Trump asked Comey not to investigate Flynn

sun rise · May 16, 2017

Some of you should hang out with my friends and experience the difference between our complaisant attitude before 2016 which we did get many more votes just not in the right places and now when we're fired up more than I can remember including the 1960's.

But if you're apathetic about the cancerous slime mold eating away at American ideals and strength in Washington and destroying our future, there's not much I can say except don't try to bring down those fired up to change things.

Sonofason · May 16, 2017

Wirey said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/...ey-trump-flynn-russia-investigation.html?_r=0

Impeachable?

No, not impeachable.

sun rise · May 16, 2017

And this kind of $%*#( must be stopped

Sonofason · May 16, 2017

sunrise123 said:
The right wing lemmings are following him over the cliff. They won't impeach him. Following the Democratic landslide next year, it will be a different matter.

As an aside, consider what would have happened if President Hillary Clinton had done what he did given what they were saying about her alleged misdeeds and what should happen before the election.

You're dreaming. Intelligent Americans see right through what the democrats are doing. Democrats will lose seats in the House and Senate.

tytlyf · May 16, 2017

Sonofason said:
You're dreaming. Intelligent Americans see right through what the democrats are doing. Democrats will lose seats in the House and Senate.

Do you think "repealing and replacing" Obamacare will work in the midterms? I don't see why not?
That line has been good the past few elections.

Shad · May 17, 2017

Wirey said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/...ey-trump-flynn-russia-investigation.html?_r=0

Impeachable?

Speculation based on hearsay from a staff member of a discredit man. Funny. Comey is holding in his hands what he would call clear intent to interfere with his investigation and open coercion yet does not report it back in Feb to anyone and only mentioned it after being fired..... Clear this must be due to the "lack of intent" that no prosecutor would take up the case......

Falvlun · May 17, 2017

Shad said:
Speculation based on hearsay from a staff member of a discredit man. Funny. Comey is holding in his hands what he would call clear intent to interfere with his investigation and open coercion yet does not report it back in Feb to anyone and only mentioned it after being fired..... Clear this must be due to the "lack of intent" that no prosecutor would take up the case......

Or, perhaps, that the investigation is still ongoing and the FBI has not yet fully presented its findings. The article stated that Comey didn't share this with others because he did not want it to influence them in their investigations. However, firing him forced his hand to a) make sure he bequeaths all the information he had and b) to protect himself from false allegations.

Falvlun · May 17, 2017

I think Trump is worse for our foreign relations. He is unpredictable, inexperienced, and volatile. He doesn't have to get anything passed in Congress in order to jeopardize our relationship with our allies or to flame tensions with our enemies. He just has to flap his ignorant mouth.

I judge his domestic threat as less, since we've already seen how incompetent he is. Yes, he degrades public trust in government, which sucks, and he will get some stinky poo through with a motivated Congress, but ultimately, we have the means to control him, at least when he's not tripping over his own twitter account.

Pence I judge as less a threat for our foreign relations as he seems to know how to behave in polite company. He will not make idiotic gaffes, like hanging up on Australia's Prime Minister, or unwittingly sharing codeword level intelligence with our frenemy. He will probably soothe some international fears just by acting like a normal President, even if he is a Sith Lord behind the scenes.

However, with a Republican Congress, I think this dude will wreak some havoc on our domestic affairs. He knows how to play the game. Heck, he knows what game it is he's actually playing. He'll be able to organize and administrate. I worry what damage to our country will be done with Pence in charge.

So, I'm conflicted.

Shad · May 17, 2017

Falvlun said:
Or, perhaps, that the investigation is still ongoing and the FBI has not yet fully presented its findings.

No it is a new investigation of Comey, the case and conclusion

The article stated that Comey didn't share this with others because he did not want it to influence them in their investigations.

Bull. He knows it is hearsay and it useless in court. Think about it.... He claims to have evidence of Trump's coercion and intent to stop the Flynn investigation yet says nothing for 3 months.

However, firing him forced his hand to a) make sure he bequeaths all the information he had and b) to protect himself from false allegations.

No he used it as backlash for his dismissal and to stir up a **** storm as the media grabs at any chance to trash Trump be the story real or fake.

Falvlun · May 17, 2017

Shad said:
No it is a new investigation of Comey, the case and conclusion

There's also a Russian investigation going on.

Shad said:
Bull. He knows it is hearsay and it useless in court. Think about it.... He claims to have evidence of Trump's coercion and intent to stop the Flynn investigation yet says nothing for 3 months.

According to the article, the notes of an FBI agent are generally considered acceptable evidence.

But Trump can just release those tapes and put it all to rest.

Shad said:
No he used it as backlash for his dismissal and to stir up a **** storm as the media grabs at any chance to trash Trump be the story real or fake.

Comey didn't create this **** storm. Trump did by firing him. I know it must suck that's trump is so embarrassingly incompetent, but really, it doesn't help your argument when you attempt to deflect the blame from the obvious source of all this crap--- Trump himself.

Shad · May 17, 2017

Falvlun said:
There's also a Russian investigation going on.

Which has not turned up a single piece of evidence in months linked to Trump himself.

According to the article, the notes of an FBI agent are generally considered acceptable evidence.

No it is hearsay as the source is from a staffer of Comey. Comey has not released the actual memo.

But Trump can just release those tapes and put it all to rest.

Innocent until proven guilty? Heard of it?

Comey didn't create this **** storm. Trump did by firing him.

No Trump sowed the seeds. The media created the storm

I know it must suck that's trump is so embarrassingly incompetent, but really, it doesn't help your argument when you attempt to deflect the blame from the obvious source of all this crap--- Trump himself.

Did I say Trump is blameless? Nope. I am pointing out that the firing of a very controversial figure should include what this figure did and didn't do. To people obsessed with Trump none of that matters as the goal is to get rid of him by any means necessary be it real or not.

Falvlun · May 17, 2017

Shad said:
Which has not turned up a single piece of evidence in months linked to Trump himself.

Do FBI investigations normally release information piecemeal? That doesn't really seem likely. The investigation isn't completed yet. At that time they will present all the evidence (should it exist). I don't know why you'd expect evidence to be dropped like breadcrumbs.

Shad said:
No it is hearsay as the source is from a staffer of Comey. Comey has not released the actual memo.

Ah, ok. So Comey needs to release his notes and Trump needs to release his tapes.

Shad said:
Innocent until proven guilty? Heard of it?

Yup. But I'm not sure what this has to do with Trump releasing evidence that he claims proves his version of the story.

Let's recap:
Trump fires Comey. In doing so, he makes the claim that Comey told him on three separate occasions that he was not under investigation. Comey denies such a claim. Trump claims he has tapes which prove Comey wrong. Comey claims he has memos which prove Trump wrong.

None of this would have occurred if Trump didn't include the baffling statement in the dismissal letter-- it was apropos of nothing.

If both have evidence of their version, they ought to release it.

You're right: we shouldn't just accept Comey's version of events. But neither should we just accept Trump's.

Shad said:
No Trump sowed the seeds. The media created the storm

I'm not really sure how this helps you, or Trump. Maybe just don't sow the seeds?

You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.

Shad said:
Did I say Trump is blameless? Nope. I am pointing out that the firing of a very controversial figure should include what this figure did and didn't do. To people obsessed with Trump none of that matters as the goal is to get rid of him by any means necessary be it real or not.

No, it matters. I think it would have helped Trump if he had stuck with the narrative first supplied: he was counseled by his DOJ to dismiss Comey due to his unprofessional handling of the Clinton email investigation and his public persona. Instead, Trump himself muddied the waters by including the statement in the dismissal letter regarding the Russian investigation, and giving interviews and sending tweets that bolster the idea that Comey's firing had to do with that investigation--- which naturally should raise some concerns.

Cassandra · May 17, 2017

Falvlun said:
I think Trump is worse for our foreign relations. He is unpredictable, inexperienced, and volatile. He doesn't have to get anything passed in Congress in order to jeopardize our relationship with our allies or to flame tensions with our enemies. He just has to flap his ignorant mouth..

Trump is inexperienced that is true, but he is learning.

The real scandal however is not Trump messing up, but this constant leaking of his confident conversations which really harm the interest of the USA.

For instance, I am very glad that Trump is seeking collaboration with Russia over ISIS rather than starting the next cold war and confrontation in Syria, which is really very dangerous. The accusation of sharing classified information is really bull. The real scandal is that his confidential talks with Russian leaders was railroaded by leaking. Earlier his conversations with Canadian and Australian leaders was leaked.

If the president of the USA is undermined this way, he can not function properly and that harms the USA. It is important that the leaks are found and the people fired.

His White House spokesman also seems to be a problem. He is the one that advised to fire Comey. And he has a habit of prematurely taking positions without checking with his boss. Trump was quite right that it is his call to decide what information he shared with other leaders, but his aid already denied it. That is bad.

I am not a Trump fan but the dirty games Democrats are now playing does not differ from the earlier games of Republicans and thus it is them that are losing credibility. I doubt this will serve them. The Dems too have been a disappointment to many. The thing they seem to most care about is pushing minority interests, like homosexuals and immigrants.

Basically with both parties losing decency they endanger the whole system. That people vote for an outsider as Trump is a sign people are fed up with both parties. Making him tumble will not restore confidence either. Trump too has been failing. He has to learn really quick to survive.

The most distasteful figure in the whole I find John McCain. He is rumored to be on the paylist of George Soros. And indeed he behaves like he is. A deep inquiry in the dealings of people like the Koch Brothers (TeaParty), George Soros, and Adelson who sponsor all kinds of lobby and activist groups would be an more important task for the FBI. This kind of undemocratic influence is what endangers democracy more then whether the president leaned on the FBI. I am sure all presidents do, but the ones that have a little more experience let others do it so they can feign they knew nothing about it and have a scapegoat to sacrifice to the media.

metis · May 17, 2017

Wirey said:
Impeachable?

Not likely-- unfortunately.

Kilgore Trout · May 17, 2017

Sunstone said:
I don't hold out much hope for the Democrats to come to our rescue in 2018.

That's like asking the cheetah to come to your rescue when you're being mauled by a leopard.

Nous · May 17, 2017

Wirey said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/...ey-trump-flynn-russia-investigation.html?_r=0

Impeachable?

There will be more information of Trump's wrongdoing to come, as Comey was a prodigious memo-maker, and we haven't even begun to hear the details of "the Russia thing". But even on the basis of merely what we know now (Trump requesting Comey to cease the investigation of Flynn, then firing Comey for continuing the investigation of collusion with Russia), Trump's actions are clearly an instance of obstruction of justice, which is a federal offense, and certainly meets the definition of an impeachable "high crimes and misdemeanors". Obstruction of justice was the first article of impeachment against Nixon, and everyone seems to agree that he would have been impeached and removed from office had he not resigned. Nixon's obstruction of justice in firing Cox is no more serious than what Trump has done--according to what little we know so far of what Trump has done.

Shad · May 17, 2017

Falvlun said:
Do FBI investigations normally release information piecemeal?

Considering it has released information piecemeal already yes it does.

That doesn't really seem likely. The investigation isn't completed yet.

Isn't complete based on what? If you put forward that the FBI does not release information you have no basis for your point due to /drum roll, a lack of information.

At that time they will present all the evidence (should it exist). I don't know why you'd expect evidence to be dropped like breadcrumbs.

Should exist? You are already putting forward there is evidence yet say there is no information of said evidence.....

Ah, ok. So Comey needs to release his notes and Trump needs to release his tapes.

Nope. Innocent until proven guilty. Comey should release his note than proper authorities can issue a warrant for the tapes of the specific time and place this so-called conversation took place in order to corroborate the claim.

Yup. But I'm not sure what this has to do with Trump releasing evidence that he claims proves his version of the story.

There is a claim that Trump did X with no evidence he did X. Trump is under no obligation to show if he is in fact innocent. You do not seem to know how the principle works.

"Please release the information you are not a Chinese agent. I will wait"

Let's recap:
Trump fires Comey. In doing so, he makes the claim that Comey told him on three separate occasions that he was not under investigation. Comey denies such a claim. Trump claims he has tapes which prove Comey wrong. Comey claims he has memos which prove Trump wrong.

So?

None of this would have occurred if Trump didn't include the baffling statement in the dismissal letter-- it was apropos of nothing.

Sure he made a mess. However a mess does not mean he is guilty of anything.

If both have evidence of their version, they ought to release it.

Irrelevant as there is no investigation on why he was fired. Trump is not obligated to tell you why Comey is fired. It would be nice to know.

You're right: we shouldn't just accept Comey's version of events. But neither should we just accept Trump's.

Exactly. Yet the drive to see Trump as guilty of something overrides your point.

I'm not really sure how this helps you, or Trump. Maybe just don't sow the seeds?

Kinda hard when the media takes hearsay as undisputed fact from a man they tarred and feathered months ago. Trump could stay silent for the next 3 and 1/2 years. The media will still spin that into something.

You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.

Yes. However said whirlwind is based on speculation and hearsay treated as Gospel. At times feeding such a whirlwind is useful to further discredit those crying about rain and thinking it is a hurricane. The MSM has done well in being baited into putting forward false stories and discrediting itself.

No, it matters. I think it would have helped Trump if he had stuck with the narrative first supplied: he was counseled by his DOJ to dismiss Comey due to his unprofessional handling of the Clinton email investigation and his public persona. Instead, Trump himself muddied the waters by including the statement in the dismissal letter regarding the Russian investigation, and giving interviews and sending tweets that bolster the idea that Comey's firing had to do with that investigation--- which naturally should raise some concerns.[/QUOTE]

metis · May 17, 2017

Cassandra said:
I am not a Trump fan but the dirty games Democrats are now playing does not differ from the earlier games of Republicans and thus it is them that are losing credibility.

Which "dirty games"? The "main attractions" thus far have bipartisan concern, and going in the direction with the Democratic proposal of having an independent investigation would help take politics out of the analysis stage at least.

Cassandra said:
The accusation of sharing classified information is really bull.

I don't know how you came up with that because, not only are many of the Republicans quite concerned, but we hear that some of our allies are as well.

By divulging this classified intelligence that came from Israel, now ISIS may be able to trace the source for the Israelis, thus jeopardizing the lives and the family's live of the informant(s). Heck, we didn't even share the Israeli intelligence with our own European allies for security reasons.

Nous · May 17, 2017

Cassandra said:
Trump is inexperienced that is true, but he is learning.

The following facts have only become more colorful since David Brooks wrote this in March of last year:

Donald Trump is epically unprepared to be president. He has no realistic policies, no advisers, no capacity to learn. His vast narcissism makes him a closed fortress. He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know and he’s uninterested in finding out. He insults the office Abraham Lincoln once occupied by running for it with less preparation than most of us would undertake to buy a sofa.

Trump is perhaps the most dishonest person to run for high office in our lifetimes. All politicians stretch the truth, but Trump has a steady obliviousness to accuracy.

This week, the Politico reporters Daniel Lippman, Darren Samuelsohn and Isaac Arnsdorf fact-checked 4.6 hours of Trump speeches and press conferences. They found more than five dozen untrue statements, or one every five minutes.

“His remarks represent an extraordinary mix of inaccurate claims about domestic and foreign policy and personal and professional boasts that rarely measure up when checked against primary sources,” they wrote.

He is a childish man running for a job that requires maturity. He is an insecure boasting little boy whose desires were somehow arrested at age 12. He surrounds himself with sycophants. “You can always tell when the king is here,” Trump’s butler told Jason Horowitz in a recent Times profile. He brags incessantly about his alleged prowess, like how far he can hit a golf ball. “Do I hit it long? Is Trump strong?” he asks.

In some rare cases, political victors do not deserve our respect. George Wallace won elections, but to endorse those outcomes would be a moral failure.

And so it is with Trump.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/18/opinion/no-not-trump-not-ever.html?src=recg&_r=0

The real scandal however is not Trump messing up

The "real scandal" is not that Trump just "messed something up," but that he committed at least one federal felony in less than a month in office.

The accusation of sharing classified information is really bull.

Not even Trump or McMaster denied that Trump shared highly classified information with the Russians.

His White House spokesman also seems to be a problem. He is the one that advised to fire Comey.

Who advised him to fire Comey? Why didn't Trump say that during his interview with Lester Holt? Why did Trump admit that his utmost concern in his decision to fire Comey was because of "the Russian thing"?

Falvlun · May 17, 2017

Shad said:
Considering it has released information piecemeal already yes it does.

I'm a little confused by your argument. You seem to be simultaneously claiming that there is no evidence and that the FBI has released evidence.

I was under the impression that any evidence we have so far has been obtained from non-FBI sources, as the FBI seems to consistently say that they cannot comment since it is an ongoing investigation. If I am wrong, well, I'm not sure how that helps you: that means we have FBI confirmed evidence.

Shad said:
Isn't complete based on what? If you put forward that the FBI does not release information you have no basis for your point due to /drum roll, a lack of information.

The FBI has confirmed that there is a Russian investigation, among others, and that it's ongoing.

Shad said:
Should exist? You are already putting forward there is evidence yet say there is no information of said evidence.....

You misread that: I said "should it exist". That means "if it exists".

I think we do have evidence from non-FBI sources, as well as what we know regarding Flynn, Manafort, Carter, etc.

But like I said, if I'm wrong and there's all this FBI confirmed evidence out there, then great!

Shad said:
Nope. Innocent until proven guilty. Comey should release his note than proper authorities can issue a warrant for the tapes of the specific time and place this so-called conversation took place in order to corroborate the claim.

There is a claim that Trump did X with no evidence he did X. Trump is under no obligation to show if he is in fact innocent. You do not seem to know how the principle works.
"Please release the information you are not a Chinese agent. I will wait"

This literally has nothing to do with innocent until proven guilty. Both parties are accusing each other of things they both deny and they both claim to have evidence proving their point. Seems like there is an awfully easy way to settle the matter and I don't know why you'd resist that.

You seem to be ignoring that Trump has accused Comey as well. Trump and Comey are both the accused as well as the accuser. Why should only Trump be protected by your absurd application of "innocent until proven guilty"?

Shad said:
Sure he made a mess. However a mess does not mean he is guilty of anything.

I'm not saying he is guilty. I am saying that his actions are suspicious and warrant investigation, which you seem opposed to.

Shad said:
Irrelevant as there is no investigation on why he was fired. Trump is not obligated to tell you why Comey is fired. It would be nice to know.

Trump didn't have to tell us, but the fact is he did, and his explanation raised questions.

Shad said:
Exactly. Yet the drive to see Trump as guilty of something overrides your point.

I'm advocating that both sides present their evidence. Only you are being one-sided in this.

Shad said:
Kinda hard when the media takes hearsay as undisputed fact from a man they tarred and feathered months ago. Trump could stay silent for the next 3 and 1/2 years. The media will still spin that into something.

The media will always be looking for scintillating stories. Trump shouldn't make it so easy for them. Believe me, I would ignore all the tan-suit, saluting-with-coffee, born-in-Kenya "scandals" that a bored media would have to drum up if Trump would keep quiet. And furthermore, unlike "terrorist fist bumps", these stories swirling around Trump-- and continually fed by him-- are actually relevant.

Shad said:
Yes. However said whirlwind is based on speculation and hearsay treated as Gospel. At times feeding such a whirlwind is useful to further discredit those crying about rain and thinking it is a hurricane. The MSM has done well in being baited into putting forward false stories and discrediting itself.

I think you are giving MSM too much credit here. Without Trump continually fueling it, the media dumpster fire would burn itself out rehashing the same old speculations. But as it is, something big happens, media speculates, then something happens that confirms the speculations-- often it's even a Trump tweet or statement-- and then before the first big thing can even die down, Trump goes and one ups it again.

Trump asked Comey not to investigate Flynn

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