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How are these Great Beings explained?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By Baha'i', sure. But saying I'm the president of the United States doesn't mean I'm the president of the United States.

Again, then by making the claim, it has to testable, is that agreed? The claim of being president of the USA is testable is it not?

As for this claimed 'prophecy' the Christians have denied it, the Muslims have denied it, and they're the guys that supposedly made it. So I'll go with what they said, and their interpretation. That seems more logical, that going backwards, saying, 'oh yes, they predicted I would come. Do you know how many people have claimed to be the Return of the Messiah. The wiki list is fairly long, and there are hundreds more. There have been at least two come to RF, maybe more.

No it was the Prophets and Messengers that gave the Prophecy. All other men can but try to understand. The only one that can prove the Prophecy, is the One that Fulfills it. Thus it is Testable by their Event.

Christ says in John 5:46 "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me".

So many Abrahamic prophecies, like the end of the world on certain dates, have just failed miserably. In fact personally don't know of a single prophesy that has veritably come true without lots of creative interpretation. Perhaps some of Nostradamus's stuff was close.

The Date prophecy for the end of the age (not world) made in Daniel and Revelation have proved to be 100% accurate.

William Miller did not get it wrong, it did not need re-interpretation, 1844 was correct. The year 1844 calculated from Daniel matches the Date of 1260 in Revelation. They are the same dates.

Quite amazing that Daniel is Calculated by the Christian solar Calendar, it proves the mission of Christ and then gives 1844 from the same start date.

Then Revelation uses the Muslim Lunar Calendar which gives the year 1260, which matches Daniel 1844.

One only has to Look and as Christ said in Revelation 3:22 "Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
No! The Islamic sources state that, when 1000 years is passed, a person whose name is alluded to be Ali Muhammad, appears in Persia, who is the Mahdi, He reveals a New Book, and abolishes the Rites before Him, He lives Seven years.

So, did it come to pass. Now show me another Mahdi Claimant that matches all these signs and descriptions. Not just one or two. No body else, other than the Bab matches all these descriptions.


This is precisely something I read by doctors looking at Jerusalem Syndrome. That was simply that all Messiah claimants claim that all others are false. So the doctors prophesised correctly.

Simply put, there is no proof beyond coincidence. And that isn't proof. Sorry.

Of course you have the right to believe it, as does anyone have the right to not believe it. If God did come to this planet, I would think his first order of business would be to clean it up.

This Mahdi - Wikipedia says the ruling time could be 7, 9, 11, or 19 years.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The greater part of your comment about the need for mutual respect, is the aim of our 'Unity in Diversity', this is the aim of the Lesser Peace given by Baha'u'llah.

Thus if you can work with the Baha'i Faith and all other Faiths in obtaining this Mutual Respect, then we have the agreement that all the discussion is aimed towards.

Regards Tony

The first part?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
No it was the Prophets and Messengers that gave the Prophecy. All other men can but try to understand. The only one that can prove the Prophecy, is the One that Fulfills it. Thus it is Testable by their Event.

Christ says in John 5:46 "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me".

The Date prophecy for the end of the age (not world) made in Daniel and Revelation have proved to be 100% accurate.

William Miller did not get it wrong, it did not need re-interpretation, 1844 was correct. The year 1844 calculated from Daniel matches the Date of 1260 in Revelation. They are the same dates.

Quite amazing that Daniel is Calculated by the Christian solar Calendar, it proves the mission of Christ and then gives 1844 from the same start date.

Then Revelation uses the Muslim Lunar Calendar which gives the year 1260, which matches Daniel 1844.

One only has to Look and as Christ said in Revelation 3:22 "Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Regards Tony

You have the right to believe whatever you want to. But it's belief, not fact. Not being an Abrahamic at all, and living in a totally different paradigm, I find all this 'historical debating' amongst all the various Abrahamic groups all trying to say, "I'm right and you're wrong' mildly entertaining, but certainly against any true spirit of interfaith tolerance. Better to just accept diverse opinions as just that, rahter than all the excessive argument.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
This is precisely something I read by doctors looking at Jerusalem Syndrome. That was simply that all Messiah claimants claim that all others are false. So the doctors prophesised correctly.

There are false Messiahs and Mahdi claimants. But that does not mean there is no real one, right?

Simply put, there is no proof beyond coincidence. And that isn't proof. Sorry.

I would say if there was one or two or three signs matched, and every other signs had failed, it would be probably coincidence. But if all the signs are matched, could it be denial as the Islamic sources states? Yes? Why, or why not?

Of course you have the right to believe it, as does anyone have the right to not believe it. If God did come to this planet, I would think his first order of business would be to clean it up.

Sure. Everyone has the right to believe or disbelieve.

This Mahdi - Wikipedia says the ruling time could be 7, 9, 11, or 19 years.
It is not exactly like that. The doubt between 7, and 9 years, is because, although the Bab was martyred on the Seventh Year, Bahaullah's mission did not begin until the year 9. The 19 year, is the year, Bahaullah declared openly He is the Promised One, and His Revelation supersedes the Bab's. There is no 11 year, in the legitimate recorded Traditions. But there is another One, that states, 10 years rule in Iraq. So, did it come to pass, because Bahaullah was exiled to Iraq, and stayed there 10 years
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Anything in particular you are referring to?
Nothing in particular I can recall just now, just that often I read stuff about other religions that Baha'i' say, and I think to myself, 'But that's what you're doing too.' The problems we face have to do with all of humanity. No group is immune from ignorance.

Psychologically, the mirror is the toughest place to look. Most people with much self-reflection know that.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
There are false Messiahs and Mahdi claimants. But that does not mean there is no real one, right?

That's definitely another possibility, and the one I believe in, not believing in prophets, messiahs, avatars, etc. at all. Many others would agree with me, including many Hindus, all Buddhists as far as I know, most of the nones, all the atheists for sure, most if not all of the agnostics. The non-prophet people outnumber the 'believing in a prophet' people at this time on this planet.

Course I could be wrong too. It's a matter of what individuals believe. It's beautifully diverse world out there, after all.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The first part?

Baha'u'llah has said - "Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependants."

This will now take time and Addul'baha has stated;

"The kingdom of peace, salvation, uprightness, and reconciliation is founded in the invisible world, and it will by degrees become manifest and apparent through the power of the Word of God!" As a result of consecrated human endeavour over decades, and indeed centuries, this spiritual reality is gradually expressed in physical form.

Where the world must head has been given;

Again Baha'u'llah has written; "We pray God--exalted be His glory--and cherish the hope that He may graciously assist the manifestations of affluence and power and the daysprings of sovereignty and glory, the kings of the earth--may God aid them through His strengthening grace--to establish the Lesser Peace. This, indeed, is the greatest means for insuring the tranquillity of the nations. It is incumbent upon the Sovereigns of the world--may God assist them--unitedly to hold fast unto this Peace, which is the chief instrument for the protection of all mankind. It is Our hope that they will arise to achieve what will be conducive to the well-being of man. It is their duty to convene an all-inclusive assembly, which either they themselves or their ministers will attend, and to enforce whatever measures are required to establish unity and concord amongst men. They must put away the weapons of war, and turn to the instruments of universal reconstruction. Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him. Arms and armaments will, then, be no more needed beyond that which is necessary to insure the internal security of their respective countries. If they attain unto this all-surpassing blessing, the people of each nation will pursue, with tranquillity and contentment, their own occupations, and the groanings and lamentations of most men would be silenced".

The Lesser peace is discussed here the Universal House of Justice - Attainment of the Unity of Nations and the Lesser Peace

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
It's all in degrees. like money. One cent and a million dollars are both money. As you already know I already consider any proselytising faith to be himsa as well. But yes it is in a matter of degrees, I'll give you that. Using the sword to convert would yield more bad karma than wielding the intellectual argument, but its still bad karma, in my view.

Baha'u'llah was asked about Hindus not wanting to convert others to their Faith.

Baha'u'llah answered that the Hindu should wish for his brother what he wished for himself and that if the Hindu was the recipient of an inward or outward gift or partook of heavenly food then it is his duty to share and inform and invite his friends with the utmost love and kindness but not to contend with them if they refuse but leave them to themselves.

In another similar question He said that Hindus were going against God's Will as the purpose of God is the education of souls so how could a Hindu deprive another person of truth that he himself cannot live without?

It's all about justice to Baha'u'llah. Not sharing with others what you yourself so much treasure is an injustice to them and gones against God's wish to educate humanity spiritually.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Nothing in particular I can recall just now, just that often I read stuff about other religions that Baha'i' say, and I think to myself, 'But that's what you're doing too.' The problems we face have to do with all of humanity. No group is immune from ignorance.

Psychologically, the mirror is the toughest place to look. Most people with much self-reflection know that.

Of course we are imperfect. So do you consider then things like infallibility a dogma?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Why does he leave it up to us to follow?

If he accepts diversity, why the statement?

We all have freedom of choice. You believe what you want and disbelieve what you want. God only 'offers' a better to help us but we can refuse.

I don't see what you're saying about diversity here in this context.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Baha'u'llah was asked about Hindus not wanting to convert others to their Faith.

Baha'u'llah answered that the Hindu should wish for his brother what he wished for himself and that if the Hindu was the recipient of an inward or outward gift or partook of heavenly food then it is his duty to share and inform and invite his friends with the utmost love and kindness but not to contend with them if they refuse but leave them to themselves.

In another similar question He said that Hindus were going against God's Will as the purpose of God is the education of souls so how could a Hindu deprive another person of truth that he himself cannot live without?

It's all about justice to Baha'u'llah. Not sharing with others what you yourself so much treasure is an injustice to them and gones against God's wish to educate humanity spiritually.


Where did you read this? According to Adrian, your prophet, his son, and his grandson said very little about Hinduism at all. In my searching I have found nothing at all.

Most Hindus simply don't want to share out of respect for the other religion, and in order to not cause confusion, and I somehow don't think we'd be listening to a Baha'i's advice on it. That's rather condescending, isn't it? You're now in a position to advise me? When did I ask for your advice?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah has said - "Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependants."

This will now take time and Addul'baha has stated;

"The kingdom of peace, salvation, uprightness, and reconciliation is founded in the invisible world, and it will by degrees become manifest and apparent through the power of the Word of God!" As a result of consecrated human endeavour over decades, and indeed centuries, this spiritual reality is gradually expressed in physical form.

Where the world must head has been given;

Again Baha'u'llah has written; "We pray God--exalted be His glory--and cherish the hope that He may graciously assist the manifestations of affluence and power and the daysprings of sovereignty and glory, the kings of the earth--may God aid them through His strengthening grace--to establish the Lesser Peace. This, indeed, is the greatest means for insuring the tranquillity of the nations. It is incumbent upon the Sovereigns of the world--may God assist them--unitedly to hold fast unto this Peace, which is the chief instrument for the protection of all mankind. It is Our hope that they will arise to achieve what will be conducive to the well-being of man. It is their duty to convene an all-inclusive assembly, which either they themselves or their ministers will attend, and to enforce whatever measures are required to establish unity and concord amongst men. They must put away the weapons of war, and turn to the instruments of universal reconstruction. Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him. Arms and armaments will, then, be no more needed beyond that which is necessary to insure the internal security of their respective countries. If they attain unto this all-surpassing blessing, the people of each nation will pursue, with tranquillity and contentment, their own occupations, and the groanings and lamentations of most men would be silenced".

The Lesser peace is discussed here the Universal House of Justice - Attainment of the Unity of Nations and the Lesser Peace

Regards Tony

Please summarize this.

Also, why does Bahaullah talk in thees and thous. It reminds me of King James but not familiar with the history behind that language. It confuses the mess out of me.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
We all have freedom of choice. You believe what you want and disbelieve what you want. God only 'offers' a better to help us but we can refuse.

Refuse? We just have different options. No one refuses to follow one religion and not another (if they don't have any bad qualms about their former religion). "I like both red and orange; and, if I had the choice I would choose red." I didn't refuse it. It's not something offered to me that I will have a consequence for if I don't take the offer. Rusal is a confrontational word in this context and abrahamic mindset.

With the diversity, abrahamic god-religions don't define diversity the way other religions do. You accept diversity under specific conditions. Diversity doesn't work that way. God sets up conditions. If you don't follow those conditions, you lose out on what he offers. You can make it sound less harsh by saying "we have a choice" but the harsh reality is that without making the choice for god, from a god-religion (abrahamic) point of view, we lose out.

I don't have a god that defines me and the love I have. It's not defined by god and any god thereof. So, by default, I would lose out if your god offered me a hand and I did not take it. (Not refuse just chose not to take it)

Think about it. How is that good that I refused god's hand?

If god was for diversity, why would he set up conditions that when broken, we would not have the benefit he is suppose to give?

Plus, I honestly can't see the fact that god is the foundation of a god-less religion regardless of what you believe. People believe a lot of things about others. Unless they ask the person directly with confirmation, it's just their opinion. Regardless of who they are prophet or not.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
1. Diversity does not mean having other people's prophets in your faith. Diversity has boundaries. Your unity is based on a different foundation than most other religions. Your diversity is based on one foundation. That's not how diversity works.

2. It's not diversity if everything is founded on god.



3. Acceptance at surface level. You view and define other people's religions from a Bahai perspective. That's not acceptance of the truth of another person's religions. You repeatedly proved this by your Bahaullah quotes (passive aggressive disagreement).



4. Again, I ask. Humanity? Just as we are all human beings?



5. You said people have yet to come to Bahaullah's teachings. Then you said people can choose whether they want to follow his teachings. Then you say Bahaullah came to reconcile other religions teachings. Then you say Bahai accepts people's teachings how they are.

Get it?



6. You said that without Bahaullah's teachings, people will always be at war. You continue to say we need prophets.

We do not. Understand?

Every human being is diverse and should be accepted unconditionally as an equal human being based solely on their humanity not race, religion, belief or non belief in God, cukture, custom, language, nationality etc.

Is that clear?

Point 6. I never said without Baha'u'llah's Teachings people would always be at war. You're not reading my posts at all.

I clearly said many, many times that people would establish world peace and abolish war by themselves, without Baha'is or Baha'u'llah. Please note this down somewhere because we keep going over it and I repeat - people without Baha'u'llah will establish world peace and abolish wars likely soon.

Point 2. Diversity embraces all people, all humanity no preconditions of belief in God. We accept all humanity as brothers and dusters and it doesn't matter to a Baha'i what they believe or dont believe. They are all seen as equal fellow humans.

The need of Prophets - we believe that learning never ends, that humanity will advance and as the need arises new Teachers will be sent to guide us.

Point 5.

People are free to reject Baha'u'llah and they have for over a century. This is not in our hands but the choice of the people.

He offered a solution that's all. However people choose to worship or pray or practise their religion, we accept that is their diversity and choice.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
So many Abrahamic prophecies, like the end of the world on certain dates, have just failed miserably.

Haha. This one is a great example. The end of the world was supposed to happen in 1999. Prince predicted it. People actually bought survival food. Bible comments and shows were on the air constantly. Every other person talked about the world ending. No exaggeration.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Every human being is diverse and should be accepted unconditionally as an equal human being based solely on their humanity not race, religion, belief or non belief in God, cukture, custom, language, nationality etc.

No. You didn't answer the question. Humanity as in human beings?

Race, religion, belief, culture, custom, language, and nationality shapes humanity. What is humanity without these things?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Point 6. I never said without Baha'u'llah's Teachings people would always be at war. You're not reading my posts at all.

I'm reflecting on your first posts. The rest of them are repeats and quotes from Bahaullah. You said that people haven't accept Bahaullah's teachings. People add to doctrines and wars are caused because of it.

If not, how can greater peace happen if you didn't believe it could happen without the teachings of Bahaullah?

Also, again I asked before. If greater peace does not depend on a single religion, why follow Bahai or any religion for that matter?
 
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