Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

MJFlores · May 24, 2017

DavidFirth said:
The celebration of the risen Christ isn't pagan. You can hunt eggs or whatever but Jesus' resurrection is celebrated by Christianity because in it death is conquered. Nothing pagan about that.

The modern English term Easter, cognate with modern Dutch ooster and German Ostern, developed from an Old Englishword that usually appears in the form Ēastrun, -on, or -an; but also as Ēastru, -o; and Ēastre or Ēostre.[nb 3] The most widely accepted theory of the origin of the term is that it is derived from the name of an Old English goddess mentioned by the 7th to 8th-century English monk Bede, who wrote that Ēosturmōnaþ (Old English 'Month of Ēostre', translated in Bede's time as "Paschal month") was an English month, corresponding to April, which he says "was once called after a goddess of theirs named Ēostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month".

Easter - Wikipedia

Ēostre - Wikipedia

Strangely enough, even Islamic Iran is influenced by Ēostre in their own version of this celebration - Nowruz

Nowruz - Wikipedia

Muffled · May 25, 2017

pcarl said:
I though Lazarus died of natural causes. And he was not resurrected, he was resuscitated.

Resurrection is the concept of coming back to life after death. Wikipedia.
Resuscitation is the process of correcting physiological disorders (such as lack of breathing or heartbeat) in an acutely unwell patient. Wikipedia.

I believe Lazarus had been dead for four days and medical procedures were not used to bring him back to life.

Muffled · May 25, 2017

adrian009 said:
I believe it is the inspired word of God too and that the apostles were guided by God's unerring spirit. The resurrection is an phenomenon of profound spiritual importance central to the Christian narrative. However, I do not believe it happened literally.

I have no problem with God's credibility.

Nor do I have trouble with God's Power and Omnipotence. The Bible contains sacred writings that draw on mythology as well as actual history to teach profound spiritual truths.

I believe since your belief runs contrary to the account of witnesses then you will have to present reasons why you believe this unless you wish to admit you belief is without foundation.

Muffled · May 25, 2017

adrian009 said:
That is a reasonable answer. Hindus don't take too much inspiration from the biblical accounts just as Christians don't find meaning in the vast body of sacred texts of Hinduism.

I believe any meaning derived from art without asking the author if he had a meaning is just mere speculation and in some cases fantasy. It is not a real meaning.

I believe the same is true for scripture. However words have definite meanings and usually the right one can be reasoned from context. A person sticking in a false definition or getting a meaning out of context is not deriving a true meaning. I believe what a Hindu might have trouble with is relating to the context.

Ingledsva · May 25, 2017

DavidFirth said:
The celebration of the risen Christ isn't pagan. You can hunt eggs or whatever but Jesus' resurrection is celebrated by Christianity because in it death is conquered. Nothing pagan about that.

Well of course the plopped-on-top newer religion is celebrating Iesous on the Pagan holiday.

These are - Turnings of the Year Holidays. Winter Solstice/Yule/Christmas, Spring Equinox/Ostara/Easter, Summer Solstice, Fall Equinox, etc.

Ancient people watched for, - and celebrated, - the Winter and Summer Solstices, and the Spring and Fall Equinoxes. They often associated religious events with them. It is easy to celebrate on the right dates if the sky shows you it is time with a visible event.

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Evangelicalhumanist · May 25, 2017

Here's a thought about the of this thread: if Jesus resurrected, then he was alive. If he is in heaven, then he must have later died (again). If the latter is not true, then Jesus must be a non-heavenly being ensconced in heaven, which is a decidedly odd way to look at his co-deity nature.

pearl · May 26, 2017

Muffled said:
I believe Lazarus had been dead for four days and medical procedures were not used to bring him back to life.

One who was resurrected does not die again. Lazarus was resuscitated, as he was brought back to his physical life and went on to die again, symbolized by emerging from the tomb still bound with the burial clothes. Resurrection is eternal life. Jesus' raising from the dead (Lazarus, the son of the widow of Nain, the daughter of Jairus are recounted by the evangelists as miraculous resuscitations, similar to those done by the OT prophets Elijah and Elisha. Resuscitation restores ordinary life; resurrection involves eternal life.

DavidFirth · May 26, 2017

Ingledsva said:
Well of course the plopped-on-top newer religion is celebrating Iesous on the Pagan holiday.

These are - Turnings of the Year Holidays. Winter Solstice/Yule/Christmas, Spring Equinox/Ostara/Easter, Summer Solstice, Fall Equinox, etc.

Ancient people watched for, - and celebrated, - the Winter and Summer Solstices, and the Spring and Fall Equinoxes. They often associated religious events with them. It is easy to celebrate on the right dates if the sky shows you it is time with a visible event.

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Well, of course you are biased against Christianity, obviously, so no wonder you are confused about the real meaning of Easter.

It isn't pagan, it's Jesus Christ's resurrection from the dead. Sure, you can beef about it all you want but Christ conquered death and that is what Christians celebrate.

The rest of the Easter stuff is just bogus and meaningless.

Dawnofhope · May 26, 2017

Muffled said:
I believe since your belief runs contrary to the account of witnesses then you will have to present reasons why you believe this unless you wish to admit you belief is without foundation.

The body of Christ is a symbol for the church or body of His faithful believers. Death is a symbol for unbelief. It was the body of Christ or the Church that rose to life, not Christ's physical body. Although the story appears literal, there is ample evidence to suggest it isn't.

Dawnofhope · May 26, 2017

MJFlores said:
Sounds like just a bedtime story to you.

Not at all.

MJFlores said:
Well, I have to admit - I have the same views before. But with what is happening to the world these days and what happened in the past - "those stories" gave me a wake up call.

Matthew 24:4-8 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

If you read Matthew 24 carefully you will appreciate Jesus is talking about two historic periods. He is talking about events in the near future when He prophecises that the second temple will be destroyed, as well as tribulations that will be faced by both Jews and Christians with the end of an era for the Jewish people (no more Jerusalem and temple) and the rise of the Church. It is in this context Jesus speaks of watching out for false Messiah's as of course He (Jesus) has already come. The Jews later followed Bar Kochba who led the Jews on a failed revolt against the Romans. He was a good example of a false Messiah who met the Jews expectations of a King David like warrior leader who they thought would conquer the Romans.

Bar Kokhba revolt - Wikipedia

The second event is of course His Return or Parousia in the distant future. Jesus uses the more immediate events as an allegory for the second.

Dawnofhope · May 26, 2017

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Here's a thought about the of this thread: if Jesus resurrected, then he was alive. If he is in heaven, then he must have later died (again). If the latter is not true, then Jesus must be a non-heavenly being ensconced in heaven, which is a decidedly odd way to look at his co-deity nature.

The story of a literal resurrection is contrary to both reason and science. There are many problems with this literal belief as you no doubt appreciate.

syo · May 26, 2017

adrian009 said:
I'm very aware of the beliefs of the orthodox/conservative Christians, You're welcome to share your beliefs about the resurrection narrative and explain why that makes sense to you.

it makes sense because if Jesus literally resurrected then he defeated death by all means. if it was allegory and the flesh remained dead then death would have won.

Ingledsva · May 26, 2017

DavidFirth said:
Well, of course you are biased against Christianity, obviously, so no wonder you are confused about the real meaning of Easter.

It isn't pagan, it's Jesus Christ's resurrection from the dead. Sure, you can beef about it all you want but Christ conquered death and that is what Christians celebrate.

The rest of the Easter stuff is just bogus and meaningless.

Bogus?

"That which is called Pascha originally had nothing to do with the Egyptian Exodus. It was the ancient New-Harvest Festival. They would wave a FIRST-sheaf of the New Harvest, and until this is done neither bread or roasted grain of the new harvest can be eaten (Lev. 23:9-14)!" Unger's Bible Encyclopedia

Unger tells us they make a distinction between the "Egyptian Passover" and the permanent! This is the Festival where they bring their "first fruits" for sacrifice, - and of course originally that was to insure continuing fertility.

" ...Eostur-monath has a name which is now translated Paschal month, and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.” - Bede, De temporum ratione, Ch. xv, De mensibus Anglorum

"Pesach begins on the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nissan. It is the first of the three major festivals with both historical and agricultural significance (the other two are Shavu'ot and Sukkot). Agriculturally, it represents the beginning of the harvest season in Israel, but little attention is paid to this aspect of the holiday..." Judaism 101: Pesach: Passover

The Religious Tolerance.org page on the Spring Equinox. - Spring Equinox celebrations of Christianity, Judaism, Neopaganism, etc

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DavidFirth · May 26, 2017

Easter is about the resurrection of Christ. All of the junk you posted above is useless and meaningless.

CG Didymus · May 26, 2017

adrian009 said:
The body of Christ is a symbol for the church or body of His faithful believers. Death is a symbol for unbelief. It was the body of Christ or the Church that rose to life, not Christ's physical body. Although the story appears literal, there is ample evidence to suggest it isn't.

I know we've gone over this before, but let's go over it one more time. Jesus arrives in Jerusalem. Historical, literal fact or symbolism? Same with the rest of the events leading up to the crucifixion. Did they really happen or were they only symbolic? The crucifixion itself. Did it really happen or was it only symbolic?

Now Jesus is dead. He gets put in a tomb. So what happened next? Do Baha'is believe the story switches from Jesus to the "body" of believers being dead? One Baha'i said there is a story that his body got buried under a wall in Jerusalem. But regardless, for sure from this point forward, we are only taking about the body of Christ being his followers, correct? If so, then four different writers tell the story as if it is Jesus that comes back to life. So that is wrong. So tell me what the symbolism is in the rest of the gospel story?

They see the empty tomb. What is the symbolism? They go back tell the others. Symbolism in that? Jesus appears and talks to them, but if it is not Jesus but the believers as the body of Christ, then explain what really happened? Thomas has his doubts but touches one of the other believers and not Jesus? Then, the last thing, Jesus ascends. So, in keeping with the believers being the body, they rise into the clouds?

Dawnofhope · May 26, 2017

CG Didymus said:
I know we've gone over this before, but let's go over it one more time.

No problem.

CG Didymus said:
Jesus arrives in Jerusalem. Historical, literal fact or symbolism?

There is good reason to believe that Jesus who lived in the locality and was a great Spiritual Teacher, would have journeyed to Judea and visited Jerusalem as recorded in the Gospels. There would have been symbolism in visiting the Holy City and during His final sermon He refers to the destruction of the second Temple and the plight of His people.

CG Didymus said:
Same with the rest of the events leading up to the crucifixion. Did they really happen or were they only symbolic? The crucifixion itself. Did it really happen or was it only symbolic?

Which specific events do you refer? The crucifixion happened and there is profound symbolism around this central event in Christian history.

CG Didymus said:
Now Jesus is dead. He gets put in a tomb. So what happened next? Do Baha'is believe the story switches from Jesus to the "body" of believers being dead?

We don't know whether He was put in a tomb although this was certainly recorded in the gospels. It is remarkable that during the last supper, Jesus refers to His body as being the bread and His blood wine and a symbol of the New Covenant. This too is a crucial event to consider.

There are many verses that I have shared with you from the NT that support the connection between the body of Christ as a symbol for the community of faithful believers.

CG Didymus said:
One Baha'i said there is a story that his body got buried under a wall in Jerusalem.

There is nothing in the Baha'i writings that supports this.

CG Didymus said:
But regardless, for sure from this point forward, we are only taking about the body of Christ being his followers, correct?

Abdu'l-Baha rejects the notion of a literal resurrection based on the problem with ascension meaning the ascent into the physical heavens or sky to be with His father in heaven in the spiritual heaven.

CG Didymus said:
If so, then four different writers tell the story as if it is Jesus that comes back to life. So that is wrong. So tell me what the symbolism is in the rest of the gospel story?

The stories read at first glance certainly appear to support that the physical resurrection literally happened, but there are inconsistencies and oddities in the accounts if we are taking them literally. For example His followers don't seem to recognise Him at first and He appears as both a physical person and then a spirit. Its not consistent with an historic account. Further there is little to support that any of the Gospel writers were eye witnesses to the events they wrote about. The first gospels were written at least 20 years after Jesus was crucified so it is thought that the synoptic gospels at least drew their inspiration from the preaching of Paul to the Gentiles. An emphasis on a resurrected God resonated with the Greeks, and why not as it had profound allegorical meaning that connected so well with scripture. Paul never saw the resurrected Christ but reading 1 Corinthians 15 you have the impression he did, until you reread it a few times.

CG Didymus said:
They see the empty tomb. What is the symbolism?

The empty tomb is symbolic of rising above both the death of unbelief and physical death.

CG Didymus said:
They go back tell the others. Symbolism in that?

This is the beginning of when the Gospel or Good News of Christ is preached, three days after His crucifixion. The Body of Christ (The Church comes to life).

CG Didymus said:
Jesus appears and talks to them, but if it is not Jesus but the believers as the body of Christ, then explain what really happened?

Christ lives in their hearts and they spiritually experience Christ and the One true living God.

CG Didymus said:
Thomas has his doubts but touches one of the other believers and not Jesus?

Thomas realises he must follow in Jesus's footsteps and be prepared to suffer as He did, even be prepared to be put to be martyred as Christ was.

CG Didymus said:
Then, the last thing, Jesus ascends. So, in keeping with the believers being the body, they rise into the clouds?

His Cause is established, the Name of Christ is Glorified, and we know that Jesus is eternally alive with His Father in Heaven. We too can have eternal life and rise to glory if we believe in Him and follow Him.

pearl · May 27, 2017

Ingledsva said:
holiday

Ingledsva said:
Well of course the plopped-on-top newer religion is celebrating Iesous on the Pagan holiday.

Christianity has adopted from Pagan holidays the symbolism it associates with Christ. Setting Dec25 for Jesus' birthday the symbol of light to the world as days begin to become lighter. Spring the time of new life, etc. I don't know why one would have problem with that.

Ingledsva · May 30, 2017

DavidFirth said:
Easter is about the resurrection of Christ. All of the junk you posted above is useless and meaningless.

LOL! Not!

That info is from a CHRISTIAN Bible Encyclopedia, a JEWISH site - JUDAISM 101, and Bede.

We know how and where these holidays originate.

Think about this, If Jesus was a real person, and claiming to be the awaited Messiah (not God,) - then he would try to fulfill all the written and mythic requirements about the Messiah that he could. In fact the Bible has him saying certain things MUST be done to fulfill prophecy. Then he dies instead. So, LATER writers add on that he must die for us, and the dying is set at the time for the Sacrifice of the Lamb, and then they claim he will return to fulfill the other Messiah prophecies.

And of course if he is pure myth, all we have to do is read about the other dying savior demi-gods. Just a different version.

The Jews don't accept him as their awaited Messiah! And that speaks volumes!

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Ingledsva · May 30, 2017

pcarl said:
Christianity has adopted from Pagan holidays the symbolism it associates with Christ. Setting Dec25 for Jesus' birthday the symbol of light to the world as days begin to become lighter. Spring the time of new life, etc. I don't know why one would have problem with that.

Well of course they used the Pagan holidays.

The problem is how far into the pagan they go.

The Spring Equinox was a celebration of sex and fertility for the crops, flocks, and humans. They sacrificed animals and grain, and humans. Winter Solstice is the rebirth of the SUN/son. Read the Pagan mythology.

Then we take Jesus -

Conceived on the Spring Equinox fertility festival, born around nine months later on the Winter Solstice Birth of the SUN, and then Sacrificed on the Spring Equinox, - the sacrifice insures fertility = LIFE.

What do you expect us to think?

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pearl · May 30, 2017

Ingledsva said:
The Spring Equinox was a celebration of sex and fertility for the crops, flocks, and humans. They sacrificed animals and grain, and humans. Winter Solstice is the rebirth of the SUN/son. Read the Pagan mythology.

Signs of new life, which is why they were conducive to symbolizing the new life the risen Jesus represents;
Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Ingledsva said:
Conceived on the Spring Equinox fertility festival, born around nine months later on the Winter Solstice Birth of the SUN, and then Sacrificed on the Spring Equinox, - the sacrifice insures fertility = LIFE.

Most believe that Jesus was born near spring, around March. Dec 25 simply chosen by the church to celebrate the end of dark days and the beginning of lighter days, as Jesus is believed to be the 'light' of the world.

Ingledsva said:
What do you expect us to think?

Actually, I don't give a thought to what you think.

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