Jesus, the Christian Myth

MJFlores · May 14, 2017

Rick B said:
Figures you would dodge. GNT is not a word-for-word translation but paraphrases to help the "unlearned". It is no surprise that you fall back on the NWT to avoid a coherent respond. NWT was produced by a sister group of INC - the JW's - changing the actual words of the original languages to accommodate their false teaching. You just can't help yourself.

Sister group - the Jehovah's witnesses?
Sorry the Jehovah's Witnesses originated from the US.

Classification Nontrinitarian, restorationist
Governance Governing Body
Structure Hierarchical [1]
Region Worldwide
Founder Charles Taze Russell [2]
Origin 1870s
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
Branched from Bible Student movement
Congregations 119,485
Members 8.3 million
Official website www.jw.org
Statistics from 2017 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses[3]

While the Reformed Baptist - Protestant
Reformed Baptists (sometimes known as Calvinistic Baptists[1]) are Baptists that hold to a Calvinist soteriology.[2] They can trace their history through the early modern Particular Baptists of England.

The first Reformed Baptist church was formed in the 1630s.[1] The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith was written along Reformed Baptist lines.[1]

The Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) on the other hand is from the Philippines (which is in the Far East).

We do not translate the Bible but use the available versions the Catholic church and Protestant churches.

It does not really matter to the Iglesia ni Cristo which bible versions are to be used for as long the translations are done in good faith.

The Good News Bible is
Full name Good News Bible
Other names Good News Translation, Today's English Version
Abbreviation GNB (or GNT/TEV)
OT published 1976
NT published 1966
Complete Bible
published 1976
Textual basis Medium Correspondence to Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece 27th edition
Translation type Dynamic equivalence
Publisher Bible Societies, HarperCollins
Copyright American Bible Society 1966, 1971, 1976, 1979 (Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha), 1992; Anglicizations British and Foreign Bible Society 1994

If the Reformed Baptist Church have a faithfully translated bible, we would use them also, like the NWT

Full name New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
Abbreviation NWT
Language 149 languages[1][2][3]
NT published 1950
Complete Bible
published 1961
Textual basis OT: Biblia Hebraica.
NT: Westcott & Hort.
Translation type Formal Equivalence with occasional ventures intoDynamic equivalence [4][5]
Copyright Copyright 1961, 1970, 1981, 1984, 2013 Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania
Copies printed 217,844,067 [6]

The Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) have differing beliefs with Jehovah's Witnesses. Their Jesus is different, your Jesus is different and our Lord Jesus Christ is different from the JW and yours.

The Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs in Jesus Christ are:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", and that his life began in heaven.
He is described as God's first creation and the "exact representation of God" but is believed to be a separate entity and not part of a Trinity.
Jesus is said to have been used by God in the creation of all other things.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that theArchangel, Michael, "the Word" of John 1:1, and wisdom personified in Proverbs 8 refer to Jesus in his pre-human existence and that he resumed these identities after his ascension to heaven following his death and resurrection.
His birth on earth was accomplished when he willingly allowed himself to be transferred, by God, from heaven to the womb of the virgin, Mary
While on earth, Jesus was executed as a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins, becoming the "eternal father" to the human family

The Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) beliefs in Jesus Christ are:

Jesus Christ as the Son of God:

“And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, ‘Surely this man was the Son of God!’” (Mark 15:39, NIV, emphasis mine).

Jesus Christ as our Lord:

“So, all the people of Israel should know this truly: God has made Jesus — the man you nailed to the cross — both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36, New Century Version, emphasis mine)

Jesus Christ as our Savior:

“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had murdered by hanging Him on a tree. God exalted this man to His right hand as ruler and Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 5:30-31, Holman Christian Standard Bible, emphasis mine)

Jesus Christ as the Mediator between man and the one true God:

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (I Timothy 2:5, NIV, emphasis mine)

That there is only one true God, the Father, thus, Jesus is not the true God, but the Son of the one true God. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself attests that He is indeed a man in nature:

“As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.” (John 8:40 NIV, emphasis mine).

Thus, the Iglesia ni Cristo reject the teaching that Christ is God, or that he was/is Archangel Micheal, or the Trinity or any doctrine which is not found in the Bible.

MJFlores · May 14, 2017

KenS said:
I really don't think you know what God DID and what He went through to secure your salvation.

I know what God did:

John 3:16-18 New International Version (NIV)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

God gave his one and only Son. - that is what he did
God is the giver hence not the Son
The Son is the given hence not God

If Christ teachings are not clear it is because people do not believe him and in John 3:16-18 they would not have eternal life and is condemned already.

It was not worded the F-HS gave his one and only S
It was not worded that way
God gave his one and only Son

Assuming the S emptied himself
Then the F-HS are the gods because the S emptied himself
Then there was no Trinity for 33 years as the S emptied himself

Rick B · May 14, 2017

@MJFlores
Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith as the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

The Granville-Sharp's Rule states that the word God and Savior necessarily refers to the same person - Jesus Christ. According to the original language (Koine Greek) the grammar makes the fact of Christ's deity incontestable.

If you have the audacity to deny this long-standing rule you must go to the original language and demonstrate how this rule misinterprets the Greek manuscripts.

Kenny · May 14, 2017

MJFlores said:
I know what God did:

John 3:16-18 New International Version (NIV)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Yes, that is the Headline... but it seems you really don't understand all that He did for you. I even wonder if you think that man is lower than the angels.

MJFlores · May 14, 2017

Rick B said:
@MJFlores
Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith as the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

The Granville-Sharp's Rule states that the word God and Savior necessarily refers to the same person - Jesus Christ. According to the original language (Koine Greek) the grammar makes the fact of Christ's deity incontestable.

If you have the audacity to deny this long-standing rule you must go to the original language and demonstrate how this rule misinterprets the Greek manuscripts.

Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith as the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

Question: If Jesus Christ is the great God and Savior, assuming you are correct - what happened to the Father and HS? No longer great God and Savior? Wouldn't be apt if it was worded our great God and Savior, the Father, Son and HS? The two were taken out of the scene, isn't that right? Would that suppose that Oneness Pentecostalism is correct?

"Oneness theology sees that when the one and omnipresent God manifests or reveals himself, it is in a personal way. Oneness theology sees the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one transcendent, personal, omnipresent God manifesting himself in three personal and distinct manifestations or forms to redeem and sanctify sinful and lost humanity, and also that all the fullness of the deity resides fully in the person of Christ."
Oneness Pentecostalism - Wikipedia

To make things concise:
According to them: Jesus is the Father, the Son, and HS all rolled into one.

Now this would seem hilarious and the atheists would have a day poking with this concept. And they did:

Now that doesn't make sense, and it is much more like a joke.

So what is my point of view on these verses?

It deals with the conjunction AND
and Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

used to join two words,phrases, parts of sentences, or related statementstogether:

AND - conjunction
Ann and Jim
boys and girls
knives and forks
We were wet and tired.
We kissed and hugged each other.
Tidy up your room. And don't forget to make your bed!

It is like comparing an

Now being Scriptural not saying things on my own, how do the Bible correlate the two?

“From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. Acts 13:23

The Lord God was the one who gave
And the one who was given was the Lord Jesus Christ

Rick B · May 14, 2017

MJFlores said:
Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith as the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

Question: If Jesus Christ is the great God and Savior, assuming you are correct - what happened to the Father and HS? No longer great God and Savior? Wouldn't be apt if it was worded our great God and Savior, the Father, Son and HS? The two were taken out of the scene, isn't that right? Would that suppose that Oneness Pentecostalism is correct?

"Oneness theology sees that when the one and omnipresent God manifests or reveals himself, it is in a personal way. Oneness theology sees the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one transcendent, personal, omnipresent God manifesting himself in three personal and distinct manifestations or forms to redeem and sanctify sinful and lost humanity, and also that all the fullness of the deity resides fully in the person of Christ."
Oneness Pentecostalism - Wikipedia

To make things concise:
According to them: Jesus is the Father, the Son, and HS all rolled into one.

Now this would seem hilarious and the atheists would have a day poking with this concept. And they did:
View attachment 17280

Now that doesn't make sense, and it is much more like a joke.

So what is my point of view on these verses?

It deals with the conjunction AND
and Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

used to join two words,phrases, parts of sentences, or related statementstogether:

AND - conjunction
Ann and Jim
boys and girls
knives and forks
We were wet and tired.
We kissed and hugged each other.
Tidy up your room. And don't forget to make your bed!

It is like comparing an
View attachment 17282

Now being Scriptural not saying things on my own, how do the Bible correlate the two?

“From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. Acts 13:23

The Lord God was the one who gave
And the one who was given was the Lord Jesus Christ

To answer your question. Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal Persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

MJFlores · May 14, 2017

Rick B said:
To answer your question. Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal Persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

That is Oneness Pentecostalism

So the Father is the Son and HS?
Isn't that teaching funny?

I think God is only one and Jesus mentioned this too.

Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Not two, not three, not many but our Lord God is one. And what do the Israelites believe who is that one God?

Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Malachi 2:10

And even the apostles preached of one God and who is that one God the apostles preached?

one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:6

May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones. 1 Thessalonians 3:13

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep one self from being polluted by the world. James 1:27

Now that makes sense than what other people are saying

Rick B · May 15, 2017

When I presented Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 in which Paul and Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, clearly present Christ as deity, I included for further instruction and substantiation the Granville-Sharp's Rule. ( to which you did not respond) This in no way can be construed as being Oneness Pentecostalism since I have been consistently arguing for Trinitarianism.

Trinitarian Theologians describe the Triune God as both the Ontological and Economic Trinity.

The Ontological Trinity is defined as the "being" or nature of God where the attributes and essence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal, focusing on who God is. In John 10:30 when Jesus states "I and the Father are one" He is stating they are of one nature.

We are in agreement as to the deity of the Father. I have briefly presented Christ being given the NAME of God - I Am ego eimi. There are numerous Scriptural references which also assign the title YHWH to Him. This argument is also intended to establish the Scriptural testimony concerning the deity of Christ.

The Economic Trinity is discussed by Theologians as the unique relationship within the Trinity. Each Person has taken to Themselves specific roles regarding their work in the created order. For example in the elect's salvation the Father chooses a certain people, the Son redeems them in His substitutionary death and mediatorial work, and the Holy Spirit convicts, regenerates, and unites them to Christ.

MJFlores · May 15, 2017

Rick B said:
When I presented Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 in which Paul and Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, clearly present Christ as deity, I included for further instruction and substantiation the Granville-Sharp's Rule. ( to which you did not respond) This in no way can be construed as being Oneness Pentecostalism since I have been consistently arguing for Trinitarianism.

Trinitarian Theologians describe the Triune God as both the Ontological and Economic Trinity.

The Ontological Trinity is defined as the "being" or nature of God where the attributes and essence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal, focusing on who God is. In John 10:30 when Jesus states "I and the Father are one" He is stating they are of one nature.

We are in agreement as to the deity of the Father. I have briefly presented Christ being given the NAME of God - I Am ego eimi. There are numerous Scriptural references which also assign the title YHWH to Him. This argument is also intended to establish the Scriptural testimony concerning the deity of Christ.

The Economic Trinity is discussed by Theologians as the unique relationship within the Trinity. Each Person has taken to Themselves specific roles regarding their work in the created order. For example in the elect's salvation the Father chooses a certain people, the Son redeems them in His substitutionary death and mediatorial work, and the Holy Spirit convicts, regenerates, and unites them to Christ.

the Granville-Sharp's Rule. ( to which you did not respond)

I would respond to the familiar the Bible alone anything outside of that 4 corners is foreign to me. And I have responded with illustrations.

Please review my post and check if there are untruths on my statement.

Because I believe that there is only one true God, the Father, thus, Jesus is not the true God, but the Son of the one true God. The Lord Jesus Christ Hiself explicitly proclaimed that the father alone is the true God and He is the Son of the one true God, whom the Father has sent:

“Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You...
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:1,3 NKJV)

To attain eternal life is to believe that the Father is the only true God, and Jesus is the one sent by the one true God. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself attests that He is indeed a man in nature:

“As it is, you are determined to kill me, A MAN WHO HAS TOLD YOU THE TRUTH that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.” (John 8:40 NIV, emphasis mine).

The Bible clearly tells us that “God is not man” and “man is not God”:

“I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: FOR I AM GOD, AND NOT MAN; the Holy One in the midst of thee; and I will not come in wrath.” (Hosea 11:9 ASV,emphasis mine)

“Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet THOU ART MAN, AND NOT GOD, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God.” (Ezekiel 28:2 ASV, emphasis mine)

Thus, I and the others, reject the teaching that Christ is God.

Rick B · May 15, 2017

OK thanks for the cartoons and non-responses. Off you go.

MJFlores · May 15, 2017

Think about it.

The Jesus you inherited is different from the Jesus in the Bible.

Saw the difference so I heard and followed.

Will believing a wrong Jesus save that person?
Most likely not.

Rick B · May 17, 2017

MJFlores said:
the Granville-Sharp's Rule. ( to which you did not respond)

I would respond to the familiar the Bible alone anything outside of that 4 corners is foreign to me. And I have responded with illustrations.

Please review my post and check if there are untruths on my statement.

Because I believe that there is only one true God, the Father, thus, Jesus is not the true God, but the Son of the one true God. The Lord Jesus Christ Hiself explicitly proclaimed that the father alone is the true God and He is the Son of the one true God, whom the Father has sent:

“Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You...
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:1,3 NKJV)

To attain eternal life is to believe that the Father is the only true God, and Jesus is the one sent by the one true God. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself attests that He is indeed a man in nature:

“As it is, you are determined to kill me, A MAN WHO HAS TOLD YOU THE TRUTH that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.” (John 8:40 NIV, emphasis mine).

The Bible clearly tells us that “God is not man” and “man is not God”:

“I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: FOR I AM GOD, AND NOT MAN; the Holy One in the midst of thee; and I will not come in wrath.” (Hosea 11:9 ASV,emphasis mine)

“Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet THOU ART MAN, AND NOT GOD, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God.” (Ezekiel 28:2 ASV, emphasis mine)

Thus, I and the others, reject the teaching that Christ is God.

I have thought about your request to review your post and to help you better your debate skills I have some brief observations/criticisms to offer.

1 Back off all the pictures, gifs, cartoons, etc. It will be seen as sophomoric or childish.

2 Don't present unscholarly resources as your source of authority. For example, if it is your intention to present your position as a compelling (Biblical) argument offering men like Thomas Jefferson, who wrote his own Bible, James K. Morrow, sci-fi writer, Dan Brown, "thriller" novelist, and H. G. Wells, British fiction writer who, according to Enc. Britannica, "None of his contemporaries did more to encourage revolt against Christian tenets...". These are not, by any stretch, Biblical or Christian theological authorities. So for you to use them to support INC beliefs or to attempt to refute opposing argumentation is not valid. Rather it is counter productive.

3 Further study needs to be undertaken in Church History to be able to present factual evidence. For example, you stated or implied that the NRSVCE and Roman Catholicism predated Nicea. This is a patently false statement. As a matter of fact your whole understanding of the history of Nicea is skewed as I mentioned earlier. To demonstrate, if I was to state: The Roman Emperor Constantine called a council of 318 Bishops together to bring unity to the catholic church and that there were no Roman Catholics there what would be your response? I know what it would be but my statement is 100% accurate.

4 The INC has instructed it's adherents to close their ears and refuse to accept the definition and stated beliefs of Trinitarians and present what the INC self-defines as to what Trinitarianism is. This method is simple equivocation and does not stand up to honest, rational scrutiny, as a response, in any dialogue or debate.

5 Finally to state "you believe something that is not in the Bible" without engaging the text and context is on the level of saying "Oh yeah?" You must demonstrate some level of knowledge regarding the intention of the original authors in what they wrote.

These few brief suggestions drawn from your posts demonstrate the failure on the part of INC to provide a coherent, logical, meaningful, and consistent argument. And a wise man has said "inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument".

MJFlores · May 17, 2017

Rick B said:
I have thought about your request to review your post and to help you better your debate skills I have some brief observations/criticisms to offer.

1 Back off all the pictures, gifs, cartoons, etc. It will be seen as sophomoric or childish.

2 Don't present unscholarly resources as your source of authority. For example, if it is your intention to present your position as a compelling (Biblical) argument offering men like Thomas Jefferson, who wrote his own Bible, James K. Morrow, sci-fi writer, Dan Brown, "thriller" novelist, and H. G. Wells, British fiction writer who, according to Enc. Britannica, "None of his contemporaries did more to encourage revolt against Christian tenets...". These are not, by any stretch, Biblical or Christian theological authorities. So for you to use them to support INC beliefs or to attempt to refute opposing argumentation is not valid. Rather it is counter productive.

3 Further study needs to be undertaken in Church History to be able to present factual evidence. For example, you stated or implied that the NRSVCE and Roman Catholicism predated Nicea. This is a patently false statement. As a matter of fact your whole understanding of the history of Nicea is skewed as I mentioned earlier. To demonstrate, if I was to state: The Roman Emperor Constantine called a council of 318 Bishops together to bring unity to the catholic church and that there were no Roman Catholics there what would be your response? I know what it would be but my statement is 100% accurate.

4 The INC has instructed it's adherents to close their ears and refuse to accept the definition and stated beliefs of Trinitarians and present what the INC self-defines as to what Trinitarianism is. This method is simple equivocation and does not stand up to honest, rational scrutiny, as a response, in any dialogue or debate.

5 Finally to state "you believe something that is not in the Bible" without engaging the text and context is on the level of saying "Oh yeah?" You must demonstrate some level of knowledge regarding the intention of the original authors in what they wrote.

These few brief suggestions drawn from your posts demonstrate the failure on the part of INC to provide a coherent, logical, meaningful, and consistent argument. And a wise man has said "inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument".

1. Love to be a child again. I like to draIw pictures and be artistic. It helps people to comprehend the topics discussed and convey my feeling on the topics - like a little child.
Mark 10:15
Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

2. If it is historical, then I would be referring to outside sources to support or negate whatever is presented. For example a meaning of the word, we would have to consult the dictionary for it instead of assuming or supposing something out of this world which only exist in the mind. A suitable reference must be used when needed.

3. The Bible predated Nicaea not the versions of the bible that exist today. The OT is in the hands of the Israelites, the Pharisees and Sadducees and other Jewish sects. The NT copies abound during the time of the apostles and Paul because they made copies of it which is now in our hands. The pagan Emperor Constantine made 50 copies in Latin, that's all. The Bible went through history and survived because it is the Word of God.

4. Well you are entitled to your opinion. But I would stay where the truth is found. If the truth of salvation is found in your church, then people should go there by all means. But if the truth isn't there and it is so vague and unexplainable then that is a lie masked as the truth.

The danger of not being in the truth would mean eternal punishment and the glory of being in the truth would mean eternal salvation.

5. I believe the Bible does not need any interpretation because it is God's words the writers like the prophets and the apostles are like secretaries, writing the words down as guided by the Holy Spirit. When a bible version is unclear then a faithful version which is comprehensible would naturally be used.

What is consistent on my part are:

Jesus is not God
The only true God is the Father
The HS is not God because the HS is sent

When it is written in the Bible, the truth has been sitting there even before the bishops of Nicaea even made Jesus a god [325 AD] or the HS a god [381 AD].

Romans 3:4New International Version (NIV)

Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”

Placing trust on the decisions for a doctrine about beliefs of a long dead pagan Roman Emperor who presided the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. is something people should worry about.

Colossians 2:22
These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.

Rick B · May 17, 2017

I rest my case. The longer you continue to express your mind the more you confirm your inability to make rational responses.

Matthew 4:10 "Then Jesus said to him, go, Satan! For it is written, you shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only." Jesus was referring to Deut.6:13 and 10:20. To which we both would give a hardy "Amen". But at the same time you blatantly disobey this command from God and worship one that you claim is only a man - Jesus of Nazareth. You have placed yourself on the "horns of a dilemma" from which only your self-deception could possibly justify your cognitive dissonance.

MJFlores · May 18, 2017

Rick B said:
I rest my case. The longer you continue to express your mind the more you confirm your inability to make rational responses.

Matthew 4:10 "Then Jesus said to him, go, Satan! For it is written, you shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only." Jesus was referring to Deut.6:13 and 10:20. To which we both would give a hardy "Amen". But at the same time you blatantly disobey this command from God and worship one that you claim is only a man - Jesus of Nazareth. You have placed yourself on the "horns of a dilemma" from which only your self-deception could possibly justify your cognitive dissonance.

Just accepting what I read from the Bible and
not what a pagan twice dead Roman Emperor Constantine presided.

Should I believe dead bishops or the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ?

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Should I believe dead Constantine with his dead bishops or the what the apostles preached who God is?

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

in the Expanded bible 1 Tim 1:17 is written like this:

EXB
To the ·King who rules forever [eternal King; L King of the ages], ·who will never die [immortal; incorruptible], ·who cannot be seen [invisible], the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

The only God is eternal; lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

My Lord Jesus Christ - was born in Bethlehem - hence not God who is eternal

Matthew 2:1
[ The Magi Visit the Messiah ] After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

The only God is immortal; who will never die

My Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross - hence not God who is immortal

Romans 8:34
Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

The only God is invisible - who cannot be seen

My Lord Jesus Christ was seen by people during his ministry on earth - hence not the God who is invisible.

Acts 1:11
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

I believe my Lord Jesus and not some doctrine made 325 years later.

Rick B · May 18, 2017

MJFlores said:
Just accepting what I read from the Bible and
not what a pagan twice dead Roman Emperor Constantine presided.

Should I believe dead bishops or the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ?

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Should I believe dead Constantine with his dead bishops or the what the apostles preached who God is?

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

in the Expanded bible 1 Tim 1:17 is written like this:

EXB
To the ·King who rules forever [eternal King; L King of the ages], ·who will never die [immortal; incorruptible], ·who cannot be seen [invisible], the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

The only God is eternal; lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

My Lord Jesus Christ - was born in Bethlehem - hence not God who is eternal
View attachment 17350
Matthew 2:1
[ The Magi Visit the Messiah ] After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

The only God is immortal; who will never die

My Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross - hence not God who is immortal

Romans 8:34
Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

The only God is invisible - who cannot be seen

My Lord Jesus Christ was seen by people during his ministry on earth - hence not the God who is invisible.

Acts 1:11
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

I believe my Lord Jesus and not some doctrine made 325 years later.

So you've repeatedly ran down rabbit trails. Do you worship the man Jesus?

MJFlores · May 18, 2017

Rick B said:
So you've repeatedly ran down rabbit trails. Do you worship the man Jesus?

Yes, I do worship the man, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why is that? Isn't it true that the Lord God should be worship alone? Yes I worship the Lord God as God.

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

And I worship the man, Jesus Christ not as God but for the glory [honor and praise] of God.

Philippians 2:9-11 New International Version (NIV)

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Who exalted [raised] Jesus to the highest place?
It was God.

Who gave him a name that is above every name that every knee should bow whether in heaven, on or under earth?
It was God.

Whose order is it to worship Jesus and acknowledge him as Lord?
It was God

Why would we worship a man, Jesus Christ?
For the glory [praise and honor] of God who is the Father.

Rick B · May 18, 2017

MJFlores said:
Yes, I do worship the man, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why is that? Isn't it true that the Lord God should be worship alone? Yes I worship the Lord God as God.

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

And I worship the man, Jesus Christ not as God but for the glory [honor and praise] of God.

Philippians 2:9-11 New International Version (NIV)

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Who exalted [raised] Jesus to the highest place?
It was God.

Who gave him a name that is above every name that every knee should bow whether in heaven, on or under earth?
It was God.

Whose order is it to worship Jesus and acknowledge him as Lord?
It was God

Why would we worship a man, Jesus Christ?
For the glory [praise and honor] of God who is the Father.

Thank you for being honest and more straightforward in your response and to which the INC organization's statement of faith confesses, that you admit that you worship God and Jesus Christ "a very special man but not God" (iglesianichristo.net Core Values). Who "Was created by God the Father...God’s highest creation." (Wikipedia)

In your previous posts you made very many fallacious statements as well as twisting the Scriptures, but this statement: "And I worship the man Jesus Christ, not as God but for the glory (honor and praise) of God.", is the most unbiblical and anti-Christian.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and of four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen". Romans 1:18-25

"Then Jesus said to him, go, Satan! For it is written, you shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only". Matthew 4:10

Nowhere in Scripture does God command or allow the worship of any created thing including man. Worship is to be given to and received by God alone. No man, no matter how "very special" - Who "Was created by God the Father...God’s highest creation" does God say to worship. The INC, and you as one of it's subject's, are guilty of worshipping a created being contrary to the will of God as plainly written in Scripture. So the insistence that it is because "God says so" can only be true if Jesus is both God and man. There is no other possible, coherent explanation.

Both the humanity (sin excepted) and the Deity of Christ (hypostatic union) is affirmed in the New Testament and understood and believed by those who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear, who have not been "given over" by God and to whom Jesus has not pronounced this terrible sentence upon them: "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind" Matthew 15:14a

Jesus is the Lord of Hosts of the Old Testament.

"In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said, 'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory.' And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. Then I said, 'woe is me, for I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live amoung a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.'" Isaiah 6:1-5

Now: "But though He (Jesus) had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: 'Lord, who has believed our report, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?' For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.' These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory." John 12:37-41

Clearly John states that the vision Isaiah saw of the glory of "the King, the Lord of hosts high and lofty sitting on His throne" was non-other than the pre-incarnate Christ, the Lord of hosts (Jehovah Sabaoth).

"Therefore I (Jesus) said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM (ego eimi - YAHWEH) you will die in your sins." John 8:24

MJFlores · May 18, 2017

Rick B said:
Thank you for being honest and more straightforward in your response and to which the INC organization's statement of faith confesses, that you admit that you worship God and Jesus Christ "a very special man but not God" (iglesianichristo.net Core Values). Who "Was created by God the Father...God’s highest creation." (Wikipedia)

In your previous posts you made very many fallacious statements as well as twisting the Scriptures, but this statement: "And I worship the man Jesus Christ, not as God but for the glory (honor and praise) of God.", is the most unbiblical and anti-Christian.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and of four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen". Romans 1:18-25

"Then Jesus said to him, go, Satan! For it is written, you shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only". Matthew 4:10

Nowhere in Scripture does God command or allow the worship of any created thing including man. Worship is to be given to and received by God alone. No man, no matter how "very special" - Who "Was created by God the Father...God’s highest creation" does God say to worship. The INC, and you as one of it's subject's, are guilty of worshipping a created being contrary to the will of God as plainly written in Scripture. So the insistence that it is because "God says so" can only be true if Jesus is both God and man. There is no other possible, coherent explanation.

Both the humanity (sin excepted) and the Deity of Christ (hypostatic union) is affirmed in the New Testament and understood and believed by those who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear, who have not been "given over" by God and to whom Jesus has not pronounced this terrible sentence upon them: "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind" Matthew 15:14a

Jesus is the Lord of Hosts of the Old Testament.

"In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said, 'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory.' And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. Then I said, 'woe is me, for I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live amoung a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.'" Isaiah 6:1-5

Now: "But though He (Jesus) had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: 'Lord, who has believed our report, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?' For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.' These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory." John 12:37-41

Clearly John states that the vision Isaiah saw of the glory of "the King, the Lord of hosts high and lofty sitting on His throne" was non-other than the pre-incarnate Christ, the Lord of hosts (Jehovah Sabaoth).

"Therefore I (Jesus) said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM (ego eimi - YAHWEH) you will die in your sins." John 8:24

Kinda long. Tell you what, people can't do anything to change what is in the Bible. If Jesus is a man, he is a man. You can slash your wrist several times and still he is a man not God.

Fast Facts: The Books of Acts to the Book of Revelations is the gospel when the Lord Jesus Christ was taken up in heaven. These contains the teachings of the apostles as guided by the Holy Spirit. What did the apostles preached?

Acts 2:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

“My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true.

Who said these? It was apostle Peter.
Who was his audience? His fellow Israelites.
Did Peter say he was god? He didn't.
Did Peter say he was truly god and truly man? He didn't
What did Peter say? Jesus was a very special man.
Did Peter know Jesus? But of course, Peter saw his miracles.

What did Peter say about the miracles of Jesus? "God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus."

Did the Israelites know about this? Peter said "You all saw these things, so you know this is true." Like feeding the five thousand people with 5 loaves and 2 fishes.

So please don't blame me, it was Peter. What he said is written. Even his fellow Israelites saw all the miracles and knew this is true. It was God who showed his miracles through Jesus Christ - God clearly showed this to you.

Biblical? It is in the Bible.

Rick B · May 18, 2017

Your typical non-response. Dodging. Misdirection. Hiding in fear of the Biblical truth demolishing your heretical position. It has become utterly repulsive. If presenting incoherent arguments, twisting Scripture and avoiding any direct responses refuting your assertions time after time, hoping, by this method, to wear down your opponent, is your claim to victory, that is the only thing you can take pride in. That and doing service to the INC cult.

Jesus, the Christian Myth

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