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How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
What about the vision quests and dancing after taking some magical herb and going into trances? Back in the 60's I thought I saw God. But then when the mushrooms wore off, I'm not so sure.

What is it that was said about the 60s? If you can remember it, you probably weren't part of it. Your experience is a reminder that we can all have epiphanies and mystical experiences to some extent. That is an important aspect of the Baha'i Faith, to have a better developed consciousness of God in our lives. That experience comes in many varied ways. For Baha'is it is through prayer, meditation, and living the life.

But about being inspired by God, I don't think so, because they had many gods and like the Aztecs, many had human sacrificing. I know you have to think so, because Baha'u'llah said so. But then you have to explain why they had those beliefs of many gods that required sacrifices.

Mozart had musical epiphanies that could be considered inspired from the spiritual realm of God. Just because it wasn't about the essential nature of God, doesn't mean to say it wasn't from the heavenly realm.

All early belief systems seem to begin with spirits tied in with the natural world and develop from there. Just because we are aware of more advanced belief systems doesn't negate God's influence on less developed cultures. I'm wondering if you are limiting God's influence and powers?

You know I was in New Mexico at a Rain Dance ceremony. And it rained. Later I found out it rains almost every afternoon in the summer. So you really think a manifestation came to each tribe and brought them dances and rituals to bring rain or to defeat an enemy or for a successful hunt?

That's why we need both science and religion as a foundation to human knowledge. One without the other leads to materialism or superstition.

But I know you do have stories of tribal people that were expecting Baha'is, so let's hear 'em. Oh, I do know a little about the Hopi prophecies. But, as I recall, they came from tribal leaders, not manifestations.

I'd be interested to hear what you know of the prophecies of the Hopi people. T W Ratana was the prophet of the Maori Ratana Church and evidently predicted a universal religious teacher and one of the apostles of his church became a Baha'i. The Baha'i who introduced these Maori of Ratana lineage was eventually murdered as a result of his teaching efforts becoming New Zealand's first Baha'i Martyr. We now have annual race unity speeches held throughout the country sponsored by the New Zealand police force and Baha'is supported by the Hedi Moani charitable trust.

T. W. Ratana - Wikipedia

Insanity finding in Moani murder trial - National - NZ Herald News
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I think there is a range of wisdom within the wise souls who have chosen to come to this planet. But it's on some range,and very diverse. I don't get the judgemental categorisation of them. Capitalising Manifestation, lesser prophet, all that. It's too classist, or casteist, for lack of a better word. Some modern spiritualists do this too ... he's a level 3, this philosophy is a level 5, etc. We Hindus see it as a continuum of soul maturity, each individual soul exactly where he should be. None different than any other at the deepest core.

On the whole I agree with you. We all have capacity for love, wisdom, and to know God and it is not for us to be judging each other as to who is greatest or least. However there are people that distinguish themselves by virtue of their extraordinary capacity. Is it wrong to recognise that? Should be not admire the achievements of Beethoven, Michaelangelo, Ghandi or Nelson Mandela?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That's laughable actually. Again ... saying you understand something and understanding them are often two different things. You have proven time and again that you simply don't understand our points.

People cannot understand a paradigm from outside the paradigm. I remember one time talking to a male with a huge ego. When I said. "You can't possibly understand what its like to be a woman and have a baby,' he responded, "Oh but I do understand that."

So we have different understandings of the term 'understanding'. Do you understand that? Or perhaps you, like my ego-enhanced acquaintance. also understand what it's like to be a woman and have a baby?

If
That's laughable actually. Again ... saying you understand something and understanding them are often two different things. You have proven time and again that you simply don't understand our points.

People cannot understand a paradigm from outside the paradigm. I remember one time talking to a male with a huge ego. When I said. "You can't possibly understand what its like to be a woman and have a baby,' he responded, "Oh but I do understand that."

So we have different understandings of the term 'understanding'. Do you understand that? Or perhaps you, like my ego-enhanced acquaintance. also understand what it's like to be a woman and have a baby?

I think it's the way we interpret what we each write. I think we are just interpreting each other differently.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don't remember these things as any of your points. I was speaking of not believing anything blindly so I have no idea what past life has to do with this.

One of my main points has always been differing paradigms, and that Hinduism is more an experiential religion, not a book or prophet religion. So one can't understand Hinduism without those experiences. (and hundreds more) Experience create the mind.

Remembering past lives and Bathing in the Darshan of He who has one tusk.

So once again, you proved to me that you simply didn't understand that essential difference.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Why would you assume that I do not know the Traditions were passed down?

Tell me how you know the passed down Tradition has any comparison to the Original Guidance? I offered they are subject to Chinese Whispers if the original Message is not recorded and kept pure from day 1.

Regards Tony

I assumed you didn't know because of your statement that there are no oral traditions left. Based on that, it seems a fair assumption.

I have no idea what Chinese Whispers is. I'm a Hindu. Or it a reference to Buddhism perhaps? Taoism?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
On the whole I agree with you. We all have capacity for love, wisdom, and to know God and it is not for us to be judging each other as to who is greatest or least. However there are people that distinguish themselves by virtue of their extraordinary capacity. Is it wrong to recognise that? Should be not admire the achievements of Beethoven, Michaelangelo, Ghandi or Nelson Mandela?

Most likely they are later on the continuum, and have received notice due to the availability of news. Yes, people all have different skills. Some artists may well have had very poor social skills, we don't know. Doesn't make them 'better' people.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
If


I think it's the way we interpret what we each write. I think we are just interpreting each other differently.
Yes we are. That is partially my point. We interpret differently because we live in different paradigms. That differing paradigm affects our entire lives. Not only do you see through Baha'i' eyes, and me through Hindu eyes, but we also read and interpret through those eyes, respectively.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
One of my main points has always been differing paradigms, and that Hinduism is more an experiential religion, not a book or prophet religion. So one can't understand Hinduism without those experiences. (and hundreds more) Experience create the mind.

Remembering past lives and Bathing in the Darshan of He who has one tusk.

So once again, you proved to me that you simply didn't understand that essential difference.

Yes of course I understand the difference. I wasn't brought up a Hindu. I'm fully aware of that so I don't have the Hindu experience. And I have always accepted that.

When I say we have a common foundation I primarily mean ethics and morality, the golden rule, nothing else, as I could not possibly know what it is like to be a Hindu as I wasn't raised as one.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yes we are. That is partially my point. We interpret differently because we live in different paradigms. That differing paradigm affects our entire lives. Not only do you see through Baha'i' eyes, and me through Hindu eyes, but we also read and interpret through those eyes, respectively.

Yes I agree fully with you.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
When I say we have a common foundation I primarily mean ethics and morality, the golden rule, nothing else, as I could not possibly know what it is like to be a Hindu as I wasn't raised as one.

I can agree to that. Different concepts of God, reincarnation, no need for books and prophet in Hinduism (the version I follow) so many fundamental differences.

So yes, other than some moral principles that most religions share, we are incredibly different.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
If you study the Writings of Baha'u'llah, you will find all the concepts of all religions mentioned somewhere, perhaps in differing terminology, but explained fully.

Simply not true, as you yourself have admitted in the immediate posts above. Please quote where Baha'u'llah understands reincarnation without reinterpretation, of what it's like to bathe in the darshan of the one who has one tusk. You keep changing your mind on this stuff.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Been a busy week at work so picking up on this thread where we left off.

An important distinction here is that as a Baha'i I have recognised that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. So the logical step is to become a Baha'i. I do not see that as moving away from God, but moving closer to Him as He would want me to follow the One He promised would come. So God, Jesus, and the Bible become more, not less relevant. You may disagree but it is what it is. There is a parallel with the Jews who became Christians. I think this is different from one who has been a Catholic but is no longer practising. I'm still practicing, but my practice as changed.

Eh. That's the only thing I disagree with, the connection between Bahaullah and christianity (and the other revealed religions) not your goals and your spiritual growth. We believe different things. Wha make sense to one person (any person) doesn't always make sense to another.
 

rharris001

New Member
This is akin to asking, "Why is Alexander the Great called Alexander the Great?"

It is because this world made "the sacrifice" to make him great. He was actually a tyrant and a barbarian.

I say that to say this: People pick and chose persons, places, things, and ideas that THEY want to make great. These are the things they make sacrifices to. No real sacrifice is made to the Creator. These are sacrifices made to the "god of this world." (2 Cor 4:4) The world is an idolatrous place.

To the Creator in heaven, it is all foolishness and self-serving.

While we think ourselves intelligent, enlightened and advanced, we are really still in a dark place. A Dark Age. And it gets darker every day.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Tell me how you know the passed down Tradition has any comparison to the Original Guidance? I offered they are subject to Chinese Whispers if the original Message is not recorded and kept pure from day 1.
Original Guidance is a big hoax. The Grandpa in the sky (if there is any) never spoke to anyone, nor did he send sons, messengers and manifestations. These are all made up stories.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Original Guidance is a big hoax. The Grandpa in the sky never spoke to anyone, nor did he send sons, messengers and manifestations. These are all made up stories.

I'll say the same thing to you as I've been saying to the Baha'i's all along ... and that is your opinion. Anyone from any faith of non-faith in your case, who states opinions as if they were facts needs to take another look.

Just because I happen to share the same opinion as you, for the most part, doesn't mean I think it is a fact.

But most certainly it illustrates very differing paradigms.

As to 'word' and language being valuable, many Hindus put maunam as being the greatest language of all. Another illustration of very different paradigms.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Simply not true, as you yourself have admitted in the immediate posts above. Please quote where Baha'u'llah understands reincarnation without reinterpretation, of what it's like to bathe in the darshan of the one who has one tusk. You keep changing your mind on this stuff.

It is referred to in the Book of Certitude as 'return' . He describes return as return of the qualities not the individual.
 
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