How are these Great Beings explained?

Carlita said:

Hey, can you quote me instead of @Name me? I don't get my @Name alerts.



If he is human, he would need to. Prophets are usually human, though.



I know that's what he says. I'm not saying you don't have a right to believe what's written. Logically (not whats written-writing someone down doesn't prove anything), as a human, he would have to have traveled to know these differing beliefs. It's fine to have dreams. Though, time and again on this thread, followers say that to know the religion, you have to physically be there to practice it.

Logically.

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The knowledge of a Manifestation of God, we believe, is the same as the knowledge of God. It is innate not learned and understands all things. It is not the same as the acquired knowledge of man

Innately, they are All Knowing and know all the mysteries. Nothing is hidden from Them. They do not require experience to learn. They already know the knowledge of all that has been.

Carlita said:

@InvestigateTruth both of you are seeing The Dhamma through GOA Eyes. You can idolize the physical Dhamma, historical buddha, and his one of many promised ones all you want, but that does not change it does not come from god and bahallauh has nothing to do with this.

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Again, The Bahai belief is independent of the Previous Revelations. It solely depends on the Person of Bahaullah, His All-knowing knowledge, infallibility, Spiritual Powers. Off course, as mentioned before, there is a great number of Prophecies, that are fulfilled by Bahaullah, which helps us to recognize Him, as the Promised One of all religions.
But, even if we were discussing the compatibility between Bahai Faith, and Previous Religions, in my view, there is enough evidence, to believe that they are from the same source. We already have shown many of fundamental similarities between them, in this Thread. There is nothing to disprove that they are not from the same source, though it is not easy to believe they are from the same source, and not possible for a person to prove this, to another person, and this can be understood. Let us remember, Bahaullah says, Previous Manifestations each had a different Mission, and a different Revelation related to their Time and Age, and culture,..etc..thus, these Revelations are not exactly the same, though, fundamentally are the Truth. Thus, if some of the teachings of Buddha, is not the same as Bahaullah, is not a proof they are not from the same source. Adding to this, the fact that, for example Buddhism, is divided into many sects, that have different believes, would make it impossible to know, what was the original teachings of Buddha, let alone to imagine, one can disprove Bahaullah's Claim, on the basis of differences between Buddhism and Bahai Faith.

InvestigateTruth said:

Again, The Bahai belief is independent of the Previous Revelations. It solely depends on the Person of Bahaullah, His All-knowing knowledge, infallibility, Spiritual Powers. Off course, as mentioned before, there are enumorous number of Prophecies, that are fulfilled by Bahaullah, which helps us to recognize Him, as the Promised One of all religions.
But, even if we were discussing the compatibility between Bahai Faith, and Previous Religions, in my view, there is enough evidence, to believe that they are from the same source. We already have shown many of fundamental similarities in this Thread. There is nothing to disprove that they are not from the same source, though it is not easy to believe they are from the same source, and this can be understood. Let us remember, Bahaullah says, Previois Manifestations each had a different Mission, and a different Revelation related to their Time and Age, and culture,..etc..thus, these Revelations are not exactly the same, though, fundamentally are the Truth.

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Wait, if it is a progression from one manifestation to the next, wouldn't they all, Bahaullah included, come from the same source (dependant of previous manifestations)?

Since Bahaullah isn't the isn't the last manifestation, wouldn't it be correct to assume he doesn't have "the answer" but who is part of the gods (krishna), prophets (jesus, moses, and zoroaster), and educators (The Buddha) who all, in progression, have the same answer from the same god with the same message?

If there are similarities, why are they not dependant on each other as your peers say they are? (When there is a progression of the same message, by default, they are dependant on each other as child to his mother)

The last part is different than what your peers say. All manifestations point to the same source. Is that true or not?

loverofhumanity said:

The knowledge of a Manifestation of God, we believe, is the same as the knowledge of God. It is innate not learned and understands all things. It is not the same as the acquired knowledge of man

Innately, they are All Knowing and know all the mysteries. Nothing is hidden from Them. They do not require experience to learn. They already know the knowledge of all that has been.

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What would be the difference between them being a manifestation of god and them being god if the former speaks for god and the latter is god?

You know Indian religions are not meant to be monolithic. People are encouraged to think and discuss and even make changes. No topics are barred from this discussion including the existence of God and soul. Even if people have different views, they live together peacefully and happily. The advance of science are accepted. The books of law are written in various ages which reflect the changes in society. What does not change is humane action, which we term as 'dharma', i.e., fulfillment of one's duty and engaging in righteous action. Hinduism is not a static religion, it is dynamic. It should never be compared to Abrahamic religions.

InvestigateTruth said:

Thus, if some of the teachings of Buddha, is not the same as Bahaullah, is not a proof they are not from the same source. Adding to this, the fact that, for example Buddhism, is divided into many sects, that have different believes, would make it impossible to know, what was the original teachings of Buddha, let alone to imagine.

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What is then human brain for? Think what is best for you and act on that, that is what Buddha advised. Budhism does not care for Bahaullah's revelations. Buddha would have rejected all its wild claims as he rejected many Hindu claims. One does not need a God to know that living in peace and friendliness is better than living with war.

If you re looking for the latest manifestations of God, we had three very strong contenders: Bhagawan Rajnish (otherwise known as Osho), Sai baba of Shirdi and Satya Sai baba of Puttaparthy, who came after Bahaullah. All the three performed miracles galore.You cannot refuse them. That will be denying God. So, abandon Bahai and start worshiping them.

Shirdi Sai Baba, Satya Sai Baba, Osho

Need more manifestations? We have many.

Carlita said:

Wait, if it is a progression from one manifestation to the next, wouldn't they all, Bahaullah included, come from the same source (dependant of previous manifestations)?

Since Bahaullah isn't the isn't the last manifestation, wouldn't it be correct to assume he doesn't have "the answer" but who is part of the gods (krishna), prophets (jesus, moses, and zoroaster), and educators (The Buddha) who all, in progression, have the same answer from the same god with the same message?

If there are similarities, why are they not dependant on each other as your peers say they are? (When there is a progression of the same message, by default, they are dependant on each other as child to his mother)

The last part is different than what your peers say. All manifestations point to the same source. Is that true or not?

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I think there is One thing, that again I like to mention. I am not saying you are to believe in it, but, it is needed so, the Bahai View may be understood.

In Bahai View, in Reality there is Only One Manifestation of God. That means, in Reality, Bahaullah, was Muhammad, was Jesus, was Moses, was Buddha, was Krishna...etc.

In the same way, that in Bahai View, there is only One God, who is the One eternal Truth, There is Only One Manifestation of God, with One Revelation. In this View, Quran, Bible, Buddhism Scriptures,..etc, are like different Chapters of One Book, the Book of God. The Author of this Book, is the same Person, who chooses to Manifest Himself in the form of a human, so, He may talk with His creatures. Now, in this view, can we say, they depend on each other? No! Because in Reality there is Only One. How can we say, this One person is dependent on Himself?

InvestigateTruth said:

I think there is One thing, that again I like to mention. I am not saying you are to believe in it, but, it is needed so, the Bahai View may be understood.

In Bahai View, in Reality there is Only One Manifestation of God. That means, in Reality, Bahaullah, was Muhammad, was Jesus, was Moses, was Buddha, was Krishna...etc.

In the same way, that in Bahai View, there is only One God, who is the One eternal Truth, There is Only One Manifestation of God, with One Revelation. In this View, Quran, Bible, Buddhism Scriptures,..etc, are like different Chapters of One Book, the Book of God. The Author of this Book, is the same Person, who chooses to Manifest Himself in the form of a human, so, He may talk with His creatures. Now, in this view, can we say, they depend on each other? No! Because in Reality there is Only One. How can we say, this One person is dependent on Himself?

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This is new. Lover and the rest were saying there were more than one manifestations of god and that all the manifestations point to god rather than are god. @adrian009 defined them as educators. All of you beforehand said they were separate people from different time periods: Many manifestations pointing to one god rather than one god split into many manifestations. (Similar to the trinity) Then some of you said that you respect diversity so that would mean you accept that Krishna is not the God of Abraham. Now you're telling me he is since there can only be one god. Basically, you're calling krishna the god of abraham.

It's not that I don't believe you because I differ in belief. It's I don't believe you because the religions you are talking do not teach what you believe is true. If you are looking for unity among diversity, it is not about your belief but theirs.

loverofhumanity said:

Nothing is hidden from Them.

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What was Baha'u'llah's wisdom on computers? Please quote from his writings. What did he think of Donald Trump? Please quote from his writings.

InvestigateTruth said:

I think there is One thing, that again I like to mention. I am not saying you are to believe in it, but, it is needed so, the Bahai View may be understood.

In Bahai View, in Reality there is Only One Manifestation of God. That means, in Reality, Bahaullah, was Muhammad, was Jesus, was Moses, was Buddha, was Krishna...etc.

In the same way, that in Bahai View, there is only One God, who is the One eternal Truth, There is Only One Manifestation of God, with One Revelation. In this View, Quran, Bible, Buddhism Scriptures,..etc, are like different Chapters of One Book, the Book of God. The Author of this Book, is the same Person, who chooses to Manifest Himself in the form of a human, so, He may talk with His creatures. Now, in this view, can we say, they depend on each other? No! Because in Reality there is Only One. How can we say, this One person is dependent on Himself?

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Thank you IT, for putting 'in Baha'i' view' in front of it all, instead of just presenting this as fact. It's far less offensive to others this way.

Carlita said:

. All of you beforehand said they were separate people from different time periods: Many manifestations pointing to one god rather than one god split into many manifestations. ...
.

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Actually the Bahai interpretation is not one god, split into many Manifestations....
In Bahai View, the persons known as Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Krishna..etc have each a human station and a Spiritual Station. Their human individuality is different from each other. So, the individuality of Muhammad was different than Moses. But their Spiritual Reality is One and the same, that is the Reality of God, who Manifested Himself in Them. It is like One Person, the God, Manifests Himself in form of a new individual. Thus, it is not like one god split into many. It is One God, who Manifests Himself again and again in each Age, whenever He wishes to


.

It's not that I don't believe you because I differ in belief. It's I don't believe you because the religions you are talking do not teach what you believe is true. If you are looking for unity among diversity, it is not about your belief but theirs.

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In my view, whenever and where ever God manifested Himself, He said He comes again and again. Though, in my view, when God manifested Himself in different Ages, He presented Himself according to the capacity of People. Thus, for example, in case of Moses or Muhammad He presented Himself as a Prophet, though in case of Krishna or Jesus, He presented Himself as God, or a Manifestation of God... in case of Bahaullah, He said He was the One who had appeared from Age to Age, in form of different humans, so He may talk with His creatures.

InvestigateTruth said:

In Bahai View, the persons known as Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Krishna..etc have each a human station and a Spiritual Station. Their human individuality is different from each other. So, the individuality of Muhammad was different than Moses. But their Spiritual Reality is One and the same, that is the Reality of God, who Manifested Himself in Them. It is like One Person, the God, Manifests Himself in form of a new individual. Thus, it is not like one god split into many. It is One God, who Manifests Himself again and again in each Age, whenever He wishes to

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Like jesus in the trinity?

InvestigateTruth said:

In my view, whenever and where ever God manifested Himself, He said He comes again and again. Though, in my view, when God manifested Himself in different Ages, He presented Himself according to the capacity of People. Thus, for example, in case of Moses or Muhammad He presented Himself as a Prophet, though in case of Krishna or Jesus, He presented Himself as God, or a Manifestation of God... in case of Bahaullah, He said He was the One who had appeared from Age to Age, in form of different humans, so He may talk with His creatures.

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That sounds, honestly, creepy. God is god and doesn't need to be a manif or human for us to learn about god. Hinduism, I get because Krishna is god and so is Vishnu. So, understanding Brahma through his incarnations is the same as understanding Brahma directly.

Once you make god of abraham (who is not Brahma therefore not Vishnu and therefore not Krishna) a human, he is no longer god by definition.

That is why it makes more sense when @loverofhumanity said the manif point to god. Though, I disagree that Krishna, The Buddha, and Zoroaster, and Maitreya pointed to the GOA. This is not only based on what I practiced but what they teach.

If we are bringing unity, it is not about you. It's not "we Bahai" It's we, as a humanity, believe...

If you can't complete that sentence without conflict of beliefs, then it is a Bahai belief. Nothing wrong with that.

Carlita said:

If we are bringing unity, it is not about you. It's not "we Bahai" It's we, as a humanity, believe...

If you can't complete that sentence without conflict of beliefs, then it is a Bahai belief. Nothing wrong with that.

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Its we, as a Humaity, believe we are One people under One God.

If that conflicts with any belief, then Predudices are still being practiced by that belief.

Regards Tony.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Its we, as a Humaity, believe we are One people under One God.

If that conflicts with any belief, then Predudices are still being practiced by that belief.

Regards Tony.

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Actually, no. If we have mutual respect among people who believe in different gods, no god, or different definition of the god of abraham (GOA), then we are on our way to peace.

Once you set up peace upon a god, that brings wars and prejudice because it is limiting those who don't believe in that foundation into one set system. Yes, you can say you respect diversity for eternity; but, without the "we humanity" you only do but to a point. That is okay.

Prejudices form also when you try to make people believe in one thing (regardless if you're waiting for them to or by force). Bahai isn't the only one who thinks this way. It's a GOA mindset. Everyone else admits it.

I don't understand how Bahai can't see that about themselves. Just because they say "I agree" doesn't mean they (GOA believers-bahai included) do. It's just a word but your beliefs say otherwise. Nothing wrong with that.

Carlita said:

Actually, no. If we have mutual respect among people who believe in different gods, no god, or different definition of the god of abraham (GOA), then we are on our way to peace.

Once you set up peace upon a god, that brings wars and prejudice because it is limiting those who don't believe in that foundation into one set system. Yes, you can say you respect diversity for eternity; but, without the "we humanity" you only do but to a point. That is okay.

Prejudices form also when you try to make people believe in one thing (regardless if you're waiting for them to or by force). Bahai isn't the only one who thinks this way. It's a GOA mindset. Everyone else admits it.

I don't understand how Bahai can't see that about themselves. Just because they say "I agree" doesn't mean they (GOA believers-bahai included) do. It's just a word but your beliefs say otherwise. Nothing wrong with that.

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This Passage from Baha'u'llah explains the stance to me and may explain it to you as to the view a Baha'i can take;

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded. (“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, p. 286)

Consider the whole world groans for a Unity of Purpose and it can only be found in implementing the Counsels given by God.

Regards Tony

I'm assuming you disagree with me.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded. (“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, p. 286)

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This doesn't address referring to your view as "we humanity" rather than "We Bahai." Once you say We-Bahai, it sets you apart from humanity because you only see similarities under one foundation rather than differences. If you saw differences, We-Bahai would be appropriate. Since you don't, logically, it is not.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Consider the whole world groans for a Unity of Purpose and it can only be found in implementing the Counsels given by God.

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I know what you believe. If you are talking about unity among all people, it has to be agreed with all people not just people who believe in god.

It's alright to say unity is founded on god. It's not alright to implement this whether by speech or deed because how you define god ignores Hinduis who do not view god as you do and Buddhists who do not believe in god.

Edit You either need to own your belief without calling it Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity (etc) or find mutual agreement with the other party without putting their prophets in your faith unless they are interpreted correctly from their point of view not yours. It isn't about you.

adrian009 said:

First, there is no Baha'i God. It is applying an outdated Christian concept to the Baha'i Revelation, but Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God, not to be confused with God Himself. If we understand that God has manifested Himself through the great beings as outlined in the OP then God has done an excellent job of getting His message across.

If we consider that the major religions have superseded the primitive religions, then great progress has been made.

In regards to primitive religions we need to consider these on a case by case basis. The religion of the indigenous Maori people has a hierarchy of Gods with a supreme father God

Family tree of the Māori gods - Wikipedia

Shinto the indigenous religion of the Japanese people also has a supreme sun God Amaterasu.

Amaterasu - Wikipedia

List of Japanese deities - Wikipedia

These are the two indigenous religions I am most familiar with. They have similarities and appear to set the scene for more developed systems of belief.

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Where is the Baha'i Faith in the pie chart?

And which manifestation taught these people all these multiple gods? That is not doing a good job at teaching that there is only one God. That is why I'm thinking it is more likely these people made up their own religion by what they observed in nature.

And how do they usually progress to a more sophisticated belief system? I think most of the time they got conquered and the new religion was forced on them. Is that part of progressive revelation, or do you have a different take on it?

Carlita said:

Like jesus in the trinity?

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The Bible talks about, Jesus being the Son, Holy Spirit, and the Father.
Bahais also believe in these Three.
Jesus said, He and the Father are One. The Father is in the Son. In Bahai view, it means God, manifested Himself in Jesus.
In the Time of Manifestations before or after Jesus, the same God, Manifested Himself again and again. This is why Jesus said, before Abraham I am. It was God who was saying this.
Buddha said before and after Him, there were Buddhas. This is because the same Reality and Image Manifests in All of them. Thus they are the same Buddha.

That sounds, honestly, creepy. God is god and doesn't need to be a manif or human for us to learn about god. Hinduism, I get because Krishna is god and so is Vishnu. So, understanding Brahma through his incarnations is the same as understanding Brahma directly.

Once you make god of abraham (who is not Brahma therefore not Vishnu and therefore not Krishna) a human, he is no longer god by definition.

That is why it makes more sense when @loverofhumanity said the manif point to god. Though, I disagree that Krishna, The Buddha, and Zoroaster, and Maitreya pointed to the GOA. This is not only based on what I practiced but what they teach.

If we are bringing unity, it is not about you. It's not "we Bahai" It's we, as a humanity, believe...

If you can't complete that sentence without conflict of beliefs, then it is a Bahai belief. Nothing wrong with that.

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In Bahai View, God is invisible, and unknowable directly, thus, we cannot see Him, or hear His Words. Therefore He chooses to Manifests Himself in form of human, so, He can talk with us in our own languages, sit with us, eat with us, socialize with us, so, we can get to know Him.

@loverofhumanity, is correct saying that the Manifestations point to God. But that God They pointed to, was within Themselves. There was no other God. God does not have a physical location. It is not like He is somewhere. But the Manifestations have an individuality and a Holy Reality. Their Holy Reality is Manifestation of God. Their individuality, as a human, points to the Holy Reality of God, who Manifested Himself within Them. When Bahaullah was in Prison, He said, there is no God except Me, the Prisoner, the One.
Some people said Bahaullah claimed to be God. Bahaullah wrote that is a false accusation. Because the individuality of Bahaullah is not God. It is false to say, Bahaullah is the incarnation of God. God does not change, He does not change Himself to a visible, physical body of Human. But without a change, He manifested Himself in Bahaullah.

adrian009 said:

There are many reasons why people remain within the religion of their ancestors rather than change faith. Spirituality maybe one reason amidst others. I would be careful about judging the spirituality of someone because of their allegiance to an allegedly newer religion. For example, Judas Iscariot spent a great deal of time in the company of Jesus but he would hardly be considered spiritual.



Many Muslims did recognise the Bab as being the return of the twelfth Imam as recorded in the Hadith. Thousands were put the death for their efforts.

Mahdi - Wikipedia

Islam has many similar beliefs to the Baha'i Faith in regards to God and the afterlife.

https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/concept-of-god-in-islam/

Islamic view of death - Wikipedia

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From your link on Islam:

...Islam teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross but was instead raised up to the heavens by God."

So, Christians believe Jesus is part of a triune God, and was raised from the dead, and ascended to heaven. Islam says that he never died but was raised up to the heavens.

What again do the Baha'is say? Wasn't it something about Jesus being dead and buried and that ascending into the sky is not scientific, so it could not have happened? Add to that the thing about the NT really meant the "body of believers" came to life.

So what's up with Muhammad? Why didn't he tell the truth about Jesus like Baha'u'llah did?

And you say the Bab was return of the twelfth Imam as recorded in the Hadith? Are the Hadith from the manifestation or traditions? Do the Sunni's agree with you? If not, why are the things believed by the Shia the truth and not the Sunni's?

Aupmanyav said:

...I do not think Maitreya is something that Buddha taught. "The religious belief of Maitreya apparently developed around the same time as that of Amitabha, as early as the 3rd century CE" - Wikipedia-Maitreya). Buddha said every one has the potentiality for enlightenment and become a Buddha.

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Well that throws another monkey wrench into the Baha'i word salad mix. So, I believe they make the Bab the Maitreya and the 12th Imanm and Elijah and no doubt a few others. Then, they tie in Baha'u'llah because two manifestations were promised.

But they take added teachings, not just the supposed words of the "manifestation" but these added teachings are essentially teachings of men. But they also say that the original teachings of the "manifestation" have been lost because of added traditions, or teachings of men? So, what are they saying now? That some traditions, like the ones that prophecy the Bab and Baha'u'llah, are true? And all others that don't agree with Baha'i teachings are false? Wow, lots of word salad.

InvestigateTruth said:

The Bible talks about, Jesus being the Son, Holy Spirit, and the Father.
Bahais also believe in these Three.
Jesus said, He and the Father are One. The Father is in the Son. In Bahai view, it means God, manifested Himself in Jesus.
In the Time of Manifestations before or after Jesus, the same God, Manifested Himself again and again. This is why Jesus said, before Abraham I am. It was God who was saying this.
Buddha said before and after Him, there were Buddhas. This is because the same Reality and Image Manifests in All of them. Thus they are the same Buddha.

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So it would be like the trinity? I can't see the difference.

The Buddha is not part of the same reality has the manifestations of god. That's a fact regardless of who believes otherwise.

InvestigateTruth said:

In Bahai View, God is invisible, and unknowable directly, thus, we cannot see Him, or hear His Words. Therefore He chooses to Manifests Himself in form of human, so, He can talk with us in our own languages, sit with us, eat with us, socialize with us, so, we can get to know Him.

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That sounds like god being in jesus christ and believers think jesus is god because he speaks for god. Is your belief the latter?

InvestigateTruth said:

Some people said Bahaullah claimed to be God. Bahaullah wrote that is a false accusation. Because the individuality of Bahaullah is not God. It is false to say, Bahaullah is the incarnation of God. God does not change, He does not change Himself to a visible, physical body of Human. But without a change, He manifested Himself in Bahaullah.

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What is the individuality of Bahaullah?

If Krishna is a manifestation of god then it would make sense that bahaullah is a manifestation of god.

However, Krishna isn't a manifestation of god. He is god. Just not the god of abraham. So there is a problem right there. Regardless of what you believe, it isn't Hinduism.