How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

rosends · May 23, 2017

These have been debunked so often it seems like a waste of time, so I'll just make these quick and give links instead of copying and pasting.

rusra02 said:
“O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel.”—Micah 5:2.
Fulfillment: Jesus was born in Bethlehem. When Caesar Augustus ordered a census, Jesus’ foster father, Joseph, was obliged to go from Nazareth to “Judea [Judah], to David’s city, which is called Bethlehem, because of his being a member of the house and family of David, to get registered with Mary.” While there, Mary “gave birth to her son” Jesus.—Luke 2:1-7.

A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 9. The King Messiah

rusra02 said:
“He will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death.”—Isaiah 53:9.
Fulfillment: Jesus was executed alongside two condemned criminals, yet he was buried in a quarried-out tomb donated by a wealthy believer—Joseph of Arimathea.—Matthew 27:38,57-60; John 19:38.

Ignoring the fact that the chosen verse means that he should have died with the rich and not the criminals, and buried with the wicked, not a rich man's grave...
A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 12. The Suffering Servant

rusra02 said:
“From the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks.”—Daniel 9:25.
Fulfillment: The period of time specified in Daniel’s prophecy amounts to 69 units of 7 years each, or 483 years. The rebuilding of Jerusalem began in 455 B.C.E. As prophesied, 483 years (69 weeks of years) later, in 29 C.E., Jesus became the Anointed One, or Messiah, when he was baptized and anointed with God’s holy spirit.*—Luke 3:21, 22.
Source

This chronology is wrong and culminates in a counter textual claim of "anointed with" a spirit even though the anointing has to be with a specific oil.

A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 7. The L-RD'S Anointed

rusra02 said:
As to how Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, this quote explains: "To illustrate: A builder fulfills a contract to complete a building, not by ripping up the contract, but by finishing the structure. However, once the work has been completed to the client’s satisfaction, the contract is fulfilled and the builder is no longer under obligation to it. Likewise, Jesus did not break, or rip up, the Law; rather, he fulfilled it by keeping it perfectly. Once fulfilled, that Law “contract” was no longer binding on God’s people." Thus, " Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness." (Romans 10:4)

Except that a law is not a contract, so once I drive the speed limit on Tuesday this does not mean that I can break the speed limit on Wednesday. And the covenant (and the laws) are textually claimed to be eternal so any sense of their being "no longer binding" contradicts the text.

roger1440 · May 25, 2017

rusra02 said:
“O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel.”—Micah 5:2.
Fulfillment: Jesus was born in Bethlehem. When Caesar Augustus ordered a census, Jesus’ foster father, Joseph, was obliged to go from Nazareth to “Judea [Judah], to David’s city, which is called Bethlehem, because of his being a member of the house and family of David, to get registered with Mary.” While there, Mary “gave birth to her son” Jesus.—Luke 2:1-7.

“He will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death.”—Isaiah 53:9.
Fulfillment: Jesus was executed alongside two condemned criminals, yet he was buried in a quarried-out tomb donated by a wealthy believer—Joseph of Arimathea.—Matthew 27:38,57-60; John 19:38.

“From the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks.”—Daniel 9:25.
Fulfillment: The period of time specified in Daniel’s prophecy amounts to 69 units of 7 years each, or 483 years. The rebuilding of Jerusalem began in 455 B.C.E. As prophesied, 483 years (69 weeks of years) later, in 29 C.E., Jesus became the Anointed One, or Messiah, when he was baptized and anointed with God’s holy spirit.*—Luke 3:21, 22.
Source
As to how Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, this quote explains: "To illustrate: A builder fulfills a contract to complete a building, not by ripping up the contract, but by finishing the structure. However, once the work has been completed to the client’s satisfaction, the contract is fulfilled and the builder is no longer under obligation to it. Likewise, Jesus did not break, or rip up, the Law; rather, he fulfilled it by keeping it perfectly. Once fulfilled, that Law “contract” was no longer binding on God’s people." Thus, " Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness." (Romans 10:4)

How would I be able to verify any of those? Not one thing you had mentioned is “self-evident”. Let me give you an example. If you were to tell me Jesus rebuilt the Temple, I can check that claim. I can use Google Earth and see if there is a Temple sitting on that site. I can jump on a plane and see it for myself, or I can talk to people who are there or been there recently. If you were to tell me Jesus brought world peace, I don’t think I would have to investigate very deeply to find out.

All you have done was to quote words from books.

rusra02 · May 26, 2017

roger1440 said:
How would I be able to verify any of those? Not one thing you had mentioned is “self-evident”. Let me give you an example. If you were to tell me Jesus rebuilt the Temple, I can check that claim. I can use Google Earth and see if there is a Temple sitting on that site. I can jump on a plane and see it for myself, or I can talk to people who are there or been there recently. If you were to tell me Jesus brought world peace, I don’t think I would have to investigate very deeply to find out.

All you have done was to quote words from books.

I think Jesus impact on the world is self-evident, as is his teachings, and the fulfillment of prophecies he uttered. Using your standard for historical evidence that discounts eyewitness testimony, would leave very little of the historical record. I find the evidence overwhelming that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Flankerl · May 26, 2017

Too bad he's dead though.

Akivah · May 26, 2017

Flankerl said:
Too bad he's dead though.

Assuming jesus ever lived.

roger1440 · May 26, 2017

rusra02 said:
I think Jesus impact on the world is self-evident, as is his teachings, and the fulfillment of prophecies he uttered. Using your standard for historical evidence that discounts eyewitness testimony, would leave very little of the historical record. I find the evidence overwhelming that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures.

As of yet, you told me nothing

S.T.Ranger · May 27, 2017

1137 said:
For example, the Christian god is all about love, forgiveness, joy, light, and so on, the Hebrew God has no such duality.

Apparently you have not spent much time in the Hebrew Scriptures. God is of consistent Character in both Old and New Testaments.

1137 said:
In Christianity the whole of power consists of God and Satan,

Apparently you have not spent much time in the New Testament.

The "whole of power" exists in the omnipotent God...alone. He is Sovereign. Satan is a created being and while having power, is limited in that he is but a created being.

1137 said:
even if to a (supposedly) unequal degree.

Both Old and New Testaments place Satan as under God's sovereignty.

1137 said:
In Judaism, God is the creator of both light and dark, forgiving and vengeful, loving yet severe. The very core of their nature differs, and therefore the must be different entities.

In Christianity, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is the Creator, which makes Him the creator of light and dark:

John 1:1-3
King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

He is forgiving and vengeful.

Forgiving:

Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Vengeful:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Loving...

Revelation 1:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

...yet severe...

Revelation 2:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

The consistency is pretty apparent.

Continued...

S.T.Ranger · May 27, 2017

1137 said:
The greatest example of this is the conception of Satan between Judaism and Christianity. In Christianity, Satan is essentially The Devil - that is to say the two words mean the same thing.

You mean no Jew has ever read Job and figured out that Satan was not one of the good guys?

1137 said:
There is no Devil in Judaism, and "Satan" is a title (meaning "adversary") deignating and angel,

Many Jews fail to see that God promised relationship with God through Christ as well.

Does that mean we nullify the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures? Based on their lack of understanding?

Isaiah 42
King James Version (KJV)

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

1137 said:
who in fulfilling orders from God himself, sent to test man's faith.

We see that in Job, but that is neither enough to limit who Satan is, or what he does. Satan did not seek to test Job's faith, he sought to destroy it.

You are going to have to do better than express opinion and offer arguments that preclude the realities of what Scripture teaches.

Continued...

S.T.Ranger · May 27, 2017

1137 said:
Another would be the idea that Jesus is a demigod, which is definitely not an option in Judaism.

Its not an option in Christianity either, so again, another argument offered which is not relevant to the realities of the Person of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, One with the Father and Spirit:

Revelation 1:10-11; 17-18
King James Version (KJV)

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Now let's see the consistency of God in Scripture:

Isaiah 44:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

If one sees not the consistency, it is only because they refuse to.

1137 said:
Even the Messiah is of human parents.

Actually, Messiah had only one parent, a mother, named Mary.

1137 said:
A random guy came in, said he was god, twisted God's word to fit his own needs,

Give examples of Christ "twisting God's Word."

1137 said:
said the "old" word of God was meaningless,

Show where Christ makes this declaration. and denies His Own Word.

1137 said:
and proceeded to call himself the Messiah.

Actually, He lets men come to that conclusion on their own.

Still does.

1137 said:
I can't imagine something much more blasphemous from a Jewish perspective.

Wait, its okay for Israel to reject God but they suddenly take offense when someone shows them what their Scriptures mean? lol

Here is a statement from the Writer of Hebrews which speaks of the issue that (unbelieving) Jews would do well to take into consideration:

Hebrews 5:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1137 said:
Seems pretty damn well reasoned to me.

Seems like opinionated syllogism to me.

1137 said:
Maybe actually wait to have your questions answered before putting your foot in your mouth?

But you didn't answer them. You simply offer nonsense that can be shown to be erroneous.

Now where is your foot, my friend?

God bless.

roger1440 · May 28, 2017

rusra02 said:
I think Jesus impact on the world is self-evident, as is his teachings, and the fulfillment of prophecies he uttered. Using your standard for historical evidence that discounts eyewitness testimony, would leave very little of the historical record. I find the evidence overwhelming that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Hmm, I had to think about what you wrote for a while before I would comment. Since you like to quote, I’ll the same. I’m reminded of what the French philosopher Voltaire once said, “In order to converse with me define your terms”. When say Jesus is the Messiah what do you mean by “Messiah”? The very concept of the Jewish Messiah is not found in any single verse, chapter or book in the Jewish Bible. The concept of the Messiah is derived from joining together different verses from different authors from different books written at different times at different places. To farther complicate the matter Jews have never been in agreement on what the Messiah is. For you or anyone to say Jesus is or is not the Jewish Messiah we would have to come to agreement what the Jewish Messiah is or is not. The starting point must be Jewish scripture.

Tumah · May 28, 2017

roger1440 said:
farther

further

wizanda · May 28, 2017

rosends said:
A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 9. The King Messiah

Their whole premise is wrong, trying to imply that Isaiah 53, Isaiah 28, Ezekiel 7, Zechariah 11, Jeremiah 25, Daniel 9, wasn't specifications of what caused the Diaspora, shows lack of comprehension.

It is like so quick to the spoils, and so desperate for the end result; that some have missed doing the math, that gets us to that destination.

Isaiah 5:18-19 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords (inheritance) of falsehood, and wickedness as with cart rope; (19) Who say, “Let him make speed, let him hasten his work, that we may see it; and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, that we may know it!”

With the comprehension of understanding all the math, it proves without a shadow of a doubt all things will be fulfilled, as the rest has already happened.

rosends · May 28, 2017

wizanda said:
Their whole premise is wrong, trying to imply that Isaiah 53, Isaiah 28, Ezekiel 7, Zechariah 11, Jeremiah 25, Daniel 9, wasn't specifications of what caused the Diaspora, shows lack of comprehension.

It is like so quick to the spoils, and so desperate for the end result; that some have missed doing the math, that gets us to that destination.

Isaiah 5:18-19 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords (inheritance) of falsehood, and wickedness as with cart rope; (19) Who say, “Let him make speed, let him hasten his work, that we may see it; and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, that we may know it!”

With the comprehension of understanding all the math, it proves without a shadow of a doubt all things will be fulfilled, as the rest has already happened.

That's nice of you to opine, but your whole premise is wrong. You are so quick to the spoils -- so desperate to justify your belief that you lose track of the actual text, especially when you study it in pieces and translation.

You are so convinced that you are right and you validate that by misinterpreting the text to justify the conclusions you need to reach. It reminds me of Is. 5:22, "Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and in their own estimation, of profound understanding."

wizanda · May 28, 2017

Shalom,

rosends said:
so desperate to justify your belief that you lose track of the actual text

By all means show where, always willing to learn...

Yet if it is just more grammatical inconsistencies, and an inability to look at things metaphorically, then we'll just go round in circles.

rosends said:
You are so quick to the spoils

That is an interesting question, maybe should stop being a doomsayer, and help fix Judaism, etc... Yet can you imagine the chances of that happening?

rosends said:
You are so convinced that you are right

Not in the slightest, as a 5 year old, i thought the whole thing was my childish imagination; as a 25 year old, i still didn't take any of it seriously, yet found it shocking to find what I'd been told was in there...

Now 39 and still studying religions globally, to confirm every last little point in any contexts; which is why say please educate where there is error.

rosends said:
you validate that by misinterpreting the text to justify the conclusions you need to reach.

I was just shown the end result, the math is within the text, that has taken years to see how it fits together....

With lots of changes along the way, as become more educated to where things fit within a Hebraic timeline.

When have you ever met anyone who systematically shows why Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros) are false; this doesn't just come from a preconceived notion, as did accept all the text until reading it carefully, and understanding each person's theological direction, and their interacting statements.

rosends · May 28, 2017

wizanda said:
Shalom,

By all means show where, always willing to learn...

Yet if it is just more grammatical inconsistencies, and an inability to look at things metaphorically, then we'll just go round in circles.

That is an interesting question, maybe should stop being a doomsayer, and help fix Judaism, etc... Yet can you imagine the chances of that happening?

Not in the slightest, as a 5 year old, i thought the whole thing was my childish imagination; as a 25 year old, i still didn't take any of it seriously, yet found it shocking to find what I'd been told was in there...

Now 39 and still studying religions globally, to confirm every last little point in any contexts; which is why say please educate where there is error.

I was just shown the end result, the math is within the text, that has taken years to see how it fits together....

With lots of changes along the way, as become more educated to where things fit within a Hebraic timeline.

When have you ever met anyone who systematically shows why Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros) are false; this doesn't just come from a preconceived notion, as did accept all the text until reading it carefully, and understanding each person's theological direction, and their interacting statements.

and all I had to do was parrot exactly what you wrote to me. Except when it is said to you, it somehow doesn't apply. Curious. You will continue to dismiss what doesn't work for you and tell anyone who understands differently that yours is the superior method and system. Have fun with that.

wizanda · May 28, 2017

rosends said:
yours is the superior method and system

It isn't superior, there isn't even any such thing in my logic; don't mind questioning everything, if it means properly understanding it, which is why sometimes it is infuriating, when trying to share the findings, and everyone is like we follow our traditions before any other form of logic.

rosends said:
You will continue to dismiss what doesn't work for you

Don't really dismiss anything, it is all evidence... Plus find it illogical to do so.

rosends said:
and all I had to do was parrot exactly what you wrote to me. Except when it is said to you, it somehow doesn't apply.

Yes, because generally try to explain things to help people, and speaking from the soul; so when the ego heard it, it reflects back what it thinks the projections of the other ego were...

Which is why it falls on deaf ears, as not trying to get my own back; trying to help people learn through civil debate, some of the misconstrued concepts before the Day of the Lord.

Desert Snake · May 28, 2017

rosends said:
That's nice of you to opine, but your whole premise is wrong. You are so quick to the spoils -- so desperate to justify your belief that you lose track of the actual text, especially when you study it in pieces and translation.

Non-Messianic xianity is pretty much unscriptural, and doesnt make sense. Jesus Himself speaks not only of His role in Messianism, but of another who is to come. People are either ignoring their Bibles, or misinterpreting text.

Muffled · May 30, 2017

Flankerl said:
Too bad he's dead though.

I believe that s a prime example of fantasy. Haveyou gone where He went and witnessed his death? Do yo know anyone who did that? Have you ever had a word from the spirit world that the person witnessed His death?

I believe all we have to go on are the words of the angels that He will return, passages telling of His return and Paul's concept that He already has an eternal life body like the one believers will get.

roger1440 · May 30, 2017

Muffled said:
I believe that s a prime example of fantasy. Haveyou gone where He went and witnessed his death? Do yo know anyone who did that? Have you ever had a word from the spirit world that the person witnessed His death?

I believe all we have to go on are the words of the angels that He will return, passages telling of His return and Paul's concept that He already has an eternal life body like the one believers will get.

There is a better chance that Chucky will be back then Jesus.

How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

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