Is eternal punishment just?

InChrist said:

the absence of God's life giving power will be empty suffering forever.

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What does life mean if we are talking about ghosts? They are pure mind.

InChrist said:

BTW. this eternal destiny of suffering is a choice one makes when the offer of eternal life freely given by God is refused.

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What will you say to the Muslim god if you meet Him on Judgment Day when He tells you that you deserve eternal torture because you made a choice and rejected His offer? How will you feel about such a god for the rest of eternity as you taste the pain he has chosen to inflict on you for eternity for not guessing correctly when he never made His existence clearly known?

Whatever your answer, wouldn't that be how most souls in hell would feel about your god if He did the same thing: Left a self-contradictory book with incredible claims and expected them to guess that a god had written it rather than ancient men?

The Bible does not teach that anyone will be tortured forever. The wages of sin is death and death mean the absence of life. The idea of souls being tortured is not Biblical

InChrist said:

You may think you are living apart from God, yet the scriptures state you, as well as everyone is dependent upon God each moment, for even every breath ...
Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it... Isaiah 42:5

.. so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; .for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring. Acts 17:27-28

And according to the words of Jesus, God the Father sustains and bestows blessings of life upon you...

that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:45




The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Psalm 19:1-6

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20

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Why are you quoting Christian scripture to a non-Chrisitian? How about if I quote Muslim scripture to you (I am not a Muslim)?

lostwanderingsoul said:

The Bible does not teach that anyone will be tortured forever. The wages of sin is death and death mean the absence of life. The idea of souls being tortured is not Biblical

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The Bible doesn't teach anything. It makes claims without supporting them. You can't teach a rational skeptic that way.

What is taught is the same as what is learned, and what is learned is learned from clergy and other apologists. Most Christians accept hell theology:

Matthew 13:42 - They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But if we are created as eternal spirits, then couldn't God choose to destroy us any way to prevent us from enduring eternal torment? After all, this is God and he can do anything. He can strip us of our eternal nature and, from there, completely destroy us.

Skwim said:

Is it just? Of course not, but then this is a god who creates evil and kills babies. So . . . . . . . ..

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Apparently we are not speaking of the same god. The God who created us. the God who inspired the Bible has clearly told us that the dead are not conscious and, therefore not subject to baking or boiling or frying or broiling. See Ecclesiastes 9: 5,6.

The god you wish to indict is the god who kidnapped the human race in Genesis ch. 3. Happily, his work will soon fail and his damage will be reversed.

You say the preacher never told you that? There is a reason ....

It Aint Necessarily So said:

. . . . Most Christians accept hell theology: . . .

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Most 'christians' have not actually read the Bible they claim to believe.

The Transcended Omniverse said:

But if we are created as eternal spirits, then couldn't God choose to destroy us any way to prevent us from enduring eternal torment? ... .

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The answer, of course, rests in the fact that we are not eternal spirits and when we die we are dead.

neologist said:

Most 'christians' have not actually read the Bible they claim to believe.

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That's an interesting statement. Where do you get that from? I'm a Christian and I read my bible every day

neologist said:

Apparently we are not speaking of the same god. The God who created us. the God who inspired the Bible has clearly told us that the dead are not conscious and, therefore not subject to baking or boiling or frying or broiling. See Ecclesiastes 9: 5,6.

The god you wish to indict is the god who kidnapped the human race in Genesis ch. 3. Happily, his work will soon fail and his damage will be reversed.

You say the preacher never told you that? There is a reason ....

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The quote you take from Ecclesiastes says that the dead do not participate in this world any longer. There are plenty of scriptures that refer to eternal life (John 3:16; John 17:3; Matt 25:46; Daniel 12:2; 2 Thes 1:8-9; John 4:35-36; etc)

Beth Stitely said:

That's an interesting statement. Where do you get that from? I'm a Christian and I read my bible every day

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Not to speak for @neologist (and I'm not sure if "most" is right), but I often encounter Christians who act as if there are large parts of the Bible that they aren't familiar with, such as by interpreting a passage in a way that contradicts another part of the Bible or by being surprised at verses that are in it.

Edit: I also sometimes hear Christians attribute quotes to the Bible that aren't actually in it (e.g. "God works in mysterious ways", "God helps those who help themselves").

Have you never considered the logical inconsistency of infinite punishment for finite sin?

I said:

Most 'christians' have not actually read the bible they claim to believe

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Beth Stitely said:

That's an interesting statement. Where do you get that from? I'm a Christian and I read my bible every day

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Understood
Note discussion below

i said:

Apparently we are not speaking of the same god. The God who created us. the God who inspired the Bible has clearly told us that the dead are not conscious and, therefore not subject to baking or boiling or frying or broiling. See Ecclesiastes 9: 5,6.

The god you wish to indict is the god who kidnapped the human race in Genesis ch. 3. Happily, his work will soon fail and his damage will be reversed.

You say the preacher never told you that? There is a reason ....

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you said:

The quote you take from Ecclesiastes says that the dead do not participate in this world any longer. There are plenty of scriptures that refer to eternal life (John 3:16; John 17:3; Matt 25:46; Daniel 12:2; 2 Thes 1:8-9; John 4:35-36; etc)

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Faithful people have known since long before Jesus' time that God has promised to undo death. See Job 14: 13-15. Jesus promised a resurrection at John 5:28, 29, as noted in your citation from Daniel. That in no way negates God's words to Adam in Genesis ch 3. In fact, even your citation form Daniel notes that the dead are not conscious.

InChrist said:

You may think you are living apart from God, yet the scriptures state you, as well as everyone is dependent upon God each moment, for even every breath ...
Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it... Isaiah 42:5

.. so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; .for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring. Acts 17:27-28

And according to the words of Jesus, God the Father sustains and bestows blessings of life upon you...

that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:45

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"The scriptures state"? Seriously? You're quoting me scripture that you know has no meaning to me?

I've got some for you from the Qur'an that is meaningless to both of us. I still want you to seriously consider these words and make life decisions based on them, because they appear in a book called a holy book:

"Wherein they will hear no unsuitable speech. Within it is a flowing spring. Within it are couches raised high" - Qu'ran Al-Ghashiyah 88:11

[sarcasm] Did you see that? Let that eternal wisdom marinate in your head for awhile. Couches will be raised high! So let it be written, so let it be done.

And yea verily, it's not just the couches that are slated for elevation. Love seats, too. Love seats will be raised on high by the angels as they weep, "Holy! O so holy!"

But there is more. Chaises will be lifted, davenports will ascend, and settees will float.

And behold, for it is also written: divans will sprout wings to take to the air even as chesterfields follow and head for the heavens behind them.

Please write these wise words down, or commit them to memory to inspire your remaining days [/sarcasm]

InChrist said:

Many of the detailed regulations of the OT you have listed pertaining to dress, the proper foods to eat, etc were specific to Israel, for specific reasons, and for a specific time.

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Were those rules from the timeless, unchanging, and eternal god with the objectively true moral values, or people pretending to speak for a god?

If the former, when do the present set of rules no longer apply? Can we assume that "love one another" has already expired? I'm thinking of American Christianity now.

The Transcended Omniverse said:

Criminals who have committed the most heinous crimes are executed. I would consider this to actually be a more just punishment than having the criminal endure the suffering of going insane from solitary confinement. In that same sense, wouldn't it be unjust for God to have sinners be tormented in hell for eternity rather than the concept of annihilationism where sinners are destroyed (or, in this case, executed)? But if we are created as eternal spirits, then couldn't God choose to destroy us any way to prevent us from enduring eternal torment? After all, this is God and he can do anything. He can strip us of our eternal nature and, from there, completely destroy us.

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God doesn't destroy anybody. People destroy themselves, by severing their connection to life.