How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

syncretic said:

We aren't really disagreeing; however, the deity concept is different. Consider that Judaism has a certain set of parameters by which they perceive deity, and it differs from ''Christianity''; and as you note, always did. Now, for that to even occur, it means that ''Christians'', new converts, were either familiar with what we recognize as Christian theology, or already had a similar concept. We can say, therefore, that Judaism has a different deity concept, from Christianity. The 'argument' presented in this thread, is somewhat arbitrary, since the Christian theological concept is actually Israelitish. Further than that, it gets into discussions of which is more authentic yada yada whatever.
I'm simply stating that the Deity concepts are different.

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The religious thread to Christianity, went from mainstream Judaism, through a Jewish sect based on the teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus, to various stages of the creation of what we know today as the Christian faith.
The Gentiles were neither Jewish nor christian. However they were welcomed to become members of the new Judeo Christian sect. And their "traing manuel" still exists in the Didache. Which give us a very good insight in how these new communities organised them selves, based on the Jewish "Two ways of Life". And also what they believed, at this stage they certainly did not believe that Jesus was God.

I see that the difficulty comes about, because some denominations of Christians, have come to centralise their worship and entire faith around Jesus rather than, God the Father.
For much of the Christian period, worship was based on "God" in the manner "Taught" by Jesus. The confusion of the "trinity" allows for much of the worship of Jesus, the Holy spirit and even Mary mother of God.

Terrywoodenpic said:

Have you read the Didache?

The book written by Aaron Milavec gives the original text, Translation, analysis, and Commentary.
And answers all of the doubts you raise. and is probably the most respected of the works on the subject.

I have taken upon myself to give a copy to all new clergy that come to our church. Some like it, some believe what it says, and some are somewhat shocked that they had never heard about it before.

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No I have not. I pride myself on remaining ignorant of Christian writings. However, I do note that Wikipedia states under "Fasting"

So an anonymous apostate Jews looking to appease his conscience? A resentful Jew looking to stick it to the Man (in this case the Pharisees)? I don't see someone who thinks he is continuing Judaism, I see someone who is creating a new religion.

Tumah said:

No I have not. I pride myself on remaining ignorant of Christian writings. However, I do note that Wikipedia states under "Fasting"

Chapter 8 suggests that fasts are not to be on Monday and Thursday "with the hypocrites" — presumably non-Christian Jews, such as the Pharisees — but on Wednesday and Friday. ​

So an anonymous apostate Jews looking to appease his conscience? A resentful Jew looking to stick it to the Man (in this case the Pharisees)? I don't see someone who thinks he is continuing Judaism, I see someone who is creating a new religion.

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They were indeed in the process of creating a new and highly successful religion, that spread throughout the known world in under 300 years.

Your reference to fasting in chapter 8 is one of the Five prohibited Dispositions... in this case the hypocrisy is intimately linked to attachment to goods and to one's self importance, and in praying. But then you knew that ......
The days chosen did indeed set them apart.

The Didache is studied by Jewish scholars as it was established at the same period as the Jews were persecuted and the destruction of the second temple, the rise of many breakaway Jewish communities under the numerous wandering prophets.
Out of this lot, only Christianity survived and thrived, though soon to be heavily persecuted by the Romans. It was a heartbreaking though interesting period in Jewish history.

Terrywoodenpic said:

They were indeed in the process of creating a new and highly successful religion, that spread throughout the known world in under 300 years.

Your reference to fasting in chapter 8 is one of the Five prohibited Dispositions... in this case the hypocrisy is intimately linked to attachment to goods and to one's self importance, and in praying. But then you knew that ......
The days did indeed set them apart.

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And hence my point that there is no proof that they saw themselves as continuing the previous Jewish belief in G-d, but creating a new one to fit their new beliefs.

Tumah said:

And hence my point that there is no proof that they saw themselves as continuing the previous Jewish belief in G-d, but creating a new one to fit their new beliefs.

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How we all perceive God has changed more through contemporary thought and ethics, than because Jews became Christians. Today we perceive God very very differently to Jews or those Early Christians.

Christianity has perhaps more than a thousand years to go before it becomes as stable as the Jewish faith.

Though Every generation of Jews and Rabbi's re-interprets to reflect the changes in society and times.

Terrywoodenpic said:

How we all perceive God has changed more through contemporary thought and ethics, than because Jews became Christians. Today we perceive God very very differently to Jews or those Early Christians.

Christianity has perhaps more than a thousand years to go before it becomes as stable as the Jewish faith.

Though Every generation of Jews and Rabbi's re-interprets to reflect the changes in society and times.

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There doesn't seem to be any basis or proof to a single statement you've said here.

Tumah said:

There doesn't seem to be any basis or proof to a single statement you've said here.

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WE have a very clear Idea how Christians have viewed God through out history. It has been an area of academic interest since time immemorial.
The Jewish faith has been relatively stable since the Diaspora.. Certainly compared to Christianity.
It is a "known fact" than when any two rabbis have a theological argument they end up with at least three opinions.

You yourself belong to an extremely stable branch of Judaism.

The Idea that Jews tend to reinterpret to fit circumstances and "by generation", came from a long thread started by a Rabbi who used to frequent this Forum. As he was not refuted by any Jews, I took it as gospel.

syncretic said:

Since I consider it a real religion, no one 'invented'' it, in my opinion

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Okay got it.

firedragon said:

Who do you think invented Christianity?

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Christianity came after jesus was born. That is what I heard.

Priestess of Lucifer said:

Christianity came after jesus was born. That is what I heard.

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Considering the bible, the Christianity was used by others to address the followers of Christ. This happened first in Antioc. So from the biblical perspective the name was invented in antioc during the Barnabus episode.

Thus, as far as I am concerned, its a new name.

firedragon said:

Considering the bible, the Christianity was used by others to address the followers of Christ. This happened first in Antioc. So from the biblical perspective the name was invented in antioc during the Barnabus episode.

Thus, as far as I am concerned, its a new name.

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I am not aware of any of that.

syncretic said:

I'm talking about a Deity concept. The argument as to whether it is a "different deity'', is arbitrary, since the same Deific names/titles, are used.
Hence, we are discussing Deity concepts.
In Judaism, the Deity either does not, or cannot take a form. Thusly, do I even need to be a 'Christian'', in order to have a different Deity concept? The fact is, I, don't think that Deity cannot have a form. Hence different Deity concept.

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A double negative there so I am not sure what you mean.?
How ever as most believe God can do anything, he can also assume any form what so ever. That is with or without believing in a Jesus or a Holy Spirit. We have of coures no Idea what his preferred form is.

How in the World Can Anybody Think the Jews and Christians Have the Same God - That Jesus is Messiah?

I wonder because, indeed, such an idea is quite hard to conceive. First of all, if you read Mat. 1:18, the god of Christianity is described as the father of a child born of an earthly woman aka Mary. That's something alien to Judaism and proper only to Greek Mythology where such a child is called a demigod.

Now, that Jesus was the Messiah, he was not. The Messiah could not be an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Then, if you read Habakkuk 3:13 "the Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God. (Exodus 4:22,23)

syncretic said:

Oh, I thought we were discussing the nature of how jesus is JHVH via the Spirit, or JHVH as Deity, as a manifestation of the Godhead. As opposed to 'Yahweh', of Jewish belief, without the 'man form' entity or manifestation; because in Judaism there is no man form Deity, there can't be, observed by people.

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syncretic said:

How can it be the 'same' god when our god manifests in human form, ie Jesus? Judaism says that isn't possible, not to mention the other differences. Clearly not the 'same' deity.

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Thana said:

Because even Trinitarians don't really understand the mechanics of the Trinity, So I doubt the Jews understand it any better, let alone be able to deny it's possibility.
Besides, not all Christians are Trinitarians anyway.

Jesus was human. He is not human anymore.

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What would be the relevance of Judaism ''understanding'' the trinity?
The fact that you may not understand it, that isn't other's problem, frankly.

Yes, not all Christians are Trinitarians....relevance?

Terrywoodenpic said:

A double negative there so I am not sure what you mean.?
How ever as most believe God can do anything, he can also assume any form what so ever. That is with or without believing in a Jesus or a Holy Spirit. We have of coures no Idea what his preferred form is.

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This is either obfuscation, or you arent familiar with judaism or xian understanding regarding this.

1137 said:

I'm literally just straight curious. Not only is this a belief, it's a common one despite the two deities being inherently contradictory in nature and Jesus fulfilling little to NONE of the messianic prophesy. Not to mention the whole idea of Christ contradicts Judaism, and Christianity has blatantly perverted the Hebrew texts. If the deities are suppose to be the same, as Christianity seems to believe, as in they worship the Hebrew god, isn't the religion absolute pure blasphemy?

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The gospels record dozens of prophecies that Jesus Christ fulfilled as the Messiah. As a Jew, Jesus worshipped Jehovah and kept the Mosaic Law, fulfilling it, IMO.

Nah.

rusra02 said:

The gospels record dozens of prophecies that Jesus Christ fulfilled as the Messiah. As a Jew, Jesus worshipped Jehovah and kept the Mosaic Law, fulfilling it, IMO.

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Name one prophecy Jesus fulfilled. It should be self-evident. In other words I should be able to see with my own eyes. What does it mean to “fulfill” the Law?

roger1440 said:

Name one prophecy Jesus fulfilled. It should be self-evident. In other words I should be able to see with my own eyes. What does it mean to “fulfill” the Law?

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“O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel.”—Micah 5:2.
Fulfillment: Jesus was born in Bethlehem. When Caesar Augustus ordered a census, Jesus’ foster father, Joseph, was obliged to go from Nazareth to “Judea [Judah], to David’s city, which is called Bethlehem, because of his being a member of the house and family of David, to get registered with Mary.” While there, Mary “gave birth to her son” Jesus.—Luke 2:1-7.

“He will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death.”—Isaiah 53:9.
Fulfillment: Jesus was executed alongside two condemned criminals, yet he was buried in a quarried-out tomb donated by a wealthy believer—Joseph of Arimathea.—Matthew 27:38,57-60; John 19:38.

“From the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks.”—Daniel 9:25.
Fulfillment: The period of time specified in Daniel’s prophecy amounts to 69 units of 7 years each, or 483 years. The rebuilding of Jerusalem began in 455 B.C.E. As prophesied, 483 years (69 weeks of years) later, in 29 C.E., Jesus became the Anointed One, or Messiah, when he was baptized and anointed with God’s holy spirit.*—Luke 3:21, 22.
Source
As to how Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, this quote explains: "To illustrate: A builder fulfills a contract to complete a building, not by ripping up the contract, but by finishing the structure. However, once the work has been completed to the client’s satisfaction, the contract is fulfilled and the builder is no longer under obligation to it. Likewise, Jesus did not break, or rip up, the Law; rather, he fulfilled it by keeping it perfectly. Once fulfilled, that Law “contract” was no longer binding on God’s people." Thus, " Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness." (Romans 10:4)