddhas-let's say the historical Buddha and one of his bodhisattvas, Maitreya) sat in a circle with Bahaullah, son, and grandson, and Bahaullah said to them they are manifestations of god and educators, Krishna would probably say "well, that's kinda redundant. I am god." Well, he'd be more "I'm an incarnation of Vishnu who is an incarnation of Brahma so you're talking to the wrong person."

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This is the result of 5000+ posts on this thread?

Carlita said:

Then (going by lover and investigator's conversation) jesus would pipe in and say, well, I never said I was equal to god in the beginning, so how would I be equal to god regardless if you guys called me god or a manifestation of him? Are you saying, I'm an image of god? But, Bahaullah, you're not even my disciple. That's right, neither Jew or gentile, man or woman, okay, I give you that.

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I think @C G Didymus influence is apparent here.

Carlita said:

Muhammad would have similar sentiments with jesus about him being equal to god. Moses would probably get angry and throw the tablets on the ground telling Muhammad, Zoroaster (though he didn't say a word), and Bahaullah they are not hearing the word of god but an idol.

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The ironies and contradictions abound.

Carlita said:

While Krishna would be, well, I'm not even a human like you guys are, so why am I here in the first place?

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Carlita said:

Haha. I can go on. It's not meant to be sarcastic just an interesting conclusion of what if these people and gods were sitting around talking to each other and whether they'd all agree with Bahaullah that they are manifestations of themselves or would keep to their own teachings and who they are. But once Bahaullah has the right to override their and their followers knowledge of them (going by Lover), and saying god gives them the right, then all of them would probably have a hissy fit and jesus calling him a fool.

If I wrote a story about this, it would be interesting.

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I agree it would be interesting. Good luck with writing. Its the story of religion and humanity after all.

Vinayaka said:

What was Baha'u'llah's wisdom on computers? Please quote from his writings. What did he think of Donald Trump? Please quote from his writings.

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You know it would be nice to know some of Baha'u'llah predictions of future events. Did he say anything about the Civil War in the U.S.? How about WWI and WWII? How about Communism and Soviet Union and China, and now North Korea? Did he foretell of radical Islam?

When I was around Baha'i back in the 70's, there was a "Pilgrim Note", an unauthorized quote from the Baha'i leadership, that said San Francisco would be vaporized. Did, I guess it was Shoghi Effendi, really say such a thing? And if he said it, why wouldn't it be "official" Baha'i teachings? Is some of the things he said wrong?

But yes, computers? How about jet planes and going to the moon? I know they have some predictions. Like all the rulers that didn't listen to him lost power. But that was 150 years ago. I wonder what they say about right now?

InvestigateTruth said:

Did luke, Mark, etc said they are writing literal historical facts? We would to refer to their own statements in Bible, with regards to their own statements.

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And what did Luke and the others say about their writings?

adrian009 said:

I doubt if too many people would disagree that Jesus was a Jew and He taught Jewish teachings. However I'm with the Christians in that He brought new teachings from God and a new covenant.



Hmmm. I can see what they mean and they have a point in that the apostles developed an understanding of Christ's message. I believe they elaborated and clarified His teachings. I don't think they put aside Christ's teachings and taught there own thing.

I would agree with the Christians that it was God who created Christianity. Jesus brought a message from God. The apostles were guided by God's unerring spirit.



I think the Jews have a point, but I'm more with the Christians.



Ha ha. As you appreciate, another explanation is that the One God of the universe (I know you don't believe in Him) inspired Baha'u'llah and revealed Himself through Baha'u'llah.



....or God speaks through these people. Clearly oral traditions have been an important part of the transmission of their teachings, and we all know the potential problems with that.



You're an artist. Your imagination is quite vivid.



Didn't Jesus talk to Moses?



This is the result of 5000+ posts on this thread?



I think @C G Didymus influence is apparent here.



The ironies and contradictions abound.




I agree it would be interesting. Good luck with writing. Its the story of religion and humanity after all.

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I seem to write when I'm not focus on writing, but when I sit in front of my desk with blank paper in front of me, I can't think of a think to write.

I would have to believe in the GOA first before going any further with what I understand of Bahai so far. That, and I can see how people are inspired by god and to a point can speak to others how god speaks to them. If I picked the GOA or Brahma, I'd probably be closer to believing in Brahma. Though, thousands of posts ago Lover did say Brahma (Vishnu and Krishna) are all GOA. So, although false, I guess everyone's entitled to their belief.

I side with the jews with not defining god and speaking his name. In the NT, Jesus says to refer to his Father as I AM. In my personal view, I don't see god speaking through a human but through our experiences and how we relate to ourselves, environment, and other people. Without TLC (both love and Traditions, Language, and Culture), there would be no god.

I think jesus talked to Elijah. I can't remember if the other was Moses.

CG Didymus said:

But that was 150 years ago. I wonder what they say about right now?

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Helps to have a living Guru.

Either that or good observation and insight, lol.

CG Didymus said:

So the Spirit of God reincarnated into different bodies?

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This is very close to what Bahai Scriptures teach, although instead of using the term 'reincarnation', it uses the term 'Manifest'. Because in Bahai View, Spirit of God is not a thing to enter a Persons Body, or exit from the Body. Words cannot describe it really, thus Bahai Scriptures uses an analogy, which is not an exact representation, but it is an analogy as closely as possible to explain it. So, God is Like the Sun, and the Soul of Manifestation of God, is like a Mirror, facing the Sun, and Reflecting the Light and its image. This analogy in Bahai Scriptures is used to say that, in the same way that the Sun does not literally enter the Mirror, but its image is Manifested, similarly, the Spirit of God does not enter the body, but God's Attributes and Will is manifested. Another importance of this Analogy is to understand that, whatever the Manifestation of God says and does, is exactly what God is saying and doing. There is no difference what so ever. So much so that, if the Manifestation says, I am God, He spoke the Truth, because that is what God Himself spoke through Him.