Christians, anything wrong with the following?

Skwim said:

This is an image (created in 2013 I believe) that first appeared on the Betty Bowers ("America's Best Christian") web site, which has since found itself popping up across the internet---it was recently posted in a thread here on RF. It's a parody of the For Dummies instructional/reference books.

I realize some Christians might take exception to it, perhaps as an abuse of a well known theme of Jesus knocking on the door, but aside from that, as a succinct summery of Christian salvation I believe it's spot on.

Any disagreements?

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I think the answer ''from what?'' is ''from ancestral sin, all humans carry''

Skwim said:

Didn't say you did. You made a silly, "science is just as flawed as Christianity," argument.

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You said Christianity has a bunch or denominations, I said scientific theories come in many forms even to explain the same things (and many times their exclusive). Then you compared the worth of Christianity against the worth of science. So your responsible for that last iteration.

Okay, I'll bite. What are these "several logical laws" Hawking broke?

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The law on non-contradiction, equating nothing with something, and positing an effect was it's own cause, he also made a boot strap fallacy, etc.......

Far from it. As you know, there are many more.

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Actually everything you mentioned was based on the same argument. You claim that God is evil and causes evil in the sense of sin and suffering. I showed that first that is not what the verse you gave means, and second that you must show that God lacked moral justification for acts to which you simply do not like. In addition your going to have to find a find some moral standard that binds God. So far it seems your criteria are that God may only do things which you like. Not very persuasive.

It's the English spelling of the term.

Language.....Term
English......,..."evil"

Albanian........e keqe
Basque..........gaiztoak
Belarusian.....зло
Bosnian.........zlo
Bulgarian.......зло
Catalan..........mal
Croatian.........zlo
Czech............zlo
Danish...........onde
Dutch.............kwaad
Estonian........paha
Finnish..........paha
French..........mal
Galician........mal
German........böse
Greek...........ακό
Hungarian....gonosz
Icelandic.......illt
Irish..............olc
Italian...........male
Latvian.........ļaunums
Lithuanian.....blogis
Macedonian..зло
Maltese.........ħażen
Norwegian....onde
Polish............zło
Portuguese...mal
Romanian.....rău
Russian........зло
Serbian.........зло
Slovak...........zlo
Slovenian......zlo
Spanish........mal
Swedish.......ondska
Ukrainian......зло
Welsh...........drwg​

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It's stuff like this that makes non-Christians sputter in disbelief at the extent Christian apologists go to gild their god and prop up their religion. Believe me, while you may revel in its reassuring words, we on the outside shutter at your gullibility, and your presumption that we would give it any credence. This is preaching-to-the-choir material and not something one brings to a save-the-sinner intervention.

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I did not learn about divine command theory from an apologist, but from a board sitting Phd in philosophy, and I later learned it goes back thousands of years. I am assuming your responding to my explanation for why God may order an attack or even kill someone directly. But since you didn't quote me I have to guess.

As for relying on Matthew Henry and his Commentary, one has to ask why? Other than appeasing ones concerns,why bother with it? Henry was no theological or linguistic scholar, or a scholar of any kind for that matter, but rather an ordinary, but non-conforming, Presbyterian minister who simply liked to comment on what he believed all the verses in the Bible meant. A nice pastime I guess, but only slightly more meaningful than what he had to eat each Christmas.

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He is the most accepted bible commentator in human history. Why don't you show his interpretations to be wrong, instead of unjustly ejecting a source, simply because what they say is inconvenient for you? I can dig up the same interpretations from people with any set of rational credentials required.

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1robin said:

You said Christianity has a bunch or denominations, I said scientific theories come in many forms even to explain the same things (and many times their exclusive).

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WHERE did you say this?

Then you compared the worth of Christianity against the worth of science. So your responsible for that last iteration.

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You said: I could record details or opportunities for disagreement every second, of every hour, every day, for weeks or months over which Christians can disagree. It is no different for science, history, mathematics, moral theory, or any other complex idea composed of countless facets.

I replied: The only difference is that for the most part science, and mathematics in particular, eventually come to agreement as to the facts.

You then said: It is the same in Christianity, the majority agree on the majority of things. Science is just as flawed. After 5000 years of scientific discoveries Einstein decided he liked a steady state universe instead of one that was expanding so he simply invented a number and tried to impose it on nature, he said it was his greatest professional mistake.

I replied: Curious thing about the flaws of science, unlike those of Christianity, once they're spotted scientist go about correcting them as quickly as possible. On the other hand, Christians seldom, if ever, do, and when they do it takes them hundreds of years.

You then said: I did not make a theism is better than scientism argument but I will provide one last response.

I said: Didn't say you did. You made a silly, "science is just as flawed as Christianity," argument.

To which you have now replied: You said Christianity has a bunch or denominations, I said scientific theories come in many forms even to explain the same things (and many times their exclusive). Then you compared the worth of Christianity against the worth of science. So your responsible for that last iteration.

Nice attempt to ignore and change the subject, but I'm not falling for it.

The law on non-contradiction, equating nothing with something, and positing an effect was it's own cause, he also made a boot strap fallacy, etc.......

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Geeze! If you're going to cite a fallacy at least take the time to understand it so you can apply it properly. And bootstrapping isn't a fallacy, but merely the concept of accomplishing something without outside assistance.

Tell you what, continue on with someone else. Your inability to carry on a reasonable debate simply isn't worth my time.

Have a good day.

Skwim said:

WHERE did you say this?



You said: I could record details or opportunities for disagreement every second, of every hour, every day, for weeks or months over which Christians can disagree. It is no different for science, history, mathematics, moral theory, or any other complex idea composed of countless facets.

I replied: The only difference is that for the most part science, and mathematics in particular, eventually come to agreement as to the facts.

You then said: It is the same in Christianity, the majority agree on the majority of things. Science is just as flawed. After 5000 years of scientific discoveries Einstein decided he liked a steady state universe instead of one that was expanding so he simply invented a number and tried to impose it on nature, he said it was his greatest professional mistake.

I replied: Curious thing about the flaws of science, unlike those of Christianity, once they're spotted scientist go about correcting them as quickly as possible. On the other hand, Christians seldom, if ever, do, and when they do it takes them hundreds of years.

You then said: I did not make a theism is better than scientism argument but I will provide one last response.

I said: Didn't say you did. You made a silly, "science is just as flawed as Christianity," argument.

To which you have now replied: You said Christianity has a bunch or denominations, I said scientific theories come in many forms even to explain the same things (and many times their exclusive). Then you compared the worth of Christianity against the worth of science. So your responsible for that last iteration.

Nice attempt to ignore and change the subject, but I'm not falling for it.


Geeze! If you're going to cite a fallacy at least take the time to understand it so you can apply it properly. And bootstrapping isn't a fallacy, but merely the concept of accomplishing something without outside assistance.

Tell you what, continue on with someone else. Your inability to carry on a reasonable debate simply isn't worth my time.

Have a good day.

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Good idea I have way too many debates going on to backtrack through the last 4 or 5 with you to see who said what and when.

However one last parting shot.
fal·la·cy
ˈfaləsē/
noun
noun: fallacy; plural noun: fallacies

1. a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument

To claim an effect is it's own cause is an unsound argument and a mistaken belief, and therefor a fallacy.

Muffled said:

I believe the fact that you think so shows you don't have a clue about what it means to be a Christian.

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Being a Christian means he follows Christ to the letter.
Christian defined: a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

If he does not, then his father is the devil, a false Christian



John 8:40-45 New International Version (NIV)

As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

Muffled said:

I believe the fact that you think so shows you don't have a clue about what it means to be a Christian.

Click to expand...

Being a Christian means he follows Christ to the letter.
Christian defined: a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

If he does not, then his father is the devil, a false Christian

View attachment 17219

John 8:40-45 New International Version (NIV)

As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

MJFlores said:

Being a Christian means he follows Christ to the letter.
Christian defined: a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

If he does not, then his father is the devil, a false Christian

View attachment 17219

John 8:40-45 New International Version (NIV)

As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

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I believe if you don't believe in the Trinity you are not doing that. In fact you are not even in agreement with the core meaning of Christianity.

I believe an atheist can do that and still be an atheist and not a Christian.

I believe a person can say this but what that person says and does may very well belie the fact.

I believe that is an extreme view. For instance I do not think that about you even though you fit in the category of not having the right words to assure me that you are a Christian. However when you accuse me of evil then I begin to wonder where you are coming from because that is a tactic of the devil.

Re 12:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.

MJFlores said:

Being a Christian means he follows Christ to the letter.
Christian defined: a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

If he does not, then his father is the devil, a false Christian

View attachment 17219

John 8:40-45 New International Version (NIV)

As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

Click to expand...

I believe if you don't believe in the Trinity you are not doing that. In fact you are not even in agreement with the core meaning of Christianity.

I believe an atheist can do that and still be an atheist and not a Christian.

I believe a person can say this but what that person says and does may very well belie the fact.

I believe that is an extreme view. For instance I do not think that about you even though you fit in the category of not having the right words to assure me that you are a Christian. However when you accuse me of evil then I begin to wonder where you are coming from because that is a tactic of the devil.

Re 12:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.

Muffled said:

I believe if you don't believe in the Trinity you are not doing that. In fact you are not even in agreement with the core meaning of Christianity.

I believe an atheist can do that and still be an atheist and not a Christian.

I believe a person can say this but what that person says and does may very well belie the fact.

I believe that is an extreme view. For instance I do not think that about you even though you fit in the category of not having the right words to assure me that you are a Christian. However when you accuse me of evil then I begin to wonder where you are coming from because that is a tactic of the devil.

Re 12:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.

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John 8:40-45 - Are the words of my Lord Jesus Christ. What did he teach? It is clear to me, I hope it is clear for everybody.

John 8:40-45 New King James Version (NKJV)

But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Jesus Christ said he is:

a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God
He is a human being
He is not God but he heard the truth from God

for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me
He came from God. He did not come by his own. God sent him.

The latter words are for people who refused to truth spoken by Jesus. In the Easy to Read Version of the Bible these are recorded:

You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies. “I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me.



I believe in the teaching of Jesus
I believe Jesus is telling the truth.
Those who do not believe the truth is the devil's children - according to Jesus
It is on everyone's bible and no one could change that.