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The Divinity of Christ

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
I believe this is a false conclusion because it does not follow from the premise.

I believe this is true to an extent. It becomes irrelevant after the dichotomy occurs.

I believe the fact that Jesus is God in the flesh does not alter that fact.

I believe I know what is true and your statement is not.

I believe your concept is false. Jesus has a mind as any human does and it hears just as any human mind does but that does not alter the fact that God is in Jesus but only enhances the hearing to perfection. Therefore your conclusion is false because it is not God speaking to God but God speaking to man.

I believe this is similar to the concept that God can't talk to Himself (of course He can). God can serve Himself He certainly doesn't need another God to do it.

I believe again this is another false concept. God is always beside Himself because He is everywhere.

I believe when I stop laughing I may be able to respond to this inanity. Jesus is not the Christ of another God.

I believe next you will be telling me that the Spirit of God is another God because God is a Spirit. I don't believe you are capable of seeing how ridiculous your arguments are but for your information God can be whatever He wishes to be, messenger, high priest, warrior, healer, plaguer; the list goes on and on.

I don't believe you just tried to turn a metaphor into a God. I believe God is whatever He wants to be shepherd also, light of the world. When are you going to see the light?

I believe you try so hard in vain. There is one God who is Lord and Christ and He can make Himself anything He wishes.

I believe your conclusion is false because your premises are false.
jimmy-fallon-ew.gif


I believe you don't have a single bible verses to support your beliefs.

Your beliefs may be colorful on the outside but colorless in the inside.


OHHHHH!! I GOT IT!!!

Since I am a spirit that has a soul and live in a body.... I have THREE people!

GOT IT!! You make it so clear!!

:rolleyes::p:D

John 14:23-24 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

Jesus answered, “All who love me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them. My Father and I will come to them and live with them. But anyone who does not love me does not obey my teaching. This teaching that you hear is not really mine. It is from my Father who sent me.

upload_2017-5-24_7-39-35.jpeg


Colossians 1:19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

Ephesians 2:22
And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Acts 17:28
‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


and I don't need to interpret.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Did you find any parallel between Abraham, Sarah and Isaac?

For an example, that the request of the sacrifice of Isaac was on the same mountain where Jesus was crucified? I find so many parallels throughout the story.

I agree there are parallels, and I would go as far as to say the story prefigures the story of Christ. The story of how Abraham is asked by God to sacrifice His only son is extremely powerful, and prophetic. I presume you are seeing a similar parallel in the miraculous conception under seemingly impossible conditions.

I can understand. It certainly is fodder for the issue. And certainly anything can be made a god or gods. Even Moses's constructed rod with a serpent on it was made a god and had to be destroyed. I think it just comes back to the heart.

I respect your position and am understanding your POV. At some point, we may just stop sharing on this thread after we understand each others viewpoint.

This issue was settled for me when I understood that I was also a three-part being. Each part different and yet together one. But that was for me.
.

Do you mean body, mind, and soul?

The value of this thread for me, is that from he clash of differing opinions comes the spark of truth. I love to explore these type of issues from different perspectives and have no expectation that we will agree at the end of it. However if we hear each others perspective and why we believe that to be true. that is a sufficient goal. Although we would all like others to see the world as we do, my concern on RF is that we all take the opportunity to learn from each other.

As you have probably realised I have a POV that is at variance with conservative Christianity and I do have criticisms and concerns about this particular theology. However I believe in the same God, Jesus, and bible, along with a need to life an upright and holy life.

Thanks again for sharing.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So based on what both of us posted, the root of Jesse quote (Isaiah 11:1-2) is that Yeshua is of the same line as the House of David, making him the prophesied king they'd been expecting.

Yet this was an expectation by the masses based on the prophets saying the Messiah would be of the line of David....

When Yeshua was asked he quotes the Psalm saying, David calls him Lord...

David's Lord was YHVH, so therefore to me it makes sense Yeshua was saying that is who he is....

Everyone else with their own opinion of who he is, has muddied the water, and really doesn't know properly.

Isaiah 11:1-2 was certainly a key prophecy that highlighted a different set of beliefs that divided the Jews and Christians. The Jews expected a worldly King that would take on the Romans. Jesus was a spiritual King.

I believe we would agree that some Messianic prophecies do not refer to Jesus but His return. Jewish lineage was considered through the male descendants. The virgin birth story creates sufficient mystery and doubt about this particular prophecy being fulfilled. Could Isaiah 11:1-2 actually refer to second coming, rather than Jesus Himself? Would that undermine the allegory of the physical kingship prefiguring a spiritual one. I don't believe it would. It may actually enhance the spiritual dimension of Kingship. Interested to hear your thoughts.

In Dr Margret Barker's books, she explains this is why the early church has no problems with calling Yeshua Lord, and being the Son of the Most High, as that earlier knowledge was still common.

Since that time, there has been multiple religious theologies insisting on strict monotheism, and at the same time misunderstanding the Oneness of Heaven...

That all Elohim are only a representation from the God Most High (EL Elyon), all consciousness is one with the Most High, everything that exists only happens because the Most High (CPU) allows it. :innocent:

Do you have a link to Margaret Baker's writings? I'm comfortable with the titles Yeshua, Lord, Son of the Most High for Jesus.

Islam and Judaism share a much stricter view of monotheism which I support, but I wouldn't subscribe to their conservative theologies anymore than I would for Christianity. What do you mean by Oneness of heaven? You like to use the OT phrase Elohim a lot. Would you explain it to me please?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I’m enjoying our conversation also, and the one you’re having with Kens and others. It’s not every day you can have conversation like this. Thank you!

You're welcome. Thank you for participating.

Yes, all the writers of the canon were influenced by the Holy Spirit. However the Spirit knows how we speak and interpret language. If you’re going to give symbolic meaning to a passage there should be a good reason for it. It is never a first option because no human society can communicate intent that way. We would never have progressed or survived. Throwing out this rather well defined rule of interpreting language because it’s scripture is a classic example of special pleading.

Imagine the farmers and shopkeepers wondering and mulling what Paul Revere really meant by “The Red Coats are coming!”

Yet Jesus often spoke in a manner that confounded and perplexed even the most learned in His audience. Consider when the learned Nicodemus visited Jesus:

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

John 3:1-9

Do you think Jesus was speaking using the same approach to communication that we are? Nicodemus clearly struggled to understand.

How about John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

How should we understand John the Baptists' relationship with the OT prophet Elijah (Elias). If he was not Elijah then why did Jesus say he was? Malachi 4:5, Matthew 17:10-13, Mark 9:11-13

Sometimes the seemingly obvious obscures the truth. Should we call it spiritual blindness?

We should interpret “seventy times….” consistently just as we interpret “seven times…” consistently. I see no reason to take seventy times literally while taking seventy times symbolically. Nor do I see the need to take both symbolically without first attaching a literal meaning and determining if that literal meaning makes sense.

The approach one uses to interpret should be consistent rather than inconsistent. This would include a look at how the same terms are used by the author in other passages, or how other authors used them in scripture.

The phrase seven times seventy is a reference to a Messianic prophecy concerning Christ in the book of Daniel 9:24-27. Do you understand the prophecy and the significance of the phrase seven times seventy? Jesus also refers to this prophecy while speaking to His disciples on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24:15-16). Often sacred scripture has intrinsic spiritual meanings that the reader is oblivious to. Taking an literalist approach can make us blind to these hidden mysteries and contribute to spiritual blindness.

If we are to exegete this properly than we look not only at the words but also the verse in context, the same way we interpret anything else as either literal or figurative. I don’t see the need to make a special pleading for scripture.

I regards to Matthew 24:29 it is literally impossible for a star to fall from heaven to earth, as any star is much bigger than the earth and the earth would instantly be destroyed. Perhaps another way of considering these verses is figuratively. Therefore the sun, moon, and stars represent conditions in the heaven of God's religion. In the time of Christ these conditions were fulfilled in that through Judaism the light of Divine guidance had become dimmed, the Holy Teachings of Moses rather than enabling His followers to attain to God's good pleasure had become a burden to the people, and the spiritual teachers (like fallen stars) had become worldly and no longer representative of what Moses truly taught.

We could even say that their traditional understandings were like obscuring clouds presenting them from seeing Christ, even though His light was manifest in the heavenly realm with great power. Matthew 24:30

The times then are analogous to the current age. Jesus did urge us to be concerned with the signs of the times we were living in after all.

I’m taking your argument to its logical. deductive conclusion. No one claims the reflection in the pool is the perfect image of the sun. However you did claim Jesus is the “perfect reflection of the Divine attributes and virtues” of God.

I would argue that you are considering my words too literally. Of course Jesus was not a literally a reflection of God, as no man has seen God at any time. However Jesus assists us to see, or understand God's purpose. We are talking about spiritual insight.

The only reason we can view the sun for any length of time is because we can reflect the sun on water or paper or perhaps filter it through some other medium. like television. This makes the reflection imperfect, but useful for viewing. If the pool reflected the sun’s image perfectly we could no more look at the sun in the pool than we could at the sun in the sky. A mirror does not reflect all the attributes of the sun perfectly, but it does reflect enough attributes so that the sun’s image on the mirror is extremely difficult to view.

We are all created in the image of God. That does not mean we physically or literally look like God. It means we have the capacity to reflect in our lives the attributes God would want us to have as an assistance to ourselves and our fellow man. Jesus was the most perfect reflection of such attributes.

Your claim that Jesus cannot be God because no one has seen God at any time, while yet claiming Jesus is God’s “perfect reflection” is inconsistent. We would no more be able to view Jesus than we would God. The Trinity resolves this but I don’t see how your Christology does, except to say there is no need for reconciliation.

I hope I've adequately explained a different approach and the problem I see with the trinity. However I appreciate the trinity works for you and assists you. It does not however work for me and many others. That is fine to have a different perspective. The problem comes when conservative Christianity makes the claim that this is the only way to look at these scriptures, and the Bishops and Emperor Constantine that met in Nicea in 325 AD somehow reflected a deep spirituality that paralleled the Teachings of Christ and His apostles. I don't believe they did.

This particular denomination has already taken the liberty of criticizing Trinitarians earlier in this thread. Otherwise I would not have bothered.

I don't recall you telling me what denomination of Christianity you belong to, and it may not matter as what is at stake here is freedom of thought to explore scripture free from the restrictions of church dogma and doctrine. I'm pleased you are standing up for what you believe in and the Trinitarians as you are enabling an exploration of truth through the clash of differing opinions. Jesus did say after all 'seek and ye shall find' and 'the truth shall set you free.' Do the Trinitarians have that truth? That's one consideration and as well as to reflect on other approaches to contradictory scripture.

Yes, there is Divine mystery, but I don’t see how this precludes reconciliation.

If you study the book of Job, God talks to Jobs friends reminding them of His greatness and how little they know compared to His infinite Power and Wisdom. Humility is a divine attribute. The story of Tower of Babel is a myth that reminds man to know his limitations.

I disagree. We are called to testify (1 Peter 3:15, Acts 22:15). If our testimony is irreconcilable with our witness, how can anyone believe?

That's exactly the problem. In this modern age of science, history, and multiculturalism the conservative Christian narrative has lost its credibility. It may have worked once, but where I live (New Zealand) we are seeing an unparalleled decline in those who consider themselves Christian. Aspects of the Christian story are simply no longer plausible or credible in an age of science and reason.

Likewise if the bible is irreconcilable with its own account, how can anyone believe the testimony within?

Exactly.

Okay, let’s look at it again. I have Harry and Jane being distinct. I call them a married couple, and then say they are one. No matter how many times I say it I don’t see an "obvious contradiction".

What am I overlooking?

You sound content with your beliefs and faith as I am with mine. It may be the best we can do is hear each others perspectives. We are all spiritually blind. It is when we open our hearts and minds to God and have honest conversations with each other that we are more likely to gain a glimpse of the truth shall truly set us free.
 
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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Do you have a link to Margaret Baker's writings?
Someone mentioned her in a chat room, as she has a similar theology to my own; they recommended this book, which has what i was referring to, found a pdf of it online somewhere...

The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God: Amazon.co.uk: Margaret Barker

What do you mean by Oneness of heaven?
Within my NDE, Heaven is called Oneness; there is one Core, and many individual characters within it, yet everything is unified by the Oneness of all being focused on the same.

Thus when people get confused that there could be multiple Elohim in Heaven, and each is its own essence, both part of the CPU which manifests everything; yet also capable of coding reality.
You like to use the OT phrase Elohim a lot. Would you explain it to me please?
My definition of Elohim goes away from dictionaries, and uses my logic...

If EL is singular, and originally was applied to the God Most High (EL Elyon)...

Why then would a culture use a plural word, if they didn't need to...

Why cause such confusion, it makes no logical sense to me; as it seems more the Jews were trying to imply a stricter monotheism, after coming back from the Babylonian exile.

So to me, based on everything I'm aware of, the Elohim are Arch Angels, Avatars, and the Elders in Revelation...

Surrounding the Throne of God (EL), there are multiple ascended masters, Elohim, these created, and coded reality.

This why the Psalm 82:6 says we're all Elohim, as we're all fallen angels who have forgotten our origins.
The Jews expected a worldly King that would take on the Romans. Jesus was a spiritual King.
The Roman Empire still exists; we've still got Roman roads, taxes, Senate, same political families, government, religion, etc...

Why fight physically with an Empire much stronger than your own, if you have control of reality its self...

Thus in Revelation Rome is finally removed, along with all those who don't recognize its iniquities.
Could Isaiah 11:1-2 actually refer to second coming, rather than Jesus Himself?
If we read the whole context at the start of Isaiah 11, we see many prophetic statements that happen at the beginning of the Messianic age...

Thus it refers to Yeshua in both times, in his first appearance, he wasn't not of the line of David due to the Tribe he was born into, and as saying he is still of the root of Jesse metaphorically, if he was a reincarnation of David.
Would that undermine the allegory of the physical kingship prefiguring a spiritual one.
Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, "This is the word of Yahweh to Zerubbabel, saying, 'Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says Yahweh of Armies.

We're coming to a time where the warmongers are removed, and weapons are turned into farming tools; there is something wrong with people who want a warrior king, and don't recognize this can not fit.

Death is to be removed from the world.

Take into account that Melchizedek was both a King and High Priest, David performed both actions at times...

Within the Messianic age, God is making everyone priests, therefore the king shall be both. :innocent:
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe it does not say that but says the throne of David which is a physical throne on earth.

Here are some OT messianic prophecies referring to the King David.

And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

Ezekiel 34:23-24

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jeremiah 23:5

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Ezekiel 37:24-25

For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Jeremiah 30:8-9

Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.
Hosea 3:5

Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Isaiah 55:3

And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Isaiah 22:22

Some NT verses refer Jesus as being the son of David:

Jesus was addressed as 'Lord, thou son of David' several times. The woman whose daughter was being tormented by a demon:
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Matthew 15:22

The two blind men by the wayside cried out to the Son of David for help:
And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
Matthew 20:30

The Pharisees hated Jesus because He wouldn’t give them the honour they thought they deserved, so when they heard the people hailing Jesus as the Saviour, they became displeased:
And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased
Matthew 21:15

Jesus asked the Pharisees about the title:
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Mark 12:35, Psalms 110:1

There is no physical throne (unless you can demonstrate one) so it must figurative. If you have another explanation I'm happy to hear it.

I believe they mean what they say. Please try to point out a figure of speech if you can.

One definition of a figure of speech is: a word or phrase used in a non-literal sense for rhetorical or vivid effect. The point I've been making in regards to the Divinity of Christ is that the phrases son of man, Son of God, son of David all are figures of speech. Another example is being born again. We are not literally born again in emerge from our mother's womb but born of the spirit of Christ.

I believe this is an oft misunderstood verse. It does not mean there will be no flesh in The Kingdom of God.

If it is God's kingdom on earth, that is true. If it in the kingdom of heaven it doesn't make sense.

I believe you are still using the same definition of greatness you used before. Try rereading it with my definition.

Please define what you mean by greatness.

I believe it is due to the fact that people in general have not thought deeply on a metaphysical level.
Can you justify it using reason and scripture?

I believe I don't look at an apple and think it looks like an apple but I think it is an apple because I know apples. When I look at God in Jesus I don't say it is a reflection of the attributes of Jesus but I say it is God because I know God.
I appreciate that is your belief.

I believe then that you think a man can be as great as God. I don't agree; only God can be that great.
So why do think a man Jesus can be not only as great as God, but greater?

I believe I just finished watching the movie "Luther." In one scene Luther burns a paper representing an indulgence of the Church. The paper burned but the doctrine and belief stayed with the person who wrote it. That person being saved does not have his doctrine or belief burned in the fire but simply has it erased as all evil will be in the Kingdom of God.

The parable of the tares and the wheat was figurative. It is not that tares will be literally gathered up and burnt.

I believe real fire burns real things. There is nothing metaphoric about it.

I believe I would debate that it seems more like a nose dive than soaring. I had a day dream today that I was preaching and saying that a person may be saved and still suffer consequences for false beliefs. I believe the consequence of not believing in the Trinity is that God will not be pleased with you. That might not be so bad but I wouldn't want to be in that position.

That is for God alone to judge. I am sincere in my believe as you are in yours. I'm comfortable enough in what I believe to openly explore scripture and consider the truth.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello Adrian,

I have believed in God since about 2000, although sometimes I believed before. I got baptized into a lutheran church in 2008.

But currently I am more panentheistic and polytheistic as I also regard Zeus and Krishna and many others as active deities on Earth.

I've read through the entire bible mutliple times, but I am not a scholar. I don't know all too much about early church history.

God bless you much!

Good to have you here on RF @trablano and thank you for sharing. You do not need to be a scholar to be on RF. It is an opportunity to explore beliefs and ideas and for us all to learn.

It is very good that you have an interest in other religions and faiths. Krishna remains an powerful source of inspiration for many Hindu's.

The bible assumes, often wrongly, so many things about man. He is supposed to be pure evil since birth, does all kinds of wicked things all the time and before God man is not only sinful but doomed to eternal suffering in hell if he does not cowtow to Jesus.

The doctrine of the original sin and mans fall puts a rather negative view on humans. Fortunately it is a just a man made doctrine and I would argue has little to do with what the bible actually teaches.

I agree the whole fire and damnation narrative if you don't believe what the conservative Christians believe is extremely negative and stifles meaningful conversations. Once again, I would encourage you to distinguish what Christ taught, as opposed to what Christians believe.

Do you think the problem is with the bible, or man's understanding of the bible. I would argue that man's understanding of the bible has become far removed from what was taught so it is very difficult for many to remain faithful believers.

That's not fair and not right, and why I think the bible is a big forgery.

I don't believe the bible is a forgery at all, but our understanding has been corrupted over time. Who do you think would have forged it?

Some people knew that Jesus had a girlfriend and didn't want this to be known.

It is true we certainly know next to nothing about Christ's life before His ministry.

Idolatry is seen as worse than murder - what's wrong with seeing a god in an idol?

We need to consider that in the context of God trying to educate the Hebrew people several thousand years ago. God or Yahweh was trying to establish strict monotheism instead of the polytheism of surrounding religions.

We also have idols of Jesus, many different ones.

It certainly makes Christianity look polytheistic with all those idols and a triune God.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member



There are 30,000 to 40,000 denominations of mainstream Christianity.
And indeed it is polytheistic with the Triune God, that they even could not explain themselves
They have statues, rituals and practices adopted from paganism

These are the things Jesus Christ warned about:

[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+13:6&version=NIV']Mark 13:6[/URL]
Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.

[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+21:8&version=NIV']Luke 21:8[/URL]
He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them.

So the choice is for each individual to discern

Are the teachings found in the bible? Or the preacher himself could not even point his teaching in the Bible? Or the member just want to accept fanatically that his belief is true even not in the bible.

Who is Jesus Christ to him?
[LIST=1]
[*]Is he the Biblical Jesus?
[*]Is he the Niceaen Jesus?
[*]Is he the Mormon Jesus?
[*]Is he the Oneness Jesus?
[*]Is he the Once an Angel Jesus?
[*]Or another variety of Jesus?
[/LIST]
In the end, if we make the wrong choice, we ourselves would suffer the consequences for what we believed.

Matthew 7:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [B]Many will say to me on that day[/B], ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Even driving out demons in the name of Jesus
[ATTACH=full]17665[/ATTACH]

Healing people in the name of Jesus
[ATTACH=full]17664[/ATTACH]

At the end of all things, the Lord Jesus would say to them:
[ATTACH=full]17663[/ATTACH]
 

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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I agree there are parallels, and I would go as far as to say the story prefigures the story of Christ. The story of how Abraham is asked by God to sacrifice His only son is extremely powerful, and prophetic. I presume you are seeing a similar parallel in the miraculous conception under seemingly impossible conditions.
I sure do. For an example, when I see the ram caught in a thorny thicket bush with the horns on his head, I see various things. The thorns that the curse brought on in Genesis 3 and the thorn on the Crown of thorns on the head of Jesus. A figure of Jesus taking on the curse of sins.

Do you mean body, mind, and soul?

Actually, I think the soul is the mind, will and emotions. IMV there is a difference between the soul and spirit.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
II Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Although in context of scripture, it takes deep study to find out when it is speaking of the soul, when it is speaking of the spirit, and when it is speaking about both soul and spirit as one.

The value of this thread for me, is that from he clash of differing opinions comes the spark of truth. I love to explore these type of issues from different perspectives and have no expectation that we will agree at the end of it. However if we hear each others perspective and why we believe that to be true. that is a sufficient goal. Although we would all like others to see the world as we do, my concern on RF is that we all take the opportunity to learn from each other.
You don't know how refreshing this is to me.

No put downs and no contention. Just a sharing of viewpoints. If we leave with different views, we simply leave understanding each other a little better.

As you have probably realised I have a POV that is at variance with conservative Christianity and I do have criticisms and concerns about this particular theology. However I believe in the same God, Jesus, and bible, along with a need to life an upright and holy life.
Sometimes I wonder if it is man that creates the contention when there is enough grace by God to differ in viewpoints.

Thanks again for sharing.
It has been enjoyable.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
At the end of all things, the Lord Jesus would say to them:
View attachment 17663[/user]

33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.
34Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them,He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

It always amazes me how people think they can judge the heart in view of eternity taking the place of God instead of loving your enemies and praying for them.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.
34Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them,He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

It always amazes me how people think they can judge the heart in view of eternity taking the place of God instead of loving your enemies and praying for them.

Who dares accuse us whom the Trinity has chosen for (his???) own? No one—for the Trinity (himself???) has given us right standing with (himself???).

jimmy-fallon-ew.gif

See how funny the Trinity is?
It doesn't make sense.
Grammatically and biblically.
Application of the pronouns "his and himself" are out of place in the Trinity.

Romans 8:33-37 would apply to those who know God - whom God has chosen for his own. And not everyone is chosen. I could say those who do not believe God, those who have a false idea of God and those who are confused about God are not chosen for his own.

But the thing is you know the Trinity, not God. The world knows the Trinity, not God. The doctrine of the Trinity no matter how incomprehensible, it is just fanatically accepted even if the word isn't in the Bible and unscriptural.

images

Michael Servetus - Wikipedia

1 John 3:1
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
1 John 3:1
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Ahhhh.... but I DO know Him and His power of resurrection.

I remember Satan once tried to take to seat of judgment--the accuser of the brethren.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Matthew 7:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Other verses like this is Matthew 25:31-46. Doing the will our Father in heaven means:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Not too much in there about being a follower of Christ let alone the right kind of Christian.


I have addressed this on another thread to you. In brief we have two responsibilities. One is to recognise the Messiah when He comes and the other is not to follow false teachers. It is not enough to follow an outdated religion, reject the promised Messiah and accuse Him of being a deceiver without investigating His claims.

There are 30,000 to 40,000 denominations of mainstream Christianity.
And indeed it is polytheistic with the Triune God, that they even could not explain themselves
They have statues, rituals and practices adopted from paganism

These are the things Jesus Christ warned about:

So is Christianity too far gone?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I sure do. For an example, when I see the ram caught in a thorny thicket bush with the horns on his head, I see various things. The thorns that the curse brought on in Genesis 3 and the thorn on the Crown of thorns on the head of Jesus. A figure of Jesus taking on the curse of sins.

We agree on these connections. We both belief in an Omnipotent God that has provided prophecy through the OT and NT. Do you think its possible that Jesus fulfilled that prophecy, yet came into existence in Mary's womb?

In regards to Jesus as a mediator or intercessor:

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Romans 8:34

The author of John supports support Jesus as an intercessor:
John 14:13-14 and 1 John 5:14-15

Actually, I think the soul is the mind, will and emotions. IMV there is a difference between the soul and spirit.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
II Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Although in context of scripture, it takes deep study to find out when it is speaking of the soul, when it is speaking of the spirit, and when it is speaking about both soul and spirit as one.

Fair enough. Its terminology and we are using words differently but have the same understanding.

You don't know how refreshing this is to me.

No put downs and no contention. Just a sharing of viewpoints. If we leave with different views, we simply leave understanding each other a little better.

That's great, and thank you for gently reminding me about the best way to approach discussions on RF. I've learnt a lot through this thread and those such as yourself who have contributed. It is unrealistic to expect complete unity from two people firm in their faith but with different religions. The best approach is to simply hear each other's views.

Sometimes I wonder if it is man that creates the contention when there is enough grace by God to differ in viewpoints.

There are many ways we can experience God's grace and we are all on a journey.

It has been enjoyable.

For me too. Thank you.
 
Other verses like this is Matthew 25:31-46. Doing the will our Father in heaven means:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Not too much in there about being a follower of Christ let alone the right kind of Christian.
Jesus also said "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Someone mentioned her in a chat room, as she has a similar theology to my own; they recommended this book, which has what i was referring to, found a pdf of it online somewhere...

The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God: Amazon.co.uk: Margaret Barker

It must be great to have someone with a similar theology. I wonder sometimes what it must be like for you having no faith community of like minded people.

Within my NDE, Heaven is called Oneness; there is one Core, and many individual characters within it, yet everything is unified by the Oneness of all being focused on the same.

The concept of a unified oneness is central to Baha'i theology.

Thus when people get confused that there could be multiple Elohim in Heaven, and each is its own essence, both part of the CPU which manifests everything; yet also capable of coding reality.

What do you mean by CPU and coding of reality?

My definition of Elohim goes away from dictionaries, and uses my logic...

If EL is singular, and originally was applied to the God Most High (EL Elyon)...

Why then would a culture use a plural word, if they didn't need to...

Why cause such confusion, it makes no logical sense to me; as it seems more the Jews were trying to imply a stricter monotheism, after coming back from the Babylonian exile.

This sounds like a Jewish thing that is way over my head.

So to me, based on everything I'm aware of, the Elohim are Arch Angels, Avatars, and the Elders in Revelation...

Surrounding the Throne of God (EL), there are multiple ascended masters, Elohim, these created, and coded reality.

This why the Psalm 82:6 says we're all Elohim, as we're all fallen angels who have forgotten our origins.

and this too...

The Roman Empire still exists; we've still got Roman roads, taxes, Senate, same political families, government, religion, etc...

Why fight physically with an Empire much stronger than your own, if you have control of reality its self...

Thus in Revelation Rome is finally removed, along with all those who don't recognize its iniquities.

I know you believe we are headed for the cataclysmic apocalypse any day now.

If we read the whole context at the start of Isaiah 11, we see many prophetic statements that happen at the beginning of the Messianic age...

Thus it refers to Yeshua in both times, in his first appearance, he wasn't not of the line of David due to the Tribe he was born into, and as saying he is still of the root of Jesse metaphorically, if he was a reincarnation of David.

Do you mean reincarnation like the Hindus believe?

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, "This is the word of Yahweh to Zerubbabel, saying, 'Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says Yahweh of Armies.

Zechariah is a notoriously difficult prophetic book. Zechariah 4 culminates in the two olive trees symbolic of the two anointed ones. There is a similar reference in Revelation 11:3-4. I believe they refer to Muhammad and His son-in-law and successor (according to Shi'ite tradition) Ali.

We're coming to a time where the warmongers are removed, and weapons are turned into farming tools; there is something wrong with people who want a warrior king, and don't recognize this can not fit.

Death is to be removed from the world.

Take into account that Melchizedek was both a King and High Priest, David performed both actions at times...

Within the Messianic age, God is making everyone priests, therefore the king shall be both. :innocent:

I agree that we are in the end times, but it is like the end times that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24 with the end of the Jewish era culminating in the destruction of Herod's temple and Jerusalem. However this darkness is accompanied by the parallel process with the birth of the Christian era and accompanying tribulations.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Jesus also said "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29

Sounds like you have been studying the gospel of John.:)

That is the first step of course, believing in Jesus. However that was nearly two thousand years ago spoken to His disciples who of course were all Jews at a time of Messianic expectation based on the Hebrew bible. We need to consider a similar task God requires from us in the age we now live. (Matthew 16:3)
 

bali

New Member
Nice attitude on this thread...well done.
Personaly like the Jews I believe in ONE GOD ... YHWH . I believe HIS holy spirit allowed Mary to conceive HIS son...Yeshua.
Yeshua is our King of the earth to be soon, but only AFTER the earth is wiped clean of satans cities, satan's capitalistic way, and satan's evil children who love his way."The rich get richer and the poor poorer" with 2.5 Billion suffering and dying, and now millions more effected by man's greed causing escalating wars.
Yeshua is our leader, the anointed one receiving YHWH's holy spirit at John's baptism.
Our Lord died for us and was resurected by YHWH... as example for us.
So are our sin's are forgiven, so are we born again.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
It must be great to have someone with a similar theology.
It was reassuring, in context of the debate, as I'm often challenged that only i have this weird theology; yet to find other scholars are coming to the same conclusion based on the text, means it is logical to others as well.

The Most Heiser: Yahweh and Elyon in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32 | Religion at the Margins

This article is more academic based on these concepts; Margret justifies Paul, John, etc, which means though she recognizes the 1st temple theology, she has also mixed it into a setting that can not fit.
I wonder sometimes what it must be like for you having no faith community of like minded people.
This is the funny thing, got hippies globally who've looked at many religions, given up wealth, and believe in Oneness; it is just religious people who seem against it.

Then at 15, within the one voice coming from the throne, surrounding it were beings throughout history, who are on the same page as us...

So personally don't feel that alone, am guided by everyone, get the miracles that are needed; so am very aware being watched in all thoughts, and actions.
What do you mean by CPU and coding of reality?
In the Bible YHVH spoke the "word", in the Hindu text Brahma said "Om", it is all mathematical code...

Music is code; so when Dr Michio Kaku says, "the Mind of God is like cosmic music resonating throughout 11 dimensional hyperspace".

Thus in the center of all consciousness, there is a Singularity that manifests reality; it is highly logical, and evolves as it learns, yet computes information using logic similar to Tao.

In the holographic universe model this is easier to comprehend, as then the reality is all processed by the CPU (Central Processing Unit), like we're all in a giant computer.

Though whereas people start thinking about hardware, this whole reality is purely made from conscious all vibrating at different speeds; which is were Michio used music from seeing the quantum physics.

A Matrix isn't from the film btw, it was before fulfilling Revelation 10, had noticed how reality was mathematically coded just by observation of the Fibonacci sequence everywhere, and so was using that term as 'a mathematical grid that things exist within'.
This sounds like a Jewish thing that is way over my head.
Sorry my fault then, maybe i've not explained it well enough....

EL = God in Hebrew, which states it is One within the overall text....

Therefore when the Psalm 82:6 says 'we're all Elohim' or there is 'a council of Elohim' (Psalm 82:1), that is plural to something that can't be.

So saying that the modern Jews are wrong in their comprehension of the language, Elohim meant angels or avatars like in Hinduism.
Do you mean reincarnation like the Hindus believe?
Nope not completely, it has odd bits of merit; yet certain things being challenging lately, like the demonic people, being sent back here , to worse environments isn't true (B.G 16).

God is continuously working on all of us, supplying everything possible to make us wake up to the true reality; it doesn't work against us, we do.

Reincarnation within Judaism is called Gilgul; I like the idea that God brings back those who help in the progress of the Messianic age.

My understanding of reincarnation is based on NDE quantum physics, remembering lots of people from their past incarnations most of my life, and what all religions say, including Islam, and Christianity which deny it being within their texts, so it is more of an accumulated scientific understanding.
Zechariah is a notoriously difficult prophetic book.
Think some of it is quite straightforward, once clarifying the event timelines it is referring to, using the interlinking passages it references....

Like take the timeline of the prophets, and realize Zechariah wrote hundreds of years after everyone, so many of his points are clarifications of things already stated.
There is a similar reference in Revelation 11:3-4.
Revelation 11:10 says 'the people of the earth give each other gifts, as they hate the prophets' (Christmas); we celebrate "unto us a child is born", as we're going to sacrifice him later, when Yeshua stood against such a concept.

It says in Revelation 11:8-12 these two prophets are killed in the streets of Jerusalem, and after 3 days raised; John the Baptist, and Yeshua, were both killed, left in the street, and then raised.
However this darkness is accompanied by the parallel process with the birth of the Christian era and accompanying tribulations.
This was the prophesied Abomination of Desolation you're referencing as an alternate side; the time to come is positively magical, this is Never Never Land, not Hooks Nightmare. :innocent:
 
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