What are the best arguments in favor of theism and against atheism?

ChristineM · May 19, 2017

Segev Moran said:
What if this primal cause was actually zeus?
What if it was an eternal stone?
Or maybe one atom?
What if we are robots in a robotic world that is billions of years old?
What if we are bits and bites of code programmed to expand the code?

There are so many possibilities, i really can't understand why the primal cause idea is the only one that has a 100% certainty prediction?

One atom triggered a memory, i was reading a Richard Feynman article, he related a phone call he received from John Wheeler. Wheeler said something along the lines that all electrons have the same charge and the same mass because they are all the same electron everywhere at once throughout the universe and time.

Ben Avraham · May 20, 2017

Segev Moran said:
How do you know? By the entity? Would you consider the universe itself as a primal cause? In order to admit something, you have to be certain of it. I cannot admit what i don't know. It will be like me asking you to admit you are a person who wants to be a Scientologist.

No, the Universe itself is the entity caused by the Primal Cause. I use Logic to prove that the Primal Cause caused the Universe to exist. Therefore, I am certain. When we don't know something, we ask questions; we don't question. There is a big difference between asking questions or questioning the views of others.

There are several ideas. So far, only two are seriously studied. I wish i could be the one to find the answer to that question. But to make a long story short... i don't know what caused the universe to exist. What about what i said was negative?

Use Logic to find out. For instance, could the Universe have caused itself to exist? Impossible. For it to have caused itself to exist, it had to exist to do so. Since it already existed, it is only obvious that there would be no need to further cause itself to exist. This is Logic.

Again, how do you know? How can you possibly know what the non-material universe is like? Thanks. Please explain what "everything" is. do you mean everything that we will ever discover and that ever exists, existed, will exists, every material or non material thing, every energy, dimension, atom and so on?

Do you believe in the world of the mind? That's a non-material realm. The Universe is to be studied by those in the possession of a mind. That's the role of man in the Universe.

If so, please explain what you mean again by universe? as the definition of universe in science is regarding the currently known universe. We don't know what lies behind it, if it will be a process that runs in parallel to us, it will be considered a separate universe. Is this the case? or you mean multiverse as a whole one universe? same can be said about divinity, holiness, spiritual etc, with the exception that one has a valid basis, and the second does not.

The Primal Cause lies behind and outside the Universe which means everything aka the process that man in his possession of a mind can use to evolve his learning.

To our own small universe maybe. Not the entire whatever there is out there. And again, how do you know? Some studies recorded atoms popping into existence in a complete vacuum. There might be a cause for them to pop, there might not. we don't really know. Maybe there is something so small that creates atoms, but we cant see it yet? Maybe there is something weird and atoms can pop in and out from existent? Maybe atoms are "locked" in our universe and teleport themselves all over the universe?

There is no such a thing as small or big universe. The Universe is every thing that there is. Atoms are subject to matter. Man makes use of matter to produce atoms for instance, like in an X-Ray machine to produce photons in a vacuum to cause an image of matter in a film. All subject to matter, which is the main characteristic of the Universe.

There are many things that might be, and we still have a far way to go to understand them. seems like you know for a fact things that the most brilliant minds in the history of humanity couldn't find the answer to yet. What if this primal cause was actually zeus? What if it was an eternal stone? Or maybe one atom? What if we are robots in a robotic world that is billions of years old? What if we are bits and bites of code programmed to expand the code?

I am aware that we have all our lives to learn what there is to learn in the Universe and, empty speculations will take us nowhere. I see above, you speculate about the possibility of Zeus. The Primal Cause has nothing to do with religions. Billions of years old! This is to admit an age for the Universe. Age of things is an evidence of a beginning; and beginning is an evidence of the Primal Cause.

There are so many possibilities, i really can't understand why the primal cause idea is the only one that has a 100% certainty prediction? Can you post a link please? Which law? which problems? interesting...if it granted us with free will, it means that it must have a free will also. (if not, how could it have granted us free will (unless commanded by the it who controls it)?) so this means, the one of two must have happened: it gave us a duplication of the free will it have.

Because, without the Primal Cause, we would not be here discussing the existence of the Universe. The link you ask to post is the thread. Can you read it please? The problems are those of our lives and, the law is the one of cause and effect. If we don't have Freewill, we will be no different from the irrational animal. Freewill is commanded only by ourselves.

which in this case, our will is not really free as it is the free will of it and not us. or it shared us with its own free will in this case, it means we share the "substance" of free will as it. if that is true, it means every sick thought someone might have, is actually a thought of it. this also raises a question: is free will limited? if it had to share the free will with us, this must mean it couldn't create more of it, so it must contain all the free will there is.

Please, show me what you mean by will not being really free? And Freewill is not limited. It is an absolute reality in man.

I bet that was a shocker to most people so the primal cause just created us and left us be? Please elaborate. Lol... i wasn't a christian. And although i am jewish, i am not a religious (nor was i) jewish. I was however, very spiritual and "new age" I was filled with divinity and had great life and how can you be disappointed with beliefs?

Because the religious ones usually make use of their Freewill to exploit the disingenuous among them with the intent to make a living.

ChristineM · May 20, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
No, the Universe itself is the entity caused by the Primal Cause. I use Logic to prove that the Primal Cause caused the Universe to exist. Therefore, I am certain

No, you don't use logic, you use opinion of the most uninformed kind and justify it by claiming logic. Logic (and fact! would dictate that in the very early stage's of the universe condition's were such that no human logic based on todays condition's would be valid.

We have had this discussion before and it seems you ignore the fact of casualty as we know it did not exist. So if causality did not exist until after the event how could the universe be caused before causality?

I think your certainty can better be described as in credulity

Segev Moran · May 20, 2017

ChristineM said:
One atom triggered a memory, i was reading a Richard Feynman article, he related a phone call he received from John Wheeler. Wheeler said something along the lines that all electrons have the same charge and the same mass because they are all the same electron everywhere at once throughout the universe and time.

interesting

Segev Moran · May 20, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
No, the Universe itself is the entity caused by the Primal Cause.

Sp the primal cause already had all the material universe in it?

I use Logic to prove that the Primal Cause caused the Universe to exist. Therefore, I am certain. When we don't know something, we ask questions; we don't question. There is a big difference between asking questions or questioning the views of others.

There are things i understand, and things i do not. I usually as questions about things i don't understand.
If you call that questioning your pov, than i am guilty

sorry if that makes you feel bad in any way.

Use Logic to find out.

Great

For instance, could the Universe have caused itself to exist? Impossible. For it to have caused itself to exist, it had to exist to do so. Since it already existed, it is only obvious that there would be no need to further cause itself to exist.

Yet on the primal cause, this logic doesn't apply?

For instance, could the Primal Casue have caused itself to exist? Impossible. For it to have caused itself to exist, it had to exist to do so. Since it already existed, it is only obvious that there would be no need to further cause itself to exist.

This is Logic.

Indeed.

Do you believe in the world of the mind? That's a non-material realm. The Universe is to be studied by those in the possession of a mind. That's the role of man in the Universe.

What do you mean the universe of the mind?

The Primal Cause lies behind and outside the Universe which means everything aka the process that man in his possession of a mind can use to evolve his learning.

hmm

There is no such a thing as small or big universe. The Universe is every thing that there is.

With the exclusion of the Primal Cause of course

Atoms are subject to matter.

or matter is subject to atoms

Man makes use of matter to produce atoms for instance,

Nope, we know how to manipulate atoms, not create them.

like in an X-Ray machine to produce photons in a vacuum to cause an image of matter in a film. All subject to matter, which is the main characteristic of the Universe.

See above

I am aware that we have all our lives to learn what there is to learn in the Universe and, empty speculations will take us nowhere. I see above, you speculate about the possibility of Zeus. The Primal Cause has nothing to do with religions. Billions of years old! This is to admit an age for the Universe. Age of things is an evidence of a beginning; and beginning is an evidence of the Primal Cause.

Sorry, you lost me here

Because, without the Primal Cause, we would not be here discussing the existence of the Universe. The link you ask to post is the thread. Can you read it please? The problems are those of our lives and, the law is the one of cause and effect. If we don't have Freewill, we will be no different from the irrational animal. Freewill is commanded only by ourselves.

Animals have "free will" unless it is "taken" by humans.
It is shame you believe otherwise.

Please, show me what you mean by will not being really free? And Freewill is not limited. It is an absolute reality in man.

Based on your argument, we are bound to be able to do only what the primal cause wished us to be able to do, yet clearly in nature we see there are far more capabilities that humans lack.

It will be like saying birds choose to fly and not swim in the ocean.
So in that case, birds have no real free will...

If the primal cause wanted you to have free will, why would it restrict you in your abilities? why cant we choose our own physical form? why cant i will myself to be shorter for example?

Because the religious ones usually make use of their Freewill to exploit the disingenuous among them with the intent to make a living.

Agreed

Ben Avraham · May 24, 2017

Segev Moran said:
Sp the primal cause already had all the material universe in it?

Yes but, after the Primal Cause caused the Universe to begin or to exist, the command according to the Tanach was to grow and multiply in the case of man, and to expand, in the case of matter(Gen. 1:28)

There are things i understand, and things i do not. I usually as questions about things i don't understand. If you call that questioning your pov, than i am guilty; sorry if that makes you feel bad in any way.

A question never makes me feel bad, unless it is too obvious in the sense of a joke.

Yet on the primal cause, this logic doesn't apply? For instance, could the Primal Cause have caused itself to exist? Impossible. For it to have caused itself to exist, it had to exist to do so. Since it already existed, it is only obvious that there would be no need to further cause itself to exist.

Very good! You are learning, I see!

What do you mean the universe of the mind?

The non-physical realm of the Universe.

or matter is subject to atoms. Nope, we know how to manipulate atoms, not create them.

To my understanding, atoms are subject to matter. The command in Genesis 1:28 was to learn how to manipulate the Universe.

Animals have "free will" unless it is "taken" by humans. It is shame you believe otherwise.

Animals have instinct, not Freewill. Freewill is of the realm of the mind.

Based on your argument, we are bound to be able to do only what the primal cause wished us to be able to do, yet clearly in nature we see there are far more capabilities that humans lack.

That's absolutely not true. Rather the opposite is true. We humans have all the right in the world to do whatever we please. If it is according to the Law, all will go well, if it is against the Law, we must be punished for behaving against nature.

It will be like saying birds choose to fly and not swim in the ocean. So in that case, birds have no real free will...

Birds are irrational animals without Freewill. So, they live according to their instinct.

If the primal cause wanted you to have free will, why would it restrict you in your abilities? why cant we choose our own physical form? why cant i will myself to be shorter for example?

The Primal Cause did grant Freewill to humans but it is up to us to use it as we please. According to the Genesis allegory of Creation, Cain was deeply upset at Abel and was planning what to do against him to feel better. The Lord appeared to him in a dream and said to Cain: "Why are you distressed and why is your face fallen? Surely if you do right, there is uplift. But if you do not do right, sin crouches at the door; its urge is toward you, yet you can be its master." It means that Freewill could not be contradicted even by the Primal Cause for it was up to man to use it as he pleased. (Genesis 4:6,7)

ChristineM · May 24, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Yes but, after the Primal Cause caused the Universe to begin or to exist, the command according to the Tanach was to grow and multiply in the case of man, and to expand, in the case of the physical Universe. (Genesis 1:28)

A question never makes me feel bad, unless it is too obvious in the sense of a joke.

Very good! You are learning, I see!

The non-physical realm of the Universe.

To my understanding, atoms are subject to matter. The command in Genesis 1:28 was to learn how to manipulate the Universe.

Animals have instinct, not Freewill. Freewill is of the realm of the mind.

That's absolutely not true. Rather the opposite is true. We humans have all the right in the world to do whatever we please. If it is according to the Law, all will go well, if it is against the Law, we must be punished for behaving against nature.

Birds are irrational animals without Freewill. So, they live according to their instinct.

The Primal Cause did grant Freewill to humans but it is up to us to use it as we please. According to the Genesis allegory of Creation, Cain was deeply upset at Abel and was planning what to do to against him to feel better. The Lord appeared to him in a dream and said to Cain: "Why are you distressed and why is your face fallen? Surely if you do right, there is uplift. But if you do not do right, sin crouches at the door; its urge is toward you, yet you can be its master." It means that Freewill could not be contradicted even by the Primal Cause for it was up to man to use it as he pleased. (Genesis 4:6,7)

Animals have minds, its what happens when they get a functional brain

Animals have no such laws, they rely on "instinct" to plan their hunting strategy

Can I assume from your bird comment that you have never actually studied bird behavior?

Segev Moran · May 24, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Yes but, after the Primal Cause caused the Universe to begin or to exist, the command according to the Tanach was to grow and multiply in the case of man, and to expand, in the case of matter(Gen. 1:28)

So the material can "outgrow" the primal cause? or does the primal cause expands as the material expands?

A question never makes me feel bad, unless it is too obvious in the sense of a joke.

I do not make joke of people's ideas. I do however sometimes use a bit of humor(ish). at times one might take it personally from reasons i cannot understand

so i am sorry if it happened with you.

Very good! You are learning, I see!

Lol. now who is making jokes ?

The non-physical realm of the Universe.
non-physical can mean a lot of things. can you please elaborate?
how do you know how something non-physical acts like?

To my understanding, atoms are subject to matter.

Click to expand...

no they are not.

The command in Genesis 1:28 was to learn how to manipulate the Universe.

Click to expand...

no it is not.

Animals have instinct, not Freewill.

Click to expand...

So do we.
The difference is we can describe those instincts.

Freewill is of the realm of the mind.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by mind?
Do you suggest insects don't have a mind? if not, how do you know?
It seems as if you claim that all insects will act the exact same way to the same event.
(they will not)

That's absolutely not true. Rather the opposite is true. We humans have all the right in the world to do whatever we please.

Click to expand...

Who gave you the right to slaughter animals for the sake of fun?

If it is according to the Law, all will go well, if it is against the Law, we must be punished for behaving against nature.

Click to expand...

We will be punished for behaving against nature, but god has god nothing to do with that. nature does.

Birds are irrational animals without Freewill. So, they live according to their instinct.

Click to expand...

can you give an example of a behavior of a bird that is irrational?
I would suggest that animals are nothing but rational.
saying a bird has no freewill is very wrong.
a bird can choose to fly or to rest.
it can choose to "sing" or not.
birds are not robots that act the exact same way.
if it was so, you could predict in a 100% success rate the way a bird will behave to a specific event.
you can only estimate based on the specie's behavior, the same as you can do with humans.

The Primal Cause did grant Freewill to humans but it is up to us to use it as we please. According to the Genesis allegory of Creation, Cain was deeply upset at Abel and was planning what to do against him to feel better. The Lord appeared to him in a dream and said to Cain: "Why are you distressed and why is your face fallen? Surely if you do right, there is uplift. But if you do not do right, sin crouches at the door; its urge is toward you, yet you can be its master." It means that Freewill could not be contradicted even by the Primal Cause for it was up to man to use it as he pleased. (Genesis 4:6,7)

Click to expand...

what is a free will? and how do you know it is free?

Ben Avraham · May 25, 2017

Segev Moran said:
So the material can "outgrow" the primal cause? or does the primal cause expands as the material expands?

I do not make joke of people's ideas. I do however sometimes use a bit of humor(ish). at times one might take it personally from reasons i cannot understand so i am sorry if it happened with you.

Lol. now who is making jokes ?

No, the material cannot outgrow the Primal Cause. And the Primal Cause does not change.

syo · May 26, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
It does? Which answers?

answers to life's problems and mysteries

syo · May 26, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Neither does Ohm's Law. So what?

Or they'll give you an answer from some other aspect of their life. Why do you think that life purpose requires a god?

life purpose requires god to guide us and have morals.

syo · May 26, 2017

LuisDantas said:
That is not really an argument for theism, given the quality and worth of those answers, though.

that's a HUGE issue, since people may corrupt religion

9-10ths_Penguin · May 26, 2017

syo said:
answers to life's problems and mysteries

Such as?

I can think of plenty "life's problems and mysteries" but I want to know the specific ones that you think that theism answers.

For instance, I don't think that theism has any answers to life problems like "how should a diabetic manage his blood sugar?" ... but I'm not going to assume that this is what you meant.

9-10ths_Penguin · May 26, 2017

syo said:
life purpose requires god to guide us and have morals.

What do morals have to do with gods?

So you're saying that without a god, we can't have a life purpose? Sorry, but this seems as ridiculous as saying that without being told what your profession will be by a king, you won't be able to pick a career.

syo · May 26, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Such as?

I can think of plenty "life's problems and mysteries" but I want to know the specific ones that you think that theism answers.

For instance, I don't think that theism has any answers to life problems like "how should a diabetic manage his blood sugar?" ... but I'm not going to assume that this is what you meant.

I mean about the unknown, the spiritual, philosophical questions and morality and ethics

9-10ths_Penguin · May 26, 2017

syo said:
I mean about the unknown, the spiritual, philosophical questions and morality and ethics

And they are...?

syo · May 26, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
What do morals have to do with gods?

So you're saying that without a god, we can't have a life purpose? Sorry, but this seems as ridiculous as saying that without being told what your profession will be by a king, you won't be able to pick a career.

if morals change continually based on points of view then we are doomed. for example, 10 people have 10 opposing morals then there will be conflict whose morals will prevail

syo · May 26, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
And they are...?

for example why are we created?

9-10ths_Penguin · May 26, 2017

syo said:
if morals change continually based on points of view then we are doomed. for example, 10 people have 10 opposing morals then there will be conflict whose morals will prevail

If we can have intelligent discussions about the basis of our morality and adjust our positions based on new information, this is a good thing, not a weakness.

OTOH, 10 theists who all think their moral code was handed down from God but disagree on what that code says are bound for conflict and trouble.

9-10ths_Penguin · May 26, 2017

syo said:
for example why are we created?

I was created because my parents wanted to have a child.

It seems that answering this question didn't need a god at all.

What are the best arguments in favor of theism and against atheism?

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