• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Video About Problems With Atheism

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Well, we have learned something. And we should ponder on this. As humanists and rationalists, we have a certain responsability.

Apparently, it is very dangerous to challenge believers. By their own admission.

I mean, who wants to experience several billions of individuals morally equivalent to Hannibal the Cannibal or Al Capone, the day the lose their faith?

Dear theist, keep believing, by all means. Do not listen to us. We are all wrong; the earth is really 6000 years old. We are not apes despite the similarities. Noah and Adam really existed. And Jesus really died and raised to save us from sins. And whatever you believe, no matter if it is Jesus or Allah, Apollo, or the great Juju at the bottom of the sea, is really true!

Please.

Ciao

- viole

Indeed. If belief in an ancient collection of myths, and the rules laid out in them, is the only thing keeping all these people from running rampant through the streets - murdering, stealing, raping, and coveting - then, by gods, let's make sure they don't suddenly lose their literal belief in their folk tales. All of us who act morally for its own sake, would suddenly be sh** out of luck against the hordes of ex-Christians who longer have a reason to act civilized.
 
Well as you say he appears to believe values are negotiated not that they are objective, but he seems to think that radical atheists are against the established negotiated morality.

Not really. He's really focusing on the mythological roots of their moral framework.

He's arguing that 'radical atheists' have internalised many of the values of mythological belief systems (generally Christianity). These views are so ingrained in popular consciousness that people forget that they are an artificial construct based on a mythology based, subjective worldview.

When they claim that reason alone leads them to their conclusions they are mistaken as many different conclusions can all be considered 'rational'.

So people like Dawkins owe their moral framework, to a large extent, to the religion that they often ridicule.

whether his argument is sound.

Yes. Much as many Humanists hate the very thought of it, their morals owe a lot to Christianity.
 

CogentPhilosopher

Philosophy Student
He begins by discussing works by Dostoevsky, particularly Crime and Punishment. He then calls out Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins 'Radical atheists' on their assumption that humanity can proceed on a purely rational and irreligious basis.

Seems to have history on it's side.

Look at times where we used rationality instead of theology.

Dostoevesky seems to make the point (according to this prof) that if there's no transcendent value (God) then you can do whatever you want (morality is destroyed and chaos ensues).

Unlike some people, the vast majority of people have empathy. When combined with logic, empathy can make a stable ethics system. I have studied secular ethics a lot as it is one of my majors.

On the other hand you seem to be advocating for the divine command system of ethics. Which basically means that just because you think your god is all-powerful you think he is just. Therefore it is might makes right. Which to me is very immoral.

The prof asks his students "What the hell is irrational about me getting whatever I want from every one of you whenever I want it...and how is that more irrational than us cooperating so that we can have a good time of it?"

Because it would

A) Go against basic human empathy.

B) Get you nothing good in the long run.

C) Ruin your career.

He complains that radical atheists believe the human psychopathic tendency is irrational and therefore are misguided in thinking that pure rationality is a viable path forward.

To become a psychopath you need to be born with it and/or have an extremely traumatic experience happen to you.

Also if atheism led to that, that would mean that there would be more psychopathic atheists than other groups which is simply not the case.

Well I would say he makes an argument,

Not a good one though.


and I wonder if folks here think he is accurately describing radical atheism and whether his argument is sound.

There is no such thing as radical atheism. He is just using the word radical as a scare tactic.

Funny how radical Christians and Muslims kill people and "radical" atheists just talk though.

Frankly it is pretty clear that this person has not taken a good Intro to Ethics course.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I think Peterson raises a good point that I have thought about before myself but couldn't express as well.

This modern atheism seems to take as a given that brotherly love and compassion are good things. Where does that come from?
 

CogentPhilosopher

Philosophy Student
Much as many Humanists hate the very thought of it, their morals owe a lot to Christianity.

Actually Humanism while born within Christianity, was originally group of Christians who decided to use secular philosophy as their basis of ethics rather than theology.

They still owe their human-centrism to Christianity though.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It seems that the priestly classes are the ones who benefit from nationalized religions, so I cannot agree with your statement. I do not see them as group survival strategies but rather hedonistic territorial tendencies given lots of power and no responsibility.

There exist groups within groups. Like your example Priest, or Police. Depends on the group the individual identifies with. There are moral codes within these groups which support the smaller group which the individual identifies with but is detrimental to the larger group. The larger group will try to enforce it's values on the smaller group. It really depends on which group has a stronger identification for the individual. The smallest group being the self. For some the self provides the strongest identity. For others family, others religion or nation. Some humanity as a whole. This is cultural or learned or perhaps even genetic in the case of the sociopath.

Sometimes moral codes are fashioned in reaction to horrors and abuses, and horrors and abuses sometimes are justified as beneficial to the group. I think transcending this is a virtuous goal, and the question becomes how to have moral codes which are not merely about the survival of the group and how we got the ones we have.

I suspect if you could identify the group the individual has the strongest identity for it'd be pretty easy to understand the justification for their morals. If you identify more with humanity as a whole, these horrors/abuses are detrimental to humanity. There the folks who commit these acts. The victim is excluded from their group. Whatever the group is, even if it is the individual themselves. Folks do this mental exclusion so the morals of the group do not extend to the victim. The action is justified because the individual is not a member of the group the perpetrator identifies with.

There are various thought-models we can have to try and explain History, but we still need to take actual historical events into account to verify or deny those thought-models so we can know what is going on.

Certainly this is at most a personal theory.

Group survival is a good concept and a useful one to consider. It doesn't always appeal to individuals, to legislators and to governors.

The size of the group is scalable. Republicans vs Democrats. Americans vs Russians. Family vs community. Individual vs government.

Rationally, the larger the group where the group in return, supports the individual, the better the individual's chance of survival. However, humans are not always rational.

Morals which support yourself only are not as rational as those which support the family. Morals which support only the family and exclude the community are not as rational as those which support the community.

Religious morals support the religious group even sometimes at the expense of the individual. People outside the religious group, the morals don't apply too. This is why I suspect the Bible is seemly both supportive and barbaric. Christians go to heaven, non-Christian go to hell. Whereas Christians who identify with the larger of all of humanity find a way to invalidate the concept of hell.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I think Peterson raises a good point that I have thought about before myself but couldn't express as well.

This modern atheism seems to take as a given that brotherly love and compassion are good things. Where does that come from?

I see it as group survival is a good thing. Brotherly love and compassion come into play only where the individual identifies as a species. Buddhism goes beyond even that to support survival of other animals. Compassion is a result of identifying the person as being a part of your group.
 
Actually Humanism while born within Christianity, was originally group of Christians who decided to use secular philosophy as their basis of ethics rather than theology.

They still owe their human-centrism to Christianity though.

What secular ethics are you referring to?

Small h (Renaissance) humanists reintroduced Greek philosophy to Christian theology (early Christianity grew out of Hellenised Judaism), it wasn't the ethics that they took from that though.

Greek ethics were very different indeed. The 'all men are created equal' type stuff is an offshoot of monotheism via Genesis and Pauline Christianity.
 

CogentPhilosopher

Philosophy Student
What secular ethics are you referring to?

Small h (Renaissance) humanists reintroduced Greek philosophy to Christian theology (early Christianity grew out of Hellenised Judaism), it wasn't the ethics that they took from that though.

Greek ethics were very different indeed. The 'all men are created equal' type stuff is an offshoot of monotheism via Genesis and Pauline Christianity.

I don't consider Thomas Jefferson a humanist for one thing.

Second of all do you know anything about secular ethics?
 
Second of all do you know anything about secular ethics?

The term is meaningless to me without more to go on. What form of ethics?

In general though, Humanists like to think their ethics came from Reason or Greek Philosophy or Eastern Philosophy or 'anything but Christianity', but they do have an unmistakable Christian heritage.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
In trying to think objectively from both sides, I will (as a non-atheist) give my response against the anti-atheist Peterson to see what people here think.

The desire for social behavior is in our DNA as it promotes survival of human DNA. We are programmed by our nature (DNA) for socialness and not from any transcendent value system. We are happier following our natural programming, that's all; nothing transcendent.
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
I am not sure how many of you have read Crime and Punishment, by the main character does not escape "punishment" (I won't give away the ending). If you have not read the book then you should read it, there is a reason it is considered existential literature.

The guy in the video seems to have an overly simplistic view of the book, and when I read it I certainly did not get that message from the book. It was an exploration, yes, but to sum up Crime and Punishment so simply is just naive. The guy in the video clearly only took what he wanted to hear from the book.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This is just in search of other opinions which support my own...

Field studies show the natural emergence in the animal kingdom of ethics and morality. Animals live in groups because the opportunities for survival and reproduction are much better in groups than alone. All social animals have to modify or restrain their behaviors for group living. Highly social mammals such as primates and elephants have been known to exhibit traits that were once thought to be uniquely human, like empathy and altruism. While other primates may not possess free will over their morality in the human sense, they do possess some traits that would have been necessary for the early stages of the evolution of morality. Anthropologist Barbara King notes that these traits include high intelligence, a capacity for symbolic communication, a sense of social norms, realization of "self," and a concept of continuity. Where these basic personality traits are held in common, the basics of sociobiological morality are also shared. As listed by science historian Michael Shermer, these include: attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, direct and indirect reciprocity, altruism and reciprocal altruism, conflict resolution and peacemaking, deception and deception detection, community concern and caring about what others think about you, and awareness of and response to the social rules of the group. These pre-moral sentiments evolved in primate societies as a method of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups. Humans evolved to enforce their society’s moral codes much more rigorously with rewards, punishments, and reputation building. We are more successful at cooperation because of this.

Are Morals Just Rules for Survival?
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
People argue until they are blue in the face about the supposed immorality of atheism, but as far as I know neither Sam Harris nor Richard Dawkins are out there chopping up people.

The proof is in the pudding, as it is said. There exist atheists, the majority are just as morally upstanding as theists, end of story.
 
Last edited:

james bond

Well-Known Member
Dostoevsky is not the only one who thinks this way, as many people agree with him. The argument is an old one in that atheists do not believe in an afterlife and final judgment. Thus, anything goes as long as you have enough power or don't get caught. The Bible describes a world of heathens and false idolators that became so bad that the entire population of the world had to be destroyed. That's the ultimate crime and punishment.
 

CogentPhilosopher

Philosophy Student
The term is meaningless to me without more to go on. What form of ethics?

In general though, Humanists like to think their ethics came from Reason or Greek Philosophy or Eastern Philosophy or 'anything but Christianity', but they do have an unmistakable Christian heritage.

Prove it.

BTW why do you list your religion as none?
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
I cannot say whether he's making an allegation against the atheist community without watching the whole lecture, and this is six minutes extracted from an entire lecture. I think to really establish it as a slander would require a lot more elbow grease.

now ... Who is trying to accuse this guy of slander towards anyone? My statement was that the allegation was deceptive and inaccurate; I never went on a warpath or accused anyone of "slander".
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't think the video has any argument against atheism (of any kind) at all.

It does however show a poor understanding of morality, as well as of what would justify theism. Morality, if it is to have any substance at all, needs an intensely rational attitude.

While some people may conceivably need external rules and even presumably divine designs to remain somewhat moral, those are few and, frankly, deeply degenerated specimens. To claim that morality needs those designs is to belittle morality itself.

The speaker would greatly benefit from reading some Sam Harris and Peter Singer.
 
Last edited:
Top