Speaking in Tongues

BUDDY said:

What was the purpose of the gifts of the Holy Spirit such as were displayed in the New Testament in your opinion?

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To give a hope of the realities and joys of heaven.

I've heard voices in the Spirit sing. Just 10 seconds of the voices and sounds I heard were so beautiful and powerful, that it was enough to motivate me for the last ten years, to keep plugging away, in spite of great oppositions in my life.

Buddy, that was a good post above, I agree with it pretty much except the last part:

There is something to be gained though, in giving man a spiritual gift that allows him to preach the word to someone in their own language and therefore have the ability to be converted,

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Like I pointed out earlier, yes, they all spoke the 'wonderful works of God', in every man's language, YET, it was not until Peter preached by the Power of the Holy Spirit, that 3,000 were saved, and he would have taken a LONG time if he preached the same sermon in each of the languages listed, most likely it was the common, Koine Greek He spoke. This was a fulfilment of what Jesus told them, that they would be witnesses and preach the gospel to the world starting at Jerusalem, AFTER they waited for the Holy Spirit to give them power from on high.

Say, just to everyone, has anyone had the 'cloven tongues of fire' descend upon them, now that would be really far out, man. I just joking a bit, be cool

joeboonda said:

Cool thing about a 'pentecostal/charismatic service, is that for maybe a half hour or so, everyone sings praise and worship, it can be exciting, and can be reverent, what is neat is that everyone just lifts up their hands or claps and sings, but they BEGIN PRAISING AND WORSHIPPING JESUS WITH THEIR MOUTHS, they just start saying, praying, shouting, we praise you Jesus, we love you, we adore you, thank-you Jesus, halleluia, etc. just praising vocally. It is so moving, it is hard to describe. And people are praising and worshipping in 'tongues', and just loving Jesus, pouring out praise to Him for what He has done for us. It is an emotional experience and there is power in some worship services, no doubt. But it isn't exactly decently and in order, but it isn't exactly not, except when people begin doing some of the strange things people have done to get a higher experience. The pastor of a church I went to for a bit said the 'Shekhina (sp) Glory of the Lord falls upon the service, like we 'bring' God's power down from Heaven. I always thot that was a bit much, Jesus said where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is there. The Holy Spirit and presence of God, Jesus, is always with us and when we worship coorporately, whether in a 'charismatic' setting or an orthodox or baptist or methodist or any other, the Spirit of the Lord is there, although in some churches, its not. I've heard of people who attended church all their lives and were never told they needed to believe in Christ and be born again! Ah, well, for me, anytime I am in church I always want to cry. I feel the great mercy and grace and forgiveness and patience of God toward me, and I just want to cry and cry of happiness. It happens in any church of believers, it almost makes me afraid to go, cause I hate to cry in front of people, so I try real hard not to, then I cry all the way home, lol. Its not from sadness, its just from the joy of the Lord, from his mercy to this poor, miserable, sorry, wretched sinner, that He renews every morning. I don't care if people speak in tongues, I don't even think God cares, He just cares that we know He loves us unconditionally. I'll try to get back on topic....

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Thanks for the lovely post. You described beautifully what our services are like.

I guess I'm blessed...I truly don't go to a Pentecostal church where things get "wierd". Lively at times...yes but in a really phenomenal way.

FFH said:

To give a hope of the realities and joys of heaven.

I've heard voices in the Spirit sing. Just 10 seconds of the voices and sounds I heard were so beautiful and powerful, that it was enough to motivate me for last ten years to keep plugging away in spite of great oppositions in my life.

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You mention, 'plugging away', I understand that. But, do you mean plugging away to earn your salvation, or plugging away because you are already saved and have ceased from your own works (for salvation) and have entered into His 'rest', as in Hebrews 4, and are now plugging away working because you are saved? Just wondered.

dawny0826 said:

Thanks for the lovely post. You described beautifully what our services are like.

I guess I'm blessed...I truly don't go to a Pentecostal church where things get "wierd". Lively at times...yes but in a really phenomenal way.

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Thanks, Dawny, I know I am not Pentecostal although I attended one for a few years, even played in the Praise and Worship Group, but I think a lot of churches could learn something from their services. (not the far out ones, lol). I love Hymns, and get blessed by them, but I like the contemporary services, some say they may get to 'wordly', and some probably do, but a lot are right on I think. Glad to know we can talk about such a touchy subject with love and respect, I have studied Acts and I Corintians 12-14 too, and I understand you on it. I am just so glad you love Jesus and others and believe the Bible is God's Word that we can find THE truth in, very glad you're here!
Mike

joeboonda said:

I know, I was just joking around a bit. I know when I am filled with the Spirit, or when He is 'speaking' to me. I don't put much stock in feelings or emotions and such, it is more like a still small voice, go witness to that person, or quit eating so much red meat, lol.

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Right, and the Holy Ghost does work by whispering to the mind in a still small voice.

There are many different manifestations of the Spirit.

Interpreting languages miraculously
Speaking in other languages miraculously
Speaking in a heavenly language
Interpreting a heavenly language
Prophecies
Revelations
Healings
Chills
Good feelings
Promptings
Still small voice
Whisperings in the mind
Peace of mind
Burning in the heart

This list could go on but these are all manifestations of the Spirit.

Biddy said:

The purpose of speaking in tongues was to preach the word to those who spoke different languages, so that they could be converted. You ahve to remember, that the apostles and disciples were commanded tog o throughout the world and teach the gospel to every creature, not just to those who could speak Arabic or Greek. That is why on the day of Pentecost, when the holy spirit fell upon the apostles and disciples and they began to speak, they spoke in languages which others could understand, not just some jibberish

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They did both. They spoke in other languages miraculously, and they also spoke in a heavenly language and communed with heaven.

joeboonda said:

Thanks, Dawny, I know I am not Pentecostal although I attended one for a few years, even played in the Praise and Worship Group, but I think a lot of churches could learn something from their services. (not the far out ones, lol). I love Hymns, and get blessed by them, but I like the contemporary services, some say they may get to 'wordly', and some probably do, but a lot are right on I think. Glad to know we can talk about such a touchy subject with love and respect, I have studied Acts and I Corintians 12-14 too, and I understand you on it. I am just so glad you love Jesus and others and believe the Bible is God's Word that we can find THE truth in, very glad you're here!
Mike

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I feel the same! Thanks again for such lovely posts.

joeboonda said:

You mention, 'plugging away', I understand that. But, do you mean plugging away to earn your salvation, or plugging away because you are already saved and have ceased from your own works (for salvation) and have entered into His 'rest', as in Hebrews 4, and are now plugging away working because you are saved? Just wondered.

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When I say plugging away I mean we have faced much opposition from Satan. Nobody is immune to this.

Why not? If God gave it to Christians in the Bible, couldn't He give it to Christians today?

What made it stop?

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Today, when you hear people speaking in tongues, they are making various sounds that are parts of no language. When the apostles, and other Bible Christians spoke in tongues, they were speaking in an actual language other than their native one. We can see in Acts chapter 2 that Jews from every nation were in Jerusalem, and each of them heard the apostles speak in their own tongue. The word "tongue" was reffering to a language. The gibberish we hear today is nothing like that.

Tongues were also supposed to be signs to someone who was not a Christian. Speaking in tongues was a sign of God's power, and was used to convince nonbelievers of the truth. See Mark 16:17-20. Today, people speak in tongues to prove how close to God they are, or that they are saved. I belive this is a prime example of hypocrisy. They wish to show how great of a Christian they are. In any case, tongues in the New Testament were never spoken for the purposes I described.

Furthermore, we see in 1 Corinthians 14:28 that if no interpreter is present, the speaker must keep silent.

All of the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10, which includes speaking in tongues, are examples of miraculous gifts and events. This means that
a) miraculous gifts were given by the laying on of apostles' hands. (See Acts 18:14-17, Acts 6:6-8, Romans 1:11)
b) Miraculous gifts were eventually supposed to cease
c)If people can miraculously speak in tongues, why can't we heal and prophesy as well? Why do some miraculous gifts still exist, while others do not.

Please, click here for further details.

Evidence of two types of tongues in scripture.

The miraculaous speaking in tongues can take on two forms.

1) Miraculously speaking in "other" tongues (earthly languages of men)
2) Miraculously speaking in the tongues of angels (heavenly language of God)

1 Corinthians 13: 1

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Book of Mormon
2 Nephi 32: 2

Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

2) Miraculously speaking in the tongues of angels (heavenly language of God)

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And so how is this heavenly language of God interpreted?

And if it can be interpreted (and there must be an interpreter, you know) why can't we all learn to speak this language? I mean, it may be a stupid question, but just wondering.

Christiangirl0909 said:

And so how is this heavenly language of God interpreted?

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Usually the person speaking it interprets it, but there is no way to verify this, living on this earthly plane of existence. It must be accepted by faith.

A person must be given the gift of speaking and interpreting tongues, heavenly or earthly.

I was able to function in Tokyo, Japan for almost two years using gifts God had given me to understand and speak and write Japanese just enough to get the message of Jesus Christ to as many people as possible.

Christiangirl said:

And if it can be interpreted (and there must be an interpreter, you know) why can't we all learn to speak this language? I mean, it may be a stupid question, but just wondering.

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I'm sort of paraphrasing a scripture when I say, "All are not given the same gift, but to one is given the gift of tongues, and to another the gift of healing, and to another the gift of prophecy, and so forth".

Book of Mormon
Moroni 10: 8

And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

Christiangirl0909 said:

And so how is this heavenly language of God interpreted?

And if it can be interpreted (and there must be an interpreter, you know) why can't we all learn to speak this language? I mean, it may be a stupid question, but just wondering.

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Please read 1 Cor., Chapter 14.

There are TWO instances of speaking in tongues mentioned here.

ONE instance is speaking in tongues is for self edification. In this instance...it's not at all about WHAT is being said...because it's between the individual and God. It's like a faith exercise. In faith, you yield your tongue to the Holy Spirit. I'm by no means saying that ALL Christians should do this. I DO...and as the bible states...it is edifying for me. I don't even speak in tongues unless I feel pressed by the Spirit to do so. And nine times out of ten...I'm home...praying, praising and studying my bible when I do this.

The SECOND instance is speaking in tongues for the edification of the CHURCH. And in this case, there MUST be an interpretor...as the person speaking in tongues will either be speaking for the sake of prophesy or speaking FOR the masses for the betterment of the masses.

Usually the person speaking it interprets it, but there is no way to verify this, living on this earthly plane of existence. It must be accepted by faith.

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Exactly!

The Bible even refers to tongues (as far as self edification is concerned) as speaking in a language that no man can understand. It's not FOR other people...it's between the individual and God.

When people speak in tongues for prophesy...in front of the masses...it doesn't really matter whether or not the individual is speaking an actual language or speaking gibberish...if they're genuinely speaking in tongues...the interpretor, by the Holy Spirit...will be able to distinguish what's being said.

This is a faith matter.

In fact, on one occasion...I was praying and started to speak in tongues and it scared me. The moment that fear crept in...it stopped...completely. Why? Because fear is NOT of God. And the moment that I allowed doubt in...I was incapable of continuing.

Dawny said:

Please read 1 Cor. Chapter 14.

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Dawny keeps urging us to look at this chapter.

The answers are all there, concerning tongues, just as Dawny has stated.

1 Cororinthians 14: 1-8

1- Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2- For he that speaketh in another tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3- But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4- He that speaketh in another tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied; for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6- Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7- And even things without life-giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8- For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?


This scripture tells me that speaking in tongues, in public, is profitless, unless there is someone to interpret what is being spoken. Usually the person speaking in tongues, in public, interprets himself, or herself. After speaking briefly in tongues, he or she expounds upon, in English, what he or she just received from God in the spirit.

I see this happen all the time. I know that what the person has just said, in tongues, is being interpreted, or expounded, upon in English.

I used to listen to Japanese men and women go on and on about their interpretation of God and who they thought God was, but most of what they said I really didn't fully understand, yet the spirit spoke clearly to me in English and said this is generally what they are saying. The details of what they were saying weren't important, but the general idea was, which was always shown to me in the spirit.

The Lord gave me, through the Holy Ghost, the general meaning of what they were saying, and left out the details.

It's the same with tongues, but most of the time it's just the opposite. The person speaking in tongues, does so, very briefly, then a long interpretation, or teaching, is expounded upon, which was received in the spirit, while speaking in tongues. This leaves no doubt that the person had communed with God in the spirit, and had spoken in this heavenly language. The spirit testifies this, by giving me a peace of mind, and a general understanding of what went on in the spirit, while they were speaking in tongues. Usually the person quickly stops themselves, from continuing on in tongues, and quickly speaks in English, the very same sentence spoken in tongues. They don't actually say it's an interpretation, but through the spirit, you know it's generally what was said.

(continued)

1 Corinthians 14: 9-33

9- So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10- There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11- Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12- Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13- Wherefore let him that speaketh in another tongue pray that he may interpret.

14- For if I pray in another tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15- What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16- Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17- For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18- I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19- Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, than by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20- Brethren, be not children in understanding; howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21- In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22- Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesyings serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23- If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24- But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25- And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

26- How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27- If any man speak in another tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28- But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

29- Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30- Ifany thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31- For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32- And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33- For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

FFH said:

Dawny keeps urging us to look at this chapter.

The answers are all there, concerning tongues, just as Dawny has stated.

1 Cororinthians 14: 1-8

1- Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy....etc.....



33- For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

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Hmm...you stopped at verse 33...the whole chapter deals with tongues, here is the rest:
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

The next verse, in this great chapter on tongues says for women to keep silence, it is not permitted, and a shame to them to speak out in church. Now, I don't think Paul is trying to put down women, this is Holy Scripture, God's Word, "the commandment of the Lord", and in other places it talks of women not usurping authority over a man as far as in teaching men doctrine, they may teach women and children doctrine. It doesn't mean they can't have a ministry, preach the gospel, teach a sunday school class, a womans's group, evangelize, witness, get up and give their testimony, teach in school or college or be a boss at work, or anything like that. Because, what is the context? The context is rules on tongues, and here it says women should not do it in church. Hey, I did not say it, and I think women are equal to men and many these days I admire more than many men, lol, but if we go by God's Word on tongues here, it says for them not to in the church. The 2 verses right before that verse also say:
14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
And the last verse after those says: 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

Now, in Pentecostal services I have been to and seen, many people will speak in tongues at once, women, too, everyone praising and shouting and raising their hands, (and sometimes its kinda cool actualy, lol, and sometimes it is very not cool) but it is not exactly orderly, and the 'spirits of the prohpets aren't subject to the prophets', so much either. What I mean is people say they get 'carried away', they 'can't help it', they gotta shout and let loose with all these 'tongues' and shaking and falling out and running around and jumping up and down and all sorts of things. (some churches are 'milder' than others, but, not always) But this verse says two or at most three should speak in tongues and take turns, and there should be an interpreter. But, for most of the Praise and Worship time everyone is shouting, speaking in tongues, singing, and in some instances it can be a mad house, definetely freaks a lot of people out who first see it. Their like, man these people are nuts!, and Paul kinda said, yeah, they're gonna think you're mad, unless you speak words easy to be understood, in their language they understand, you might as well speak into the air. (He compares 5 words someone understands to 10,000 they don't) Paul was trying to teach the very carnal church at Corinth lots of stuff, and on tongues he taught, that, it was not a gift for everybody, it was the least of the gifts, it was not to be sought as the most important gifts, it was to be limited, and to be interpreted, and not done by women, and it would cease.

1. Not for everybody, the least of the gifts: Oh, but you're missing something if you don't experience it they say...its the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit, Entire Sanctification (later on those)...

12:28 And God hath set somein the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [ FINALY, tongues comes in dead last.]

12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? {NO} do all interpret? 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. [We don't seek the gifts, the Holy Spirit divides to everyone individually, as HE wills.]
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

2. Not to be sought and not the most important gift:

But covet earnestly the best gifts: (1st, 2nd, 3rd...) and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians) Tongues were not to be coveted, desired, or sought, Paul said covet the BEST gifts: Paul says:
14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. [prophesy is to pro-fess, speak forth, the gospel so people get saved, edified.]
14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue...(unknown is in italics, not in the original text at all, not in any existing manuscript, it was added)
14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Paul says that you are looking for spiritual gifts, but the most important thing is to look for the edifying of the church. He finaly sums up and says tongues are to be tolerated, but not coveted or sought:

14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

He lists it in an orderly emphasis, first desire to prophesy, (again not like a prohet telling some new revelation, here it is to speak forth the Word of God, so people can understand and be saved and edified.) Then, says forbid not to speak with tongues.

3. Tongues was to be limited and interpreted:

14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Here he says by 2 or at MOST 3, and by course, which is IN TURN, and if no one can interperet what you are saying, shush.

I believe alot of this was God's way of teaching the Corinthians before the canon was complete. Now that we have it, we're cool, we got what He needs us to know.

4. Tongues will cease: We all know that from chapter 13, that there are six gifts mentioned: prophecy, revelation, tongues, faith, hope, and love, and only three would reamain (faith, hope, and love). Not just here, but as I Corinthians was one of Paul's early epistles, exept the letters to the Thessalonians, no other epistle mentions tongues AT ALL. It appears they were on their way out even at the time. Romans is a great book on doctrine and practical living, and never mentions tongues. Ephesians is about the church and it s mystery and not once mentions tongues. Not Peter, John, or James mentioned tongues, it ceased.
John Chrysostom is one of the most well known early church fathers and in AD 400 wrote about it: "The whole passage is very obscure, but the obscurity arises from the ignorance to the facts described which, though familiar to those whom the apostle wrote, have ceased to occur." By 400, they had ceased for so long they did not even know what the passage was talking about. No missionaries can go preach a foreign language unless they learn it first, it would be great if they just 'got the gift' all of a sudden. No great soul winners and men of the church ever sought or talked in tongues, not Luther, Calvin, Moody, Spurgeon, Sunday, Finney, , no missionaries like Carey, Taylor, or Livingstone either.

Well, kinda hodge-podge production, lol, we can go on and on about tongues, and I could go verse by verse and we all interpret it differently, and interperet things that just are not there, too. I only urge those involved in the tongues movement to objectively analyze some of the books or sites that would show Biblically and kindly the objections to it, too much to tackle at the moment....Love, God Bless...
Mike

may said:

the Bible is clear that the gift of tongues would cease. But when? Acts 8:18 reveals that the gifts of the spirit were received "through the laying on of the hands of the apostles." Evidently, then, with the death of the last apostle, the passing on of the gifts of the spirit would stop—including speaking in tongues. so, when those who had received these gifts from the apostles also passed off the earthly scene, the miraculous gift would cease. By then the Christian congregation would have had time to become well established and would have spread to many lands

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What you are overlooking is the fact that the Bible never did say that the Apostleship would cease. On the contrary, we read in Ephesians 4:11-14, that "...he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

Since the Apostles did initially call new men to fill the vacancy in their number when one of them died, and since Paul specifically noted that the organization established by Jesus Christ should endure till we were all unified in our faith in our Savior, it is definitely not implied in the scriptures that the spiritual gifts that were present in ancient Christianity were supposed to be lost. I will agree with you that they were lost for a great many years, but will also insist that they have since been restored.

Even John Wesley recognized that these gifts had been lost. In explaining one of the reasons he felt compelled to reform the Church of his day, he said, “It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries…. From this time… the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church… The Christians… only had a dead form [of Christianity] left.”

I'm also interested as to why you feel there would have been a need for the gifts of the Spirit in the early Church, but not today. Are we less loved by God, or are we merely too sophisticated to buy into such "nonsense"?

So all the great evangelists throughout the centuries who were empowered by the Holy Spirit, resulting in power to preach the Gospel, resulting in millions and millions of people accepting Christ and being saved, just because they didn't speak in tongues, did not have the power of the Holy Spirit? Not one of them? To truly know if someone is filled with the Holy Spirit, the BIble is clear that the main thing is that they will witness and preach the gospel.

24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
(King James Bible, Luke)
1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(King James Bible, Acts)

Someone who is filled with the Spirit points people to Christ to save them from Hell.