seeking4truth
Active Member
I often hear on BBC radio that Jews say that God gave the land of Israel to them. What are the references for this? Was the gift unconditional?
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Land of Israel
- Thread starter seeking4truth
- Start date
It is on the condition that they don't pollute the land with immorality like the people in it before them. So it wouldn't 'vomit them out'.
For the people of the land who preceded you did all of these abominations and the land became defiled.
And let the land not vomit you out for having defiled it, as it vomited out the nation that preceded you.
Leviticus 18:27-28
For the people of the land who preceded you did all of these abominations and the land became defiled.
And let the land not vomit you out for having defiled it, as it vomited out the nation that preceded you.
Leviticus 18:27-28
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It's in scripture. The Book of Exodus.
Tom
seeking4truth
Active Member
As Jews were removed from the land after the time of Jesus does this mean that they didn't keep this condition?
Does it follow that those who occupied the land later did? Does the condition still apply - to any who occupy that land?
Does it follow that those who occupied the land later did? Does the condition still apply - to any who occupy that land?
I'm not informed enough to answer your first question.
As for your second: not necessarily and no, this only applies to Jews as far as I know.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Sorry for not being able to oppose the biggest empire the Mediterranean has ever seen?
*sigh*
Can't be since we won apparently.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Gen. 12:7-8, 13:14-15, 15:18-21, 17:8, 28:13-14, Ex. 32:31, Deut. 34:1-4 and Eze. 47:13-21.
There doesn't seem to be any conditions attached to the promise of the inheritance of the land. What there is, is an explanation about how we must behave in the land in Lev. 18:28. Notice that this verse is written as though its describing the nature of the land, not as a clause in a deal. So for instance, during the First Temple period, when we were in transgression of Lev. 18:28, we were exiled. That didn't seem to void the original promise, since after the exile, we were sent back to the same land again.
The Promised Land was gifted to Abraham's descendants. Taken into exile by the Babylonians for their failure to obey their God, after 70 years God reinstated only "a remnant" of Jews back to their homeland.
"The captivity put an end to the separation of Judah and Israel. The conquerors made no distinction according to tribal origins when deporting the exiles. “The sons of Israel and the sons of Judah are being oppressed together,” Jehovah observed. (Jer 50:33) When the first contingent returned in 537 B.C.E., representatives of all the tribes of Israel were among them. Later, at the completion of the temple rebuilding, a sacrifice of 12 male goats was made, “according to the number of the tribes of Israel.” (Ezra 6:16, 17) Such reunification after the captivity was indicated in prophecy. For example, Jehovah promised to “bring Israel back.” (Jer 50:19) Furthermore, Jehovah said: “I will bring back the captives of Judah and the captives of Israel, and I will build them just as at the start.” (Jer 33:7) Ezekiel’s illustration of the two sticks that were made one (37:15-28) indicated that the two kingdoms would again become one nation. Isaiah foretold that Jesus Christ would become a stumbling stone “to both the houses of Israel,” hardly meaning that Jesus, or the 12 whom he sent out during his third tour of Galilee, would have to visit settlements in far-off Media in order to preach to descendants of Israelites from the northern kingdom. (Isa 8:14; Matt 10:5, 6; 1Peter 2:8) The prophetess Anna, in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus’ birth, was of the tribe of Asher, which tribe was once numbered with the northern kingdom.—Luke 2:36.
Not all the Jews returned to Jerusalem with Zerubbabel, only “a mere remnant.” (Isa 10:21, 22) Among those returning, there were very few who had seen the original temple. Old age prevented many from risking the hardships of the trip. Others who from a physical point of view could have made the trip chose to remain behind. Many, no doubt, had gained a little material success over the years and were satisfied to remain where they were. If the rebuilding of Jehovah’s temple did not occupy the first place in their lives, they would not be inclined to make the hazardous trip, with an uncertain future awaiting them. And, of course, those who had proved apostate had no incentive to go back.
This means that as a people, part of the Jews remained scattered and came to be known as the Di·a·spo·raʹ, or “Dispersion.” In the fifth century B.C.E. communities of Jews were found throughout the 127 jurisdictional districts of the Persian Empire. (Esther 1:1; 3:8) Even certain descendants of the exiles still found positions high in government office: for example, Mordecai and Esther under the Persian king Ahasuerus (Xerxes I), and Nehemiah as royal cupbearer to Artaxerxes Longimanus. (Es 9:29-31; 10:2, 3; Ne 1:11) Ezra, when compiling Chronicles, wrote that many of those dispersed in various eastern cities “continue until this day” (c. 460 B.C.E.). (1Chron 5:26) With the rise of the Grecian Empire, Jews were brought by Alexander the Great to his new Egyptian city of Alexandria, where they learned to speak Greek. It was there that the translating of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek to produce the Septuagint was begun in the third century B.C.E. The Syro-Egyptian wars brought about the transferal of many Jews into Asia Minor and into Egypt respectively. Pompey, upon conquering Jerusalem in 63 B.C.E., took Jews to Rome as slaves.
The great dispersion of Jews throughout the Roman Empire was a factor contributing to the rapid spread of Christianity. Jesus Christ limited his own preaching to the soil of Israel, but he commanded his followers to reach out and spread their ministry “to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)" (Insight Volume 1)
Israel's covenant with God was conditional from the beginning.....He said to them....
Exodus 19:5-6 (ESV):
"Now therefore, IF you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation...’"
Only IF they obeyed their God and kept his covenant, would he accept them as his own "treasured possession". History shows that they didn't....time and again.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Using that same exact standard, do you think Christians did?
Oh, for heaven's sake people! Read a little actual history -- not the self-serving, mostly mythical/fictional, later justifications that you find in the Bible. Is it so hard to pick up just one more book and read it? Or is the Bible the only source for everything (in which case, heaven help you when you suffer from one of the thousands of diseases that modern book-medicine can help you with, but the Bible can't.)
NO! That is the whole point of the Bible's record. It was prophesied that Christianity too would follow the same path of disobedience that Judaism did. Christendom is a mirror image of Judaism. They both worship a god with no name. (Exodus 3:14-15; Acts 15:14) Both follow man-made traditions that God never sanctioned.
The foretold "apostasy" in Christianity was to come and eventually separate people into two distinct groups, but only after the completion of the Christian scriptures at the end of the first century. From the second century onward we see a downward spiral of corrupt men taking over the church and gaining enormous power...coming to have what the apostle John recorded in Revelation 17:15-18 as "a kingdom over the kings of the earth." Power corrupts and this power was no different. Murder, torture and lawlessness were all seen in "the church" that wielded tyrannical power over the "Christian" world for 1500 years. Christ was never part of that. (Matthew 7:21-23) These workers of lawlessness were never recognized by him as his disciples.
Only in the "time of the end" would God separate a people out from amongst the "weeds" and give them increased knowledge and understanding. (Daniel 12:9-10)
God's promise to Abraham will finally be fulfilled when people of all nations will come and worship YHWH as his obedient children. (Genesis 22:18; Isaiah 2:2-4) We will recognize them by the fact that they refuse to "learn war anymore".
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Then there's two very logical problems with your approach on this. If God revoked the Abrahamic Covenant with Jews because they didn't follow the Law closely enough, and now you admit that Christians also didn't follow what Jesus taught, why do you think that Christians supposedly still deserve their covenant?
Secondly, if God supposedly abandon us because we didn't follow the Law closely enough, then why would He then negate that very same Law as if it really wasn't that important to Him to begin with? Was He just joking around?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And do you honestly believe that the apostles and others in the pre-Constantine church were perfect? Should we review what the apostles themselves did?
And are you claiming that all of your JW's are "obedient children"? I know better because I've lived next to two JW families.
Can I ask you why you think God chose Abraham to make his covenant with in the first place, metis?
Why did Abraham's descendants become a 'special' nation to God at all? Was it because they were better than other people of other nations? Did their course of action over many centuries prove that they could keep God's laws?
What was the purpose of the 'Abrahamic' covenant and how did it fit in with God's purpose stated in Eden? (Genesis 1:28 Genesis 22:15-18)
Why did Jesus come only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? Why did God consider them "lost"? And what was the purpose in separating out followers of Christ from the mainstream Jewish sects?
This is what Paul wrote to the Galatians....speaking about Judaism because of the Pharisees' rigid legalistic interpretation of the Law.....
Galatians 3:23-25:
"Now before the time for this trusting faithfulness came, we were imprisoned in subjection to the system which results from perverting the Torah into legalism, kept under guard until this yet-to-come trusting faithfulness would be revealed. 24 Accordingly, the Torah functioned as a custodian until the Messiah came, so that we might be declared righteous on the ground of trusting and being faithful. 25 But now that the time for this trusting faithfulness has come, we are no longer under a custodian." (CJB)
The "custodian" had completed its purpose by leading "faithful" ones to trust in Jesus as Messiah.
The Law was not abandoned, but "completed" in Christ....as he said...
Matthew 5:17:
“Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete."
Do you have a big picture where everything fits in, metis? Do you know why Messiah was to come and why the Jews have yet to see him?
Perfection can only be achieved by perfect beings....none of us are perfect....yet. The first humans were at first, and I believe the Bible teaches that all will return to the days when humans lived in paradise, untouched by evil. It was after all, God's first purpose.
The apostles were as flawed as we all are. Their imperfections were revealed to us as an example. We can all learn from the mistakes of others. God wants us to.
Please don't judge our entire brotherhood on the basis of two families. Just imagine if I have Jewish neighbors who do not represent Judaism well....can I judge all by the conduct of these few? Is that realistic?
Imperfection allows no one to perfectly represent the Father by imitating his son without fault....but at least we can try. In the large areas, we are not drug addicts or rapists or murderers. We won't steal from you or harm you in any way. As a collective, we may not measure up to any perfect standard just like the Israelites of old, but if we are trying our best, God knows. He also knows when we are making excuses. Wearing a label does't make anyone an acceptable servant of the true God. (Matthew 7:21-23) We have to have the works to back up our faith. (James 2:26)
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I guess you'd have to ask God about that. In Judaism, the general opinion is that we chose God as being the One and only, and He responded back.
The issue of the "Messiah" really ain't that simple.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
You are avoiding my questions by throwing the above as some sort of bone.
I'm not, but again you simply are avoiding responding to my questions as to why you have this double-standard in regards to God's supposed response to Jews and Christians dealing with the observance of the Law.
On top of that, your position in regards to God, the Law, and Christianity simply doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. Either the Law was important or it wasn't, and all you are doing is the theological "splits". Why would God give us the Law (all 613 of them), punish us if we didn't keep them close enough, and then turn around and supposedly have it that most of the Law isn't really necessary to follow after all?
Do the JW's follow the entire Law? Obviously not. Since you claim that this is why God supposedly abandoned the Jews, they why do you somehow get a free pass on this?
Ciao.
S.T.Ranger
Member
Actually, those who are born again are in fact perfect:
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Understanding what "perfection" means is the hard part, though, not so hard, one must simply keep this statement in context of both the Chapter it is found in as well as the larger body of the Book of Hebrews.
This translation is questionable.
Galatians 3:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The Covenant of Law is what is in view, whereas this translation makes one consider that the Pentateuch itself is in view. The Covenant of Law was given due to transgression, and it was only meant to be temporary, until Christ should come.
The "perfection" above has a context that focuses on one of the Promises of God in the Old Testament, Eternal Remission of sins:
Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
So while we might not be perfect in regards to progressive sanctification, we are in fact made complete in Christ, and because we are born again, which is the result of being brought into Eternal Union with God, we are able to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments:
Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
God bless.
Is that what Judaism teaches metis? Guesswork? What do the Hebrew scriptures tell us about Abraham that explains exactly why God chose him?
Please read Genesis 22:9-18. There you will find the reason why God chose Abraham as the one through whom the blessing to all the nations would come.
Here is verses 15-18 from The Complete Jewish Bible.....
"The angel of Adonai called to Avraham a second time out of heaven. 16 He said, “I have sworn by myself — says Adonai — that because you have done this, because you haven’t withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will most certainly bless you; and I will most certainly increase your descendants to as many as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the cities of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed — because you obeyed my order.”
Do we understand the basis upon which Abraham obeyed his God even though he was asked to do something none of us could even contemplate? Do we appreciate the role models here? God is Abraham in this scenario, illustratively. He did not hesitate in sacrificing his only son, who pictured Jesus the Christ. The willingness of the son to become that sacrifice was also illustrative.
Hebrews 11:17-19 explains more about that event....
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way."
This is what real faith is.....Do you not see it? The basis upon which Abraham exercised his faith was the assured reality of the resurrection hope. This is also the basis upon which Yahweh offered up his only son.....the reality of the resurrection. God's ability to reverse death and to eliminate the causes of all pain and suffering is spoken about in many prophesies. (Isaiah 25:8)
Oh, but it's not that complicated. It is beautiful in its simplicity actually. What was Messiah's appearance going to accomplish? Did Jesus fulfill the Messianic prophesies? Has anyone to date fulfilled more of them?
If we understand the mechanics of the "ransom" sacrifice of the Christ, we can see clearly how Jesus was the promised Messiah. How is Christ's sacrifice "a ransom for many"? (Matthew 20:28)
You avoided addressing most of my posts. The imperfections of men never stopped God from using them to further his purpose. The only perfect men who have ever lived are Adam and Jesus. If Jesus put up with the imperfections of his apostles, we should also put up with the imperfections of one another. God doesn't demand perfection because he knows we can't deliver it in a sinful condition. That condition was not our fault......which is why Jesus came to rescue us out of that cycle.
He does however expect us to do our best to keep his laws.
What double standard are you talking about? The entire Law was based on just two, according to Jesus.
The only parts of the Law that no longer apply to Gentiles are the ceremonial ones. "The Law" was "fulfilled" in Christ, not destroyed....so the only two laws that all Christians are to abide by now, are stated by Jesus himself....
Matthew 22:34-40:
34 When the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they came together. 35 And one of them, an expert in the law, asked a question to test Him: 36 “Teacher, which command in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and most important command. 39 The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands.”
The 'Kingly Law' or 'The Law of Love' means that all of God's laws are actually based on 'love of God and neighbor'. You cannot transgress any one of the Mosaic Laws without transgressing one or both of those two commands. Gentiles were to make up the vast majority of Christ's followers as it was foretold that only a "remnant" out of Israel would be saved. (Romans 9:27) Just as the majority of Jews were talked out of following Jesus, because of the propaganda spread by the religious leaders of the day, so the majority of mankind will be talked out of belief in God and his Christ in this "time of the end". (Matthew 7:13-14) "Few" are actually on the right path....because its not an easy walk.
God gave his Law only to Israel.....no one else.
If "the Torah functioned as a custodian until the Messiah came, so that we might be declared righteous on the ground of trusting and being faithful." then the Law accomplished all that it was sent to do. The principles upon which the Law was based still apply.
"God is Love" so the Law is a reflection of God's love for his people and a yardstick by which we keep our conduct in check.
There are no free passes. God is a reader of hearts, not performances. The willingness to perform the demands of the Law was a test for all Israelites. It revealed what was in their hearts.
e.g. the necessity to sacrifice the very best for your offering to God.
"...When any one of the house of Israel or of the sojourners in Israel presents a burnt offering as his offering, for any of their vows or freewill offerings that they offer to the Lord, 19 if it is to be accepted for you it shall be a male without blemish, of the bulls or the sheep or the goats."
"But if it has any blemish, if it is lame or blind or has any serious blemish whatever, you shall not sacrifice it to the Lord your God."
Yet at times Israel became slack in their duties towards their God and revealed where their hearts were by the quality of their sacrifices.
"When you offer blind animals in sacrifice, is that not evil? And when you offer those that are lame or sick, is that not evil? Present that to your governor; will he accept you or show you favor? says the Lord of hosts." (Leviticus 22:19; Deuteronomy 15:21; Malachi 1:8 ESV)
Imagine offering a gift to your head of state and giving him something broken, filthy or defective?
We are all under the same scrutiny. What we offer to God has to be our best....and that is true no matter what label we wear.
Since the Bible says that there are only two categories of people in this world...we are in either one or the other. WE choose which by the way we live and by how closely we follow God's standards and do his will before our own.
The big picture is logical as I see it. No one is excluded unless they exclude themselves, being deceived by their own heart.
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