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How are these Great Beings explained?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The reason I ask is you guys just can't say "I disagree."

That will help A LOT because whatever comments and questions you have, I know from what position you are making your comments and questions.

I don't know about other languages in full, but in English especially online, you need a firm statement (theme or point), your position (disagree, agree, neutral), and your comment, facts, or questions.

It does not cause wars. It just makes the conversation run faster

that is if you are all reading our posts.

You say it does not cause wars then why all these accusations of being insulting? I think I better go back to 'passive disagreement' after all these accusations of being insulting.

You asked us not to quote so we have stopped that as much as possible. We shouldn't be asked to stop quoting but we did stop out of respect. Then you asked us to be more open but when we were more open we were accused of being insulting.

So please make up your mind. Do you want to debate or do you want this thread to be like a DIR where us Baha'is are basically gagged?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We follow whatever God reveals through His Manifestation. So we follow God's interpretation of Hinduism not Hindus interpretation of it. So as God is All Knowing, He knows Hinduism or any of the Faiths better than any of the followers do.

And those who follow the one true God also share in His knowledge of all the religions which He has revealed so we know the truth about a lot more than people think.
I'm sorry. I forgot already. What did the manifestation say about Hinduism?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This is where we look for the Light that is of God. Our Oneness our Unity.

I read the Bible, I read all that is from Hindu and I am looking for te light that binds us, that is of God.

All that makes us exclusive is of our own self.

God bless all and much happiness and Love for you.

Regards Tony
What's going on with Judaism then? Isn't it God that tells them to be exclusive?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The link should take you to the duration of the Dispensation of the Buddha. If it took you somewhere else I need to see the text before commenting.
The link goes to a Buddhist site. In the table of contents, it has a page on the "planes of existence". Since you use part of their teachings, I was wondering what you thought about some of the other things at the site. I would suspect you don't believe in the different planes of existence, but you do believe that the number of years mentioned on the other page can be used to get somewhere near the important Baha'i dates.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why do you think that in creation, which is a Reflection if Gods Atteibutes, that all things given from God are being renewed by going through cycles from birth to death, from light ro darkness, that Religion would be exempt from that renewal.

It is more likely that the renewal will hapoen at the time when rejection if God is at its apex. The Holy books all contain this advice.

Thus what you have posted would only confirm the view that Baha'u'llah has offered.

Regards Tony
So all religions "died" at the same time in 1844?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don't even know if I should answer in full because I don't know how much you understand me not just the words on the screen. (Which is the whole point, spirit over words not words over spirit) You can skip down. I tried to summarize it.

You say it does not cause wars then why all these accusations of being insulting? I think I better go back to 'passive disagreement' after all these accusations of being insulting.

In the beginning, I was focusing on your belief and cultural appropriation. I didn't think you understood how it is insulting other religious that their religions are redefined, made new, or reconciled (however everyone named it) to fit a good goal without everyone else's agreement in the matter.

Many cultures work well with passive agreements. American and other cultures similar to us, passivity leads to vagueness. So we ask more questions (and more and more as you see on other threads) because we come from so many places, it's hard to understand people unless they invest time in understanding by thinking outside their own box.

You asked us not to quote so we have stopped that as much as possible. We shouldn't be asked to stop quoting but we did stop out of respect. Then you asked us to be more open but when we were more open we were accused of being insulting.

I said don't quote because you don't have commentary to what you quote and it takes up most of the post.

If you want to quote, you have to make a point or theme first in your own words so we know what to look for and relate it to whatever you are commenting on so we know a. what we said and b. your position and how you address it. It's a conversational method nothing moral.

So please make up your mind. Do you want to debate or do you want this thread to be like a DIR where us Baha'is are basically gagged?

1. If you want to make a point, let us know

a. what questions and/or comments of ours you want to comment on.

b. Refer to those when making your comments so we know you read our posts instead of having to backtrack.

c. if you want to quote from your scripture, give us a heads up what the point behind it is and/or wrap it up in your own words after you quote it.

This seems only to be a Bahai thing when it comes to not being able to tell others where you stand on a position. The rest could be age, cultural conflicts, a number of things. But online, there needs to be more communication. The "debate forum" title is no excuse for not being able to communicate fairly and it took over two or three thousand posts just to even get this far in showing your emotions.

:leafwind:

I honestly can't think of another way to phrase it. We bring up the issues as they pop up. After awhile, I can't tell if you understand me or just looking at the words as if the words describe who I am rather than the expression of those words by back and forth conversation.

THat's what I mean by being open. But that can't happen unless there is time invested in learning. Debating is fine but the point wasn't to tell you you are wrong. It's my opinion that you are. My issue is how you voice putting other people's religions into your own and interpreting them through Bahai eyes and still calling it Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity (etc).

I mean, we were going back and forth with quoting suttas and I have yet to see how Bahaullah and God of Abraham have anything to do with them. I know you can quote that Bahaullah says X but does he give reasoning behind it? For example, instead of just saying two and two is four, does he actually give a logical (and non-vague) example(s) of how god of abraham is in buddhism?

That, alone, I'm curious about. That, among other things, has not been answered.

:( I know this is a smorgasbord of points.

1. Passive Disagreements in some countries like America sound more avoidance of something. It's a way to hide what one feels, or in other countries, it is respectful to not say how what one feels while other countries find it disrespectful unless you talk to them directly. Cultural differences.

2. Open-mindedness means looking outside your box. If you see god of abraham and bahaullah in the suttas, explain that from a Buddhist point of view. Remember, Buddhism isn't a sacred-book religion. So you can't reply on the suttas as an authority of the Dharma. You have to use a different approach.

3. If you want to quote, tell us your point, what question/comment of ours your quote refers to, and if nothing else, wrap up the quote in your own words. It's not specifically me. It's just in general on all RF topics, most religious and non-religious have a post-method-style.

Another reason is, I can't learn about your belief through Bahaullah. He isn't alive.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So summarize my main points in a sentence or two then.

Describe what it's like to remember a past life, or to bathe in the darshan of He who has one tusk.

I don't remember these things as any of your points. I was speaking of not believing anything blindly so I have no idea what past life has to do with this. Off hand, though, the only thing I can think of with regard to my past life is when I was born again as a Baha'i.

In my past life I was a drinker and gambler and had few ethics or morals. In this new life however, I live for all the Manifestations, for humanity and it is an entirely new and different life.

The Christians understanding of a past life, we believe is the correct one. The inserts below are Christians own interpretations. Baha'is are simply people of former Faiths who have been 'spiritually reborn'. Below Christ also refutes the concept of reincarnation, stating one must be born of the spirit.

John 3:3-8

Jesus answered him, "I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless a person is born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified], he cannot [ever] see and experience the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother's womb a second time and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.

As to your other point. We bathe in the light of Baha'u'llah's Teachings which gives us spiritual strength and sustenance.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I don't even know if I should answer in full because I don't know how much you understand me not just the words on the screen. (Which is the whole point, spirit over words not words over spirit) You can skip down. I tried to summarize it.



In the beginning, I was focusing on your belief and cultural appropriation. I didn't think you understood how it is insulting other religious that their religions are redefined, made new, or reconciled (however everyone named it) to fit a good goal without everyone else's agreement in the matter.

Many cultures work well with passive agreements. American and other cultures similar to us, passivity leads to vagueness. So we ask more questions (and more and more as you see on other threads) because we come from so many places, it's hard to understand people unless they invest time in understanding by thinking outside their own box.



I said don't quote because you don't have commentary to what you quote and it takes up most of the post.

If you want to quote, you have to make a point or theme first in your own words so we know what to look for and relate it to whatever you are commenting on so we know a. what we said and b. your position and how you address it. It's a conversational method nothing moral.



1. If you want to make a point, let us know

a. what questions and/or comments of ours you want to comment on.

b. Refer to those when making your comments so we know you read our posts instead of having to backtrack.

c. if you want to quote from your scripture, give us a heads up what the point behind it is and/or wrap it up in your own words after you quote it.

This seems only to be a Bahai thing when it comes to not being able to tell others where you stand on a position. The rest could be age, cultural conflicts, a number of things. But online, there needs to be more communication. The "debate forum" title is no excuse for not being able to communicate fairly and it took over two or three thousand posts just to even get this far in showing your emotions.

:leafwind:

I honestly can't think of another way to phrase it. We bring up the issues as they pop up. After awhile, I can't tell if you understand me or just looking at the words as if the words describe who I am rather than the expression of those words by back and forth conversation.

THat's what I mean by being open. But that can't happen unless there is time invested in learning. Debating is fine but the point wasn't to tell you you are wrong. It's my opinion that you are. My issue is how you voice putting other people's religions into your own and interpreting them through Bahai eyes and still calling it Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity (etc).

I mean, we were going back and forth with quoting suttas and I have yet to see how Bahaullah and God of Abraham have anything to do with them. I know you can quote that Bahaullah says X but does he give reasoning behind it? For example, instead of just saying two and two is four, does he actually give a logical (and non-vague) example(s) of how god of abraham is in buddhism?

That, alone, I'm curious about. That, among other things, has not been answered.

:( I know this is a smorgasbord of points.

1. Passive Disagreements in some countries like America sound more avoidance of something. It's a way to hide what one feels, or in other countries, it is respectful to not say how what one feels while other countries find it disrespectful unless you talk to them directly. Cultural differences.

2. Open-mindedness means looking outside your box. If you see god of abraham and bahaullah in the suttas, explain that from a Buddhist point of view. Remember, Buddhism isn't a sacred-book religion. So you can't reply on the suttas as an authority of the Dharma. You have to use a different approach.

3. If you want to quote, tell us your point, what question/comment of ours your quote refers to, and if nothing else, wrap up the quote in your own words. It's not specifically me. It's just in general on all RF topics, most religious and non-religious have a post-method-style.

Another reason is, I can't learn about your belief through Bahaullah. He isn't alive.

Thanks for clarifying things. Its not easy to understand something new. its a new paradigm, a different consciousness and reality. So although we are on the same thread using the same language, we live in completely different worlds.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
What would a Jew say the inner essence of Judaism is? And same thing for a Christian, what would they say is the inner essence of Christianity? Now, what does the Baha'i Faith say is the inner essence of all religions?

Being virtuous and of good character, serving your fellow man and so on.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
And how did he do this? Why did they believe him and follow him?

They felt His love and kindness and became spiritually enlightened through Christ. He brought them nearer to God by His Teachings and Person and many people became transformed.

I was taught love, truthfulness and forgiveness when I was young through Jesus, virtues that remained with me all my life.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I'm sorry. I forgot already. What did the manifestation say about Hinduism?

If you study the Writings of Baha'u'llah, you will find all the concepts of all religions mentioned somewhere, perhaps in differing terminology, but explained fully.

For instance, Baha'u'llah speaks about Reincarnation in the Book of Certitude but refers to it as 'return' and goes into some depth about it.

Terminologies may vary but I'm sure once we identify the identical term in each Faith you will find Baha'u'llah wrote a lot about many Hindu concepts and beliefs in His Own style.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
@adrian009

Similar that you not saying you are Muslim, Hindu, etc I wouldn't say I am a Catholic because to be Catholic, you have to continuously take part in the sacraments, attend Mass, and be in communion with christ and his father.

What we don't have in common is if my religion had prophets, it wouldn't be from other religions (Jesus included) because those prophets, regardless of what they teach, are not part of my religion and I am not a part of theirs. For example, I believe in all The Buddha's teachings. I would never have him as a prophet in my religion because I agree with his teachings. Instead, if I am a Buddhist, I would follow as a Buddhist. If I were a practicing Catholic, I'd practice as a Catholic and so forth.

I have no right to have a belief centered around other people's prophets. Regardless if I think they agree with each other, I know they don't, not from my point of view (in this analogy) but from theirs. Their opinion counts. If I respect diversity and unity, I respect their opinion regardless of what I believe.

Been a busy week at work so picking up on this thread where we left off.

An important distinction here is that as a Baha'i I have recognised that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. So the logical step is to become a Baha'i. I do not see that as moving away from God, but moving closer to Him as He would want me to follow the One He promised would come. So God, Jesus, and the Bible become more, not less relevant. You may disagree but it is what it is. There is a parallel with the Jews who became Christians. I think this is different from one who has been a Catholic but is no longer practising. I'm still practicing, but my practice as changed.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I won't say you didn't read what I said. I knew you were going to agree, that's why I gave different examples that your perspective is different and not the same as half the other world's.

You do not need Bahaullah's words at all.

You just need god.

That is the point. Spirit over words. Not words over spirit.

I would offer I am nothing without the Words of Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), I would not exist, I would not be here answering your questions and observations, thus Baha'u'llah is My Life, he has shown us God our creator.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Many Hindu sampradayas still function entirely on the oral tradition, and the skills are not lost because a successor is always appointed. But you wouldn't be expected to know that, as you don't know much about Hinduism at all.

Why would you assume that I do not know the Traditions were passed down?

Tell me how you know the passed down Tradition has any comparison to the Original Guidance? I offered they are subject to Chinese Whispers if the original Message is not recorded and kept pure from day 1.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So all religions "died" at the same time in 1844?

The message of Islam which was in its winter was folded up and God new Message of the Bab opened the Spring of the New Day of God as promised by all the Holy Books of the past.

The Jewish Faith was renewed with the Message of Christ.

The Christian Faith was renewed with the Message of Muhammad in 622 AD, it lasted the 1260 years as foretold in Revelation.

In each of these Springs all followers of the previous Faiths have the choice of seeing the new Spring.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This popped out at me. I can see why the Muslims don't agree, but of course they could have settled their disagreements peacefully. :(

Baha'is continue to subject to intense persecution and discrimination in Iran and a number of other Muslim countries. You would need to ask the Muslims of Iran why they took the step of trying to eradicate the Baha'is.

You know, out of all the posts I can remember in this small thread "agree to disagree, right?" is the closest to disagreement I got. I'm glads it from you but is it an unorthodox method of agreement in the Bahai faith?

I've been having a similar conversation on another thread. I think that the best we do on RF is respectfully hear each others POWs. I've seen some intense clashes when this doesn't happen.

You can understand why other religions disagree with you?

Of course. The claim to be the fulfilment of all the major world religions often elicits intense reactions in some. It is not something that we consciously raise too early on in conversations for obvious reasons. However, at some point, it is a discussion that needs to be had.

You get it! LOL Halleluyah! Now what?.......

This is about the Baha'i view of other religions being outdated. I would never say this, except about the Abrahamic Faiths, particular Christianity. Baha'is should avoid giving or taking offence. However as we become involved in more in depth discussions, there needs to be some difficult discussion about the relevance of some religious teachings in this modern world. There are a number of examples from Christianity and I have started threads over the last few months to address such beliefs as alleged exclusive claims of Christ, His Divinity, and literal resurrection as well as a consideration about the stories in the first nine chapters of Genesis.

You and @arthra converse differently than @loverofhumanity and @investigatoroftruth. It get's confusing of what Bahai actually believe but remember, I learn best from experience. Reading about it is different than hearing you guys experiences in the faith.

Baha'is are a diverse group of people and we all have different personalities and styles of writing on RF. Baha'is are encouraged to careful and moderate in what we post on social media sites like FB. The same principles apply here. We all bring something of ourselves to RF and we are all learning to be wiser and more circumspect in what we have to say.

Yeah. I thought of a more detailed analogy. You have one temple and many people of different faiths Bahai-christian, Bahai-Muslim, etc come to revere the message of peace and unity.

While in another sect of the galaxy, there are many temples, churches, mosques, etc that work for peace and unity. The biggest difference is they rather stay in their own four walls to do it. I don't see how that's a step backwards or not productive to whereas Lover puts it, we will some day come to that one temple rather than have our own, but there ya go.

Of course we all have our own faith communities. Baha'is along with a number of other Faith communities seek to make a positive contribution to the communities where we reside and work alongside peoples of all backgrounds. So we have spaces where we do our own thing and spaces where we share. The emphasis for the Baha'is is on the latter.

Yeah. Reminds me of Yes-men. There was a Star Trek episode on something like that where all the people on this one planet were peaceful. They eliminated wars and disagreements because they grew a plant that when taken in the aroma keeps them at peaceful thoughts. To Kaptin Kirk it seemed robotic but it made sense.

Then Kirk came and realize there were no illnesses nothing. He thought there was something wrong with happiness and peace. So, he destroyed the plants so people can experience suffering.

So, it could be a cultural thing too. I was kinda annoyed to but I wouldn't make people suffer all because they want peace and not die and all of that. America.

I used to watch star trek growing up but don't recall that episode. Somehow or other I doubt if the Baha'is here are like those robotic yes-men.:)
 
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