• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is God Observable?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don't understand your question.

G-d can't be defined by human language, eternity and infinity are beyond our human comprehension. We can only say what G-d isn't.

The only thing I see exist when you talk about god is the placeholder or noun G-d.

But if you don't know what or who god is, then that's like placing attributes and characteristics on someone you haven't even met in person.

You can't describe him nor give him a definition, but then say he exist and is eternal; can you see the contradiction?

You are describing someone you say you can't define. How do you know god is eternal if you can't define him?
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
The only thing I see exist when you talk about god is the placeholder or noun G-d.

But if you don't know what or who god is, then that's like placing attributes and characteristics on someone you haven't even met in person.

You can't describe him nor give him a definition, but then say he exist and is eternal; can you see the contradiction?

You are describing someone you say you can't define. How do you know god is eternal if you can't define him?

The contradiction is within your statements. You start off with saying that you must use your eyes to view G-d. And continue to define a god as something that you can see or describe. But the G-d of Judaism is without physical form. So that's a non-starter.

G-d is undefinable, that's pretty much the Jewish definition of that word, 'A being without definition'. If a definition was applicable to G-d, then it would limit Him. There would exist something that is not G-d, a border. But we know that G-d is eternal and infinite. So to have limitations, borders, or definitions is not possible for our infinite and eternal G-d.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The contradiction is within your statements. You start off with saying that you must use your eyes to view G-d. And continue to define a god as something that you can see or describe. But the G-d of Judaism is without physical form. So that's a non-starter.

I said "The only thing I see exist when you talk about god is the placeholder or noun G-d." In other words, outside of using the placeholder word G-d, I can't see (idiom for cannot understand clearly) how that is possible.

This is from my observation of your post. I don't use the word god and I define it differently than other god-believers do regardless if they are Hindu or Christian or Jew or Pagan.

God, the term, is just an object or person of worship. However, you are saying god is eternal. I assume he has other characteristics to in the Torah but then you say god is undefinable.

So I said you are describing someone (eternal, all powerful, for example) you cannot define. Do you see the contradiction in that statement?

G-d is undefinable, that's pretty much the Jewish definition of that word, 'A being without definition'. If a definition was applicable to G-d, then it would limit Him. There would exist something that is not G-d, a border. But we know that G-d is eternal and infinite. So to have limitations, borders, or definitions is not possible for our infinite and eternal G-d.

If god is undefinable, how do you know he is eternal and infiniate?

Also, if god has no definition of him whatsoever, how can you say he even exists? It's like saying your friend exist on the other side of the world but you can't give her a name (I understand that), can't describe her as a human being, but still can say she has long hair and has a cheerful aura.

Do you see the contradiction in knowing how to describe a god you say is undescribable by definition?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Are you mixing up posts? Or maybe am I? I am not advocating for a specific god....I am not advocating for any kind of god at all.

Many words have multiple meanings, since it is the people using the words that assign meaning, that is true.

What are alternate definitions of the two words infinite and eternal? As I understand them, infinite means essentially unending especially in measure.....infinitely large, infinitely long, etc.

As far as eternal, something can be eternal without being infinite, can it not? Yes, it will exist for an infinite time, but the thing that exists is not infinite. It may have specific dimensions that are measurable. There may be a finite amount of energy and matter that always exists, therefore it is eternal but not infinite, right?

Also, the wiki article says energy is eternal for our universe, not independently eternal. It is presumptuous to say our universe will last for infiniti. If our universe ends, then energy will end within it, is this not so?


eternal is endless


infinite is limitless


anything with a beginning has an end and vice versa. anything limitelles, endless, infinite, eternal has no beginning, or ending.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
If a tree fell with no one around, would it make a noise? Must because you don't observe a God doesn't mean you couldn't.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
God, the term, is just an object or person of worship. However, you are saying god is eternal. I assume he has other characteristics to in the Torah but then you say god is undefinable.

G-d is not an object or a person. G-d displays attributes, but doesn't have characteristics.

One attribute is that G-d is the First existence. Nothing precedes G-d. No matter how far back in time we go for explanations, one can always ask "What came before that?". As long as the cause is a finite cause, we can always ask 'what came before that'.

Another attribute is that G-d is Eternal, which refers to all time backwards or forwards from our human perspective. Because G-d was never brought into being, nothing can bring G-d out of being. G-d existed before Time was Created, thus logically G-d is not subject to time.

So I said you are describing someone (eternal, all powerful, for example) you cannot define. Do you see the contradiction in that statement?

No, the contradiction is in your belief that an infinite being can be defined. To be infinite is to be without borders or parameters. All human descriptions are limiting, they define what is and what is not.

Judaism teaches that there is no way that we can comprehend a reality that transcends the framework of Creation. Our very existence starts with G-d's desire (G-d doesn't really have desire, but I'm limited to human language) to create the world. However, G-d transcends the Creation. Any description that we attempt to offer of G-d will come from our human reality and therefore will be inappropriate and inaccurate.

Our sages know that we cannot comprehend G‑d in a direct manner. Accordingly, we resort to abstraction, using negative understanding. We set our limits and definitions and explain how G‑d transcends those bounds and restrictions.

If god is undefinable, how do you know he is eternal and infiniate?

This knowledge is from Torah and all our writings. G-d is termed Bal Tachlis -- He is not bound in any way. This doesn't just mean that His powers are not limited in any way, but, more deeply, that we cannot contrast G-d with any experience known to humanity. No amount of comparison, illustration, or metaphor will bring His reality closer to our understanding. He is simply Ein Sof -- indefinable, period.

Suppose we describe a person (e.g. Bill Gates) as being infinitely wealthy. He could never spend all he's got. But next year, his stock portfolio could grow and he would be even wealthier. That doesn't work with true infinity. You can't add anything to infinity to make it larger.

Also, if god has no definition of him whatsoever, how can you say he even exists?

G-d presented Himself to the entire nation of Israel, we had a national revelation. Although G-d is undefinable, He has created a place (the universe) in which we can interact with Him. From here (our human existence), we can perceive our relationship with G-d, as opposed to understanding G-d Himself.

Also, if god has no definition of him whatsoever, how can you say he even exists? It's like saying your friend exist on the other side of the world but you can't give her a name (I understand that), can't describe her as a human being, but still can say she has long hair and has a cheerful aura.

It seems to me that all of your writing is just crying out for a physical god. Your analogy doesn't work, since your friend is finite and has characteristics. Your friend has long hair and is cheerful. That means that your friend is not bald and is not morose. There are things that your friend isn't, so your friend isn't infinite.
G-d is everywhere and everytime.

By definition, an infinite being can not be defined.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
if god is love, then the action of loving is observable?
If God is love, what is the point of even having the term "God". Why can't it just be love is love?

If you believe in God, and God is love, then you just believe in love by another name, right?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
If God is love, what is the point of even having the term "God". Why can't it just be love is love?

If you believe in God, and God is love, then you just believe in love by another name, right?

current language isn't necessarily going to be a one to one relationship with an ancient language. oral and written languages aren't explicit like mathematical language.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
current language isn't necessarily going to be a one to one relationship with an ancient language. oral and written languages aren't explicit like mathematical language.
My point is that if God is love, what is the point of the term "God"? Also, if God is love, and love cannot create matter, doesn't that exclude God being the creator?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
My point is that if God is love, what is the point of the term "God"? Also, if God is love, and love cannot create matter, doesn't that exclude God being the creator?

matter isn't created. matter takes different forms of symmetry, or forms, but it isn't created. the bible doesn't state that matter is created. in fact, it implies that matter has a liquid, or state of plasticity; if anything.

genesis 1:2 implies this in the idea of waters.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
matter isn't created. matter takes different forms of symmetry, or forms, but it isn't created. the bible doesn't state that matter is created. in fact, it implies that matter has a liquid, or state of plasticity; if anything.

genesis 1:2 implies this in the idea of waters.
So, God didn't create the universe then?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You are defining god by his attributes (his characteristics) but then you're saying he can't be defined. You say god exists. Then you say he is unknown able. You say god is not an object when god is a term that means a person or object of worship. (Anything of worship). You define god by what the Torah says yet you don't acknowledge any other god that, by each religion's definition is different than yours.
G-d is not an object or a person. G-d displays attributes, but doesn't have characteristics.

God is an object or person of worship. His attributes are his characteristics. These things define him.

One attribute is that G-d is the First existence. Nothing precedes G-d. No matter how far back in time we go for explanations, one can always ask "What came before that?". As long as the cause is a finite cause, we can always ask 'what came before that'.

If god cannot be defined, this is just what you read. It can't be fact unless you know him to define him. You can't talk about a god you cant define.

It is like you're giving me attributes/characteristics of an invisible object in my hand, and when I say what is the object, you say it's invisible and can't be defined.

So, I ask. What is the attributes/characteristics based on if god is unknowable?

No, the contradiction is in your belief that an infinite being can be defined. To be infinite is to be without borders or parameters. All human descriptions are limiting, they define what is and what is not.

It is not a contradiction. It is a difference in beliefs. I do not believe in a being. What you are talking about is like putting clothes on a person that does not exist. Then falling in love with the person that no one can't see and because this person is unknowable, for some reason the mystery earns worship that no physical god is worthy of.

Judaism teaches that there is no way that we can comprehend a reality that transcends the framework of Creation. Our very existence starts with G-d's desire (G-d doesn't really have desire, but I'm limited to human language) to create the world. However, G-d transcends the Creation. Any description that we attempt to offer of G-d will come from our human reality and therefore will be inappropriate and inaccurate.

Our sages know that we cannot comprehend G‑d in a direct manner. Accordingly, we resort to abstraction, using negative understanding. We set our limits and definitions and explain how G‑d transcends those bounds and restrictions.

That is weird. There are other religions who know god directly. I dont understand the meaning of how you have a personal god that can't be personal enough for you to know him directly.

This knowledge is from Torah and all our writings. G-d is termed Bal Tachlis -- He is not bound in any way. This doesn't just mean that His powers are not limited in any way, but, more deeply, that we cannot contrast G-d with any experience known to humanity. No amount of comparison, illustration, or metaphor will bring His reality closer to our understanding. He is simply Ein Sof -- indefinable, period.

If human words are limiting, wouldn't the authors of the Torah be limited in what they write or are they equal to god?

Suppose we describe a person (e.g. Bill Gates) as being infinitely wealthy. He could never spend all he's got. But next year, his stock portfolio could grow and he would be even wealthier. That doesn't work with true infinity. You can't add anything to infinity to make it larger.

G-d presented Himself to the entire nation of Israel, we had a national revelation. Although G-d is undefinable, He has created a place (the universe) in which we can interact with Him. From here (our human existence), we can perceive our relationship with G-d, as opposed to understanding G-d Himself.

God is undefinable. How he can do anything if you don't know anything about him? That's a contradiction in terms. You can't make an statement about someone if you don't know anything about him. Unless you know him and don't know him at the same time.

It seems to me that all of your writing is just crying out for a physical god. Your analogy doesn't work, since your friend is finite and has characteristics. Your friend has long hair and is cheerful. That means that your friend is not bald and is not morose. There are things that your friend isn't, so your friend isn't infinite.

LOLOL OOh gosh. That's what all Abrahamics say. I never knew a god since birth. Never was religious. Never was indoctrinated. Never heard about god till I was 16. Never knew about spirituality until 31. Never understood the nature of god (the reality of him) until almost recently.

Then a light bulb poped in my head when my grandmother passed away. The spirits my family believed and the spirits I believe now became a central part of my life. I did not need to look for god. There is no definition of god in the abrahamic world to look for.

So what you say makes no sense whatsoever.

You have to see it from my shoes before assuming my goals and questions. It makes this post really one-sided.

G-d is everywhere and everytime.

How do you know when you can't define him?

By definition, an infinite being can not be defined.

How do you know its infinite if it can't be defined?

This is a contradiction statement. It does not need to be religious in nature. It's just how the English language works.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
It is not a contradiction. It is a difference in beliefs. I do not believe in a being.

I was going to reply to your entire illogical post, but then I noticed this. I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to convert you to my beliefs. I don't care what you believe, you can stick with your beliefs and be just fine. I was just responding to your question asking how can G-d be undefinable. Asked and answered, so I will stop here.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
So, God didn't create the universe then?


creating doesn't require the creation of matter. forms are not the same as matter. matter can take a form but it doesn't have a fixed form. this is why forms are illusory and we observe actions as a result.

note the word created means to form, or shape, in genesis 1:1

the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon states that it means to carve out, or cut out; which implies that something is used to form, shape, create it from.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I was going to reply to your entire illogical post, but then I noticed this. I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to convert you to my beliefs. I don't care what you believe, you can stick with your beliefs and be just fine. I was just responding to your question asking how can G-d be undefinable. Asked and answered, so I will stop here.

I do care what others believe. I value answers based on experiences. Thats what god is, if I used the term or word. Its our experiences and acting in gratitude with self, our community, and environment. There isnt anything mystical about god.

I honestly dont understand how being unknown makes othe unknownable thing worthy of worship.

Why is a mystery more important than wisdom?

Why is the invisible more sacres than the visible?

I personally cant say I care less about someones belief. Religion is a part of who that person is. When I care less about the religion, I care less about the person who believes it.

I learned a lot about spirituality. When I found what it was, god, human nature, etc then it made me feel more connected with life. It goes beyond one individual faith. Its a devotion to living. Being inquisitive and creative and just me.

I ask god questions because Im facinated by belief in something thats real that is not real. Without traditions, Id think people were nuts. But thats not me.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
creating doesn't require the creation of matter. forms are not the same as matter. matter can take a form but it doesn't have a fixed form. this is why forms are illusory and we observe actions as a result.

note the word created means to form, or shape, in genesis 1:1

the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon states that it means to carve out, or cut out; which implies that something is used to form, shape, create it from.
What forms did God create? Are you saying that he shaped the planets and stars, for example?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Last edited:

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
eternal is endless


infinite is limitless


anything with a beginning has an end and vice versa. anything limitelles, endless, infinite, eternal has no beginning, or ending.

Ah the joys of wordplay!
Ever taken an online thesaurus and started with one word and kept looking up synonyms of synonyms until you got a completely different meaning? It's fun.

But yeah, there are subtle differences between seemingly similar words.

Eternal refers to time.
Infinite refers to quantity.

We could say that the amount of energy in the universe is finite, but that it will always be there in one form or another (at least according to our current physical understanding of it).
 
Top