Jesus Will Never Return

MJFlores · May 17, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
The point is that, before Mary had sex with Joseph, she was pregnant by another. Since she was Jewish, she could not have got pregnant by God; since this happened only among the Greeks. That's why the Jews who had grown up with Jesus thought he had been conceived through fornication with someone else if you read John 8:41.

Mary had sex with Joseph after Jesus was born.
But before that, he didn't.

Matthew 1:25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

But Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And he named him Jesus.

And the message of Jesus the Messiah is also extended to the Jews of today - regardless of their thoughts.

John 8:40-45 New King James Version (NKJV)

But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

John 8:46-59 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

The Jews there answered, “We say you are a Samaritan. We say a demon is making you crazy! Are we not right when we say this?”

Jesus answered, “I have no demon in me. I give honor to my Father, but you give no honor to me. I am not trying to get honor for myself. There is one who wants this honor for me. He is the judge. I promise you, whoever continues to obey my teaching will never die.”

The Jews said to Jesus, “Now we know that you have a demon in you! Even Abraham and the prophets died. But you say, ‘Whoever obeys my teaching will never die.’ Do you think you are greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

Jesus answered, “If I give honor to myself, that honor is worth nothing. The one who gives me honor is my Father. And you say that he is your God. But you don’t really know him. I know him. If I said I did not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know him, and I obey what he says. Your father Abraham was very happy that he would see the day when I came. He saw that day and was happy.”

The Jews said to Jesus, “What? How can you say you have seen Abraham? You are not even 50 years old!”

Jesus answered, “The fact is, before Abraham was born, I Am.” When he said this, they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus hid, and then he left the Temple area.

Redemptionsong · May 18, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Now, please go back to Isaiah 53 and provide me with a reference to Jesus as the Suffering Servant. But before, take a look at Psalm 44:14-27. Then compare the individual in Isaiah 53 with the plural of Psalm 44:14-27. One is the explanation to the other. To complete the info, you can read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son", said the Lord. Israel, the People is My Son. The collective is in the individual.

I agree with much of what you say here. Isaiah 53 is about the individual (Messiah), and Psalm 44:14-27 is about the suffering of his people (the body). As you say, the collective is in the individual (spiritually); but as you fail to say, the individual is the head of the collective.

Are you asking for a specific reference to the name 'Jesus' in Isaiah 53? If you are, then you should know first why this name cannot be given, and was intentionally hidden in the Tanach.
I Corinthians 2:7,8, 'But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.' The one body, Jew and Gentile, is a hidden mystery which could only come about through the death of Jesus Christ.

It is therefore necessary to study Isaiah 53 prayerfully. The clues are provided in the prophetic record. We should not have to guess or give private interpretation. We should seek and find the truth in the scripture itself.

Why do I believe that Isaiah 53 refers to the sufferings of Jesus as the 'anointed One'? Because the New Testament record demonstrates a fulfilment of this scripture. Check it out carefully for yourself.

There are eleven expressions in Isaiah chapter 53 that describe the sufferings endured by the Servant of God ('David my Servant')
1. 'He bore our griefs;' Matthew 8:17
2. 'He carried our sorrows;'
3. 'He was wounded for our transgressions;' Romans 4:25
4. 'Bruised for our iniquities;' Titus 2:14
5. 'The chastisement of our peace was upon Him;' Mark 14:61
6. 'By His stripes we are healed;' 1 Peter 2:24
7. 'The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all;' Hebrews 9:28
8. 'For the transgression of My people was He stricken;' Matthew 1:21
9. 'When Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin;' 2 Corinthians 5:21
10. 'He shall bear (or, carry) their iniquities;' 1 Peter 2:24
11. 'He bare the sins of many.' 1 Corinthians 15:3
These sufferings could not have been the sufferings of a collective, and point instead to the sufferings of one man for his people.

1robin · May 18, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
You were agreed with.

Redemptionsong · May 18, 2017

Ben Avraham, I suggest you read Isaiah 1:2-9; Jeremiah 17:1-7; Daniel 9:16-19.

Now look at Psalm 49:5-8.

If the body alone (the nation) is the 'Anointed One' then there can be no redemption. 'None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him'. It is therefore God who must do the redeeming. 'O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.'

Ben Avraham · May 19, 2017

Redemptionsong said:
Oh really? Israel (the Jews) were assigned as a light unto the Gentiles on their return from the Babylonian exile? That doesn't fit with history at all. You conveniently overlooked the following words; 'that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.' What kind of salvation has the Jewish diaspora ever brought to the Gentiles? Jews have suffered persecution at the hands of Gentile populations. It's true Christians (Jew and Gentile) who have spread light throughout the Gentile world. And that light is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This passage clearly refers to Christ as the light to the Gentiles. Only his salvation extends to the end of the earth!Isaiah 49:6, 'And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.'

Can you open the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach to provide us with a quote that Isaiah 42:6 is a reference not to Israel but to Jesus? If you can, I'll give you my word that I'll become a Christian as you are. But if you can't, you must do the opposite. Jesus was delivering his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews when he said, "You are the light of the world" if you read Mat. 5:14.

Ben Avraham · May 19, 2017

Redemptionsong said:
Ben Avraham, I suggest you read Isaiah 1:2-9; Jeremiah 17:1-7; Daniel 9:16-19. Now look at Psalm 49:5-8. If the body alone (the nation) is the 'Anointed One' then there can be no redemption. 'None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him'. It is therefore God who must do the redeeming. 'O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.'

As a matter of fact, none can by any means redeem his brother. But a nation is different. The Lord chose Israel, the Ten Tribes to redeem Judah so that it remained as the only nation in the Land of Israel if you read (Psalm 78:67-70) Individually, yes, no one can redeem another. (Ezekiel 18:4,20) Therefore, Jesus did not come with that purpose as he was crucified on the charge of insurrection. Hanse, his verdict read INRI. (John 19:19)

Ben Avraham · May 19, 2017

Redemptionsong said:
Let's read Ezekiel 37:22. It says this, 'And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:' So, the children of Israel will be one nation in the land of Israel. And one king will be king to them all. Now, tell me, who is this king that is king to them all? Verse 24 tells us that it is 'David my servant' that will be king over them all. And it continues, 'they all shall have one shepherd:'. This passage is clearly stating that the king who will reign over the one nation will be 'David my servant.'This tells me that the one king and servant is also the one shepherd. Do you agree? Do you also agree that the nation is not the shepherd?

That's exactly what it says in Ezekiel 37:22. Individually, it could never be King David because, David himself said that "Once dead no one will ever return from the grave" if you read II Samuel 12:23. It couldn't be Jesus either because, besides being dead, Jesus was never a king in Israel.

Redemptionsong · May 20, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Can you open the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach to provide us with a quote that Isaiah 42:6 is a reference not to Israel but to Jesus? If you can, I'll give you my word that I'll become a Christian as you are. But if you can't, you must do the opposite. Jesus was delivering his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews when he said, "You are the light of the world" if you read Mat. 5:14.

Ben Avraham, I'm sure you are happy to be a Jew, and even if you accept Jesus as the Christ, you will always remain a Jew. My primary concern is the truth of God's Word. At this moment, there is only one issue that I wish to persuade you to change your thinking on - that the 'anointed' of God is BOTH a SHEPHERD and his SHEEP. You cannot have one without the other. But the individual is the head, and the people follow.

You have repeatedly stated that Israel, under the covenant made with Moses, was a people chosen by God from the sons of Jacob. They gained their name from Israel the individual (Jacob). So Israel can be both an individual and a people.

I don't believe that one reference from the scriptures will convince you that Jesus is the Christ. The whole scripture has to be included to demonstrate convincingly that He is the Word of God.

Nevertheless, let's look at Isaiah 42:6 and Matthew 5:14.
Isaiah 42:6, 'I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;'

Here is scripture interpreting scripture.
The LORD, who is righteous (Psalm 7: 9,17) has called 'thee' (both head and body, 2 Chronicles 18:15,16; Ezekiel 34:11-15) to be holy (Deuteronomy 14:2; Psalm 11:4; Zechariah 6:12-15), and as part of this covenant the Lord promises to 'keep thee' (1 Samuel 17:34) as a shepherd keeps his sheep. And the Lord will 'give thee for a covenant of the people' (2 Chronicles 7:18; Psalm 78:70-72; Psalm 89: 3,4), 'for a light of the Gentiles' (Isaiah 60:1-6; Jeremiah 16:19-21).

Without prejudice, you can see that God refers to BOTH the Shepherd and the sheep as his 'anointed'. But the chosen are not all of Israel - only the remnant (Jeremiah 16:11)

Now let's turn to Matthew 5:14.
'Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.'
Here is scripture interpreting scripture.
Jesus is talking to 'his disciples' (Jews from Galilee, Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond Jordan - Matthew 4:23-25; Matthew 5:1) Blessed are those that behave in accordance with God's law and spirit [suggesting you must be pure in heart, meek, humble etc to fulfil the law] - 'great is your reward in heaven'. 'For I say unto you, That except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.'

Now look a little further on, to Matthew 6:38. Here Jesus says, ' Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.'

And finally in verse 48 Jesus says, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.'

The question I now ask you, Ben Avraham, is this. Are the Jews perfect before God? Are the Jews truly his people? Scripture has been telling us all along that Israel was not perfect under the first covenant. So a new covenant was needed.
The new covenant must be capable of changing the SPIRIT in man (the Beatitudes). So how is this achieved?

The New Testament tells us how.

Redemptionsong · May 20, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
That's exactly what it says in Ezekiel 37:22. Individually, it could never be King David because, David himself said that "Once dead no one will ever return from the grave" if you read II Samuel 12:23. It couldn't be Jesus either because, besides being dead, Jesus was never a king in Israel.

Yes, 'no one' will return from the grave, meaning no sinful man. But Jesus is different because he was not a sinful man. He was the Son of God. He was a sinless man with God's spirit in him. God had chosen Jesus as his earthly vessel, or temple. This is why he is called Emmanuel, God with us. Jesus was anointed as king, but only took to the throne in heaven following the ascension. Believers know him as their king now, but he will return to gather his own and to judge.

Allow me to provide the scripture.
2 Samuel 12:23, 'can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.' Man cannot raise himself from the dead. Only God is able to raise the dead. Why would God raise a sinner? And since we are all sinners, we are all lost. Selah.

That's why there is only ONE SAVIOUR! Behold, one Saviour! And that Saviour is God in Christ.
Isaiah 43:11, 'I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.' Hosea 13:4, 'Yet am I the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no God but me: for there is no saviour beside me.'

Now do some adding up. Zechariah 9:9, 'thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation;' This individual, a king, a man, comes with salvation. Yet there is only one saviour! He is God and man.

The New Testament confirms this. In Luke's gospel an angel says to Mary, 'He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.' (Luke 1:31,32)
Chapter 2, verse 11.'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.'

And in case you think that Jesus remained dead, look at Psalm 30 and meditate on these words;
Psalm 30:2,3. 'O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.'
So sing his SAINTS!

Ben Avraham · May 20, 2017

Redemptionsong said:
Ben Avraham, I'm sure you are happy to be a Jew, and even if you accept Jesus as the Christ, you will always remain a Jew. My primary concern is the truth of God's Word. At this moment, there is only one issue that I wish to persuade you to change your thinking on - that the 'anointed' of God is BOTH a SHEPHERD and his SHEEP. You cannot have one without the other. But the individual is the head, and the people follow.

You have repeatedly stated that Israel, under the covenant made with Moses, was a people chosen by God from the sons of Jacob. They gained their name from Israel the individual (Jacob). So Israel can be both an individual and a people.

I don't believe that one reference from the scriptures will convince you that Jesus is the Christ. The whole scripture has to be included to demonstrate convincingly that He is the Word of God.

Nevertheless, let's look at Isaiah 42:6 and Matthew 5:14. Isaiah 42:6, 'I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;'

Here is scripture interpreting scripture. The LORD, who is righteous (Psalm 7: 9,17) has called 'thee' (both head and body, 2 Chronicles 18:15,16; Ezekiel 34:11-15) to be holy (Deuteronomy 14:2; Psalm 11:4; Zechariah 6:12-15), and as part of this covenant the Lord promises to 'keep thee' (1 Samuel 17:34) as a shepherd keeps his sheep. And the Lord will 'give thee for a covenant of the people' (2 Chronicles 7:18; Psalm 78:70-72; Psalm 89: 3,4), 'for a light of the Gentiles' (Isaiah 60:1-6; Jeremiah 16:19-21).

Without prejudice, you can see that God refers to BOTH the Shepherd and the sheep as his 'anointed'. But the chosen are not all of Israel - only the remnant (Jeremiah 16:11)

Now let's turn to Matthew 5:14. 'Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.' Here is scripture interpreting scripture. Jesus is talking to 'his disciples' (Jews from Galilee, Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond Jordan - Matthew 4:23-25; Matthew 5:1) Blessed are those that behave in accordance with God's law and spirit [suggesting you must be pure in heart, meek, humble etc to fulfil the law] - 'great is your reward in heaven'. 'For I say unto you, That except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.'

Now look a little further on, to Matthew 6:38. Here Jesus says, ' Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.'

And finally in verse 48 Jesus says, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' The question I now ask you, Ben Avraham, is this. Are the Jews perfect before God? Are the Jews truly his people? Scripture has been telling us all along that Israel was not perfect under the first covenant. So a new covenant was needed. The new covenant must be capable of changing the SPIRIT in man (the Beatitudes). So how is this achieved? The New Testament tells us how.

Listen RS, there is something I have never told you before which prevents the approach you wish you could effect to reach me: There is not a single Jew who wrote a single page of the NT. Jews would not write against their own Faith.
The whole book of the NT was written by Hellenists, some of them, former disciples of Paul who was a Hellenist by birth. The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed it would ever rise. That's the main reason why it is so hard for a Christian to reach for the heart of a Jew, unless the Jew has absolutely no knowledge of the NT. Anyway, there is absolutely no reference about Jesus in the Tanach, unless a Christian is reading it with Christian preconceived notions. Let's make a deal! You quote what you think to be a prophecy or reference to Jesus in the Tanach. If I fail to prove to you what the prophecy or reference is point to, I promise I'll reconsider my Scriptural views.

Redemptionsong · May 21, 2017

The scriptural view that I would most like you to reconsider, and which I think is proved quite clearly in the Tanach alone, is that the anointed of God is BOTH the individual shepherd and the sheep (to form one body). It's the same analogy as the bride and bridegroom in marriage. One flesh.
Please read my references to Isaiah 42:6. The references are all taken from the Tanach.

As regards your statement about the New Testament writers, I have to disagree strongly. I believe that all the writers of the New Testament were, in fact, Jews. Even Luke. Maybe this is worth pursuing on another thread at another time.

Redemptionsong · May 22, 2017

[QUOTE="Ben Avraham, post:
You quote what you think to be a prophecy or reference to Jesus in the Tanach. If I fail to prove to you what the prophecy or reference is point to, I promise I'll reconsider my Scriptural views.[/QUOTE]

Ben Avraham, I'll repeat my point.
Using the Tanach alone, I believe I can demonstrate that there is an individual Messiah and that he is Israel's eternal Shepherd and King.

I'll start will a short verse from Ezekiel. Ezekiel 37:24 'David my servant shall be king over them;'
Now tell me, who do you think this is talking about? When does the reign occur?

Kelly of the Phoenix · May 22, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Jesus will never return.

So I guess I should put up the chips and dip then.

Ben Avraham said:
A poster once told me that, in his opinion, the Second Coming of Jesus would happen only when--through entirely natural causes--our planet be on the verge of destruction, and not before.

What's Jesus going to do? Force push the solar flare away or something?

Ben Avraham said:
Abraham went further and said that as long as there is a minyan of ten righteous, universal destruction would never happen.

I think this is stretching it.

Kemosloby said:
He said he would never again destroy all mankind with a flood, and gave the rainbow sign that there would be no more destruction by rain. Later on in the old testament he says next time he will do it by fire.

Yay for loopholes.

It's a wonder why Satan is the one usually portrayed as Master of Fine Print ....

URAVIP2ME said:
Rather than a literal fire, it will be the ' executional words from Jesus' mouth ' to get rid of the wicked.

In millions or billions of years, though, it will be literal fire as the dying sun engulfs the planet.

Brian Schuh said:
I mean they say he will kill all the wicked.

LOL, yeah, because he was so good at it the first time ...

Kemosloby said:
“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Of course, anyone can also just cut out ALL the middle men and go to God directly.

Ben Avraham said:
That would have been the climax of hypocrisy. (Mat. 10:5,6)

Is it too far fetched to think Jesus could be hypocritical? He also said that those who call people foolish will go to hell. He did and so did the author who graced us with "fools say there is no God". Do they go to hell?

Ben Avraham said:
Was Jesus a religious Jew or was he not?

Jesus may not qualify as a 3 dimensional character, but he's not 1 note either.

rusra02 said:
Concerning Christ’s coming, the Bible states: “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, . . . and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.” (Revelation 1:7)

And they will determine ISIS is attacking, and bomb him out of the sky ...

Ben Avraham said:
Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

Why not? It's a job title. Anyone can get that title.

soulsurvivor said:
So all those Jews waiting for Moshiach are waiting in vain, because Moshiach has already come and gone?

Yeah, there were several messiahs. It only means someone anointed by God to some cool thing. That's really it.

Redemptionsong said:
To whom does this refer?

Not Jesus.

MJFlores said:
They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Shepherds slaughter their sheep to eat them, you know.

Redemptionsong said:
To say that no one is or ever was without sin is fine, so long as you are not talking about the Son of God.

Have you read the bible? Jesus sinned plenty: vandalism/theft, assault, bigotry, dishonoring parents, using slurs (including one "fool" which he himself said would lead to hell if used), etc.

URAVIP2ME · May 22, 2017

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
So I guess I should put up the chips and dip then.
What's Jesus going to do? Force push the solar flare away or something?

I think this is stretching it.
Yay for loopholes.
It's a wonder why Satan is the one usually portrayed as Master of Fine Print ....
In millions or billions of years, though, it will be literal fire as the dying sun engulfs the planet.
LOL, yeah, because he was so good at it the first time ...
Of course, anyone can also just cut out ALL the middle men and go to God directly.
Is it too far fetched to think Jesus could be hypocritical? He also said that those who call people foolish will go to hell. He did and so did the author who graced us with "fools say there is no God". Do they go to hell?
Jesus may not qualify as a 3 dimensional character, but he's not 1 note either.
And they will determine ISIS is attacking, and bomb him out of the sky ...
Why not? It's a job title. Anyone can get that title.
Yeah, there were several messiahs. It only means someone anointed by God to some cool thing. That's really it.
Not Jesus.
Shepherds slaughter their sheep to eat them, you know.
Have you read the bible? Jesus sinned plenty: vandalism/theft, assault, bigotry, dishonoring parents, using slurs (including one "fool" which he himself said would lead to hell if used), etc.

Yum, ' chips and dips ' sounds good to me. I would be happy with chips and dips.
After all I'm looking forward to better conditions, better times, good times coming when there will be good-and-plenty for everyone on Earth.
I like how good conditions are brought out about Jesus at Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14; Psalms 72:16 ; Isaiah 35.

Since the 'Earth abides forever' according to Ecclesiastes 1:4 B, then No worry about a future solar flare.

MJFlores · May 22, 2017

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
Shepherds slaughter their sheep to eat them, you know.

I haven't tried sheep because it is not available where I am, so I have no idea. But your comment...

Matthew 25:31-33 New International Version (NIV)

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Sheep and Goats are symbolical representation of people who are his and not his, respectively.

Ben Avraham · May 23, 2017

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
What's Jesus going to do? Force push the solar flare away or something?

Jesus can no longer do any thing because he is dead. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6)

It's a wonder why Satan is the one usually portrayed as Master of Fine Print ....

Satan does not exist. Satan is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man.

Of course, anyone can also just cut out ALL the middle men and go to God directly.

And the only way to go directly to God is through obedience of the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

Is it too far fetched to think Jesus could be hypocritical? He also said that those who call people foolish will go to hell. He did and so did the author who graced us with "fools say there is no God". Do they go to hell?

Jesus never said such a thing. He never had any thing to do with the NT. BTW, he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

Yeah, there were several messiahs. It only means someone anointed by God to some cool thing.

BTW, there were indeed a few Messiahs: The Messiah anointed to be King, the Messiah anointed to be the High Priest, the Messiah anointed to be a prophet, and the collective Messiah anointed to be God's People if you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord, aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

Ben Avraham · May 23, 2017

Redemptionsong said:
Ben Avraham, I'll repeat my point.
Using the Tanach alone, I believe I can demonstrate that there is an individual Messiah and that he is Israel's eternal Shepherd and King. I'll start will a short verse from Ezekiel. Ezekiel 37:24 'David my servant shall be king over them;'
Now tell me, who do you think this is talking about? When does the reign occur?

Ezekiel 37:24 - The whole Ezekiel 37 is a reference to the vision of Ezekiel about the "Dry Bones" which means the return of Israel from exile. And verse 24 is a reference to a Government based on the Tribe of Judah which the Lord Himself promised would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever if you read I Kings 11:36 and II Kings 8:19.

Saint Frankenstein · May 23, 2017

If I were Christ, I wouldn't come back either. Humans are quite dreadful and sad.

MJFlores · May 23, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Jesus can no longer do any thing because he is dead. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6)

Satan does not exist. Satan is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man.

And the only way to go directly to God is through obedience of the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

Jesus never said such a thing. He never had any thing to do with the NT. BTW, he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

BTW, there were indeed a few Messiahs: The Messiah anointed to be King, the Messiah anointed to be the High Priest, the Messiah anointed to be a prophet, and the collective Messiah anointed to be God's People if you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord, aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

Mr. Ben said:

And the only way to go directly to God is through obedience of the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

Jesus never said such a thing. He never had any thing to do with the NT. BTW, he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

But you quote from the NT so the NT which is the gospel would answer.
Gospel - Wikipedia

And Jesus said these words:

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 26:13
Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”

Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

Mark 10:29
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

I think by the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, himself - he did not only dreamed that the NT would rise but he knew it will be preached to all nations.

Brian Schuh · May 23, 2017

The millerites said the world will end October 22, 1844. They sold their houses and farms and gave all their $ to the sick and poor. Then they all climbed a mountain in nothing but pure white robes and waited for Jesus to come back. When I told this to my girlfriend, she said, "that's just retarded." Right, all y'all waiting for Jesus to come back, y'all varying degrees and levels of being retarded.

Jesus Will Never Return

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Christian/Baptist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Wanderer From Afar

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member