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Yeshua / Jesus Vs Saul / Paul Points
- Thread starter wizanda
- Start date
There isn't any, this is the whole point in the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen statement, that you don't get any inheritance from Yeshua's death; it was the Pharisees John Paul and Simon who falsely said that there is any atonement.
Instead by believing it, it proves who doesn't follow Yeshua, and would rather follow the Pharisees.
Predicting his death is one thing; the Pharisees turning him into a sin offering is totally against the Law, and prophets.
Isaiah 53:10 says it makes him grieve when you turn him into a sin offering, and that through his knowledge he has turned many people to righteousness (Isaiah 53:11), not by his death.
The Christianity we have today, isn't what was first established; it was adopted by the Roman Catholic church, where the canonized Bible, and indoctrination comes from them.
Very silly statement; my theology is well in advance of your religious texts, based on first hand experience.
That is judgement on everyone, and is repeated by multiple prophets.
John is made up.
Everyone has some righteousness in the right context; even hardened criminals can do kind things.
Rather than always thinking we're right, to the point of telling an Arch Angel they must be the stupid one; why not try questioning what has been given to understand.
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I Jn 2:2 - And He(Jesus) Himself is the propitiation for out sins ; and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of thew whole world.
The Pharisees were legalist---you must keep the law to get into the next life. That is what you preach instead of grace. You Are the one not following Jesus.
Teh Pharisees did a lot of things that were against the law.
Just the opposite-- The Lord was PLEASED tocrush Him
Conservative Christianity has not been influenced by the RCC. It is influenced by the reformation and our canon of Scripture is different than the one adopted by the RCC
Your theology is not advanced at all because it rejects some basic doctrines of the Bible.
That is judgement on everyone, and is repeated by multiple prophets.
Where?
Opinions are not evidence.
All men are sinners, they have no righteousness.
Rather than always thinking we're right, to the point of telling an Arch Angel they must be the stupid one; why not try questioning what has been given to understand.
That is an amusing statement coming from one who thinks they are always right.
John is made up.
Matthew 5:17-20 Yeshua tells us to keep the Law...
The problem with the Pharisees according to Yeshua is due to their own made up oral tradition (Mark 7:5-13); they've done away with following the real Law from God...
As when the Pharisees were saying it's acceptable to count the murdered prophets as atoning sacrifices, this is evil.
Thus when Christianity is built on this same premise, that the murdering of Yeshua is acceptable as an offering, this is insane to put it bluntly...
We can't murder God's messengers as sin sacrifices, and then claim it is a righteous act; to me this proves we're in Hell, as only demons could murder angels, and then make a religion about how it makes them good people.
For what reason? The fulfillment of the Lord's plan, which is a Snare to catch out the Ravenous beings (Isaiah 8, Isaiah 28, Isaiah 34, etc).
The RCC has the same 66 books plus more; they've got the Apocrypha version which means they have the last chapters of Daniel, the beginning chapters of Ezra, there are bits removed from the cannon that the Roman Catholic church gave the Protestants.
See if it was a totally different cannon, like an Ebionite, Essene, Gnostic version, etc, it wouldn't have all the black magic death cult stuff in, as most of them where aware it is dark.
I don't reject any doctrine; i accept it all in its contexts....
Just because some bits are falsified, it is meant to be this way, and people are meant to have noticed the difference before Christ's return.
Isaiah 34, Isaiah 24, Daniel 12, Daniel 7, etc...
Evidence is evidence; opinions are a theory on how it contradicts....
That is a list of contradictions that can be assessed by anyone, here are another 20 or so.... Could take the whole of John to pieces.
I don't think I'm always right; that is your own ego projecting onto me... Personally always willing to question everything, show me the evidence.
That refers to the moral law, and of course we should keep that, but you are missing he point---keeping the law will not qualify us for heaven. No one, including you, can keep he law perfectly all the time.
That simply isn't true. The Pharisees insisted on keeping the whole lw.
The never said that.
To back and read Isa 53:10 and tell me who "him" is in that verse.
We can't murder God's messengers as sin sacrifices, and then claim it is a righteous act; to me this proves we're in Hell, as only demons could murder angels, and then make a religion about how it makes them good people.
The prophets were not killed as sin offerings.
>>For what reason? The fulfillment of the Lord's plan, which is a Snare to catch out the Ravenous beings (Isaiah 8, Isaiah 28, Isaiah 34, etc).<<
The Lord's plan is not about snaring anyone.
The Protestants did not take anything from the RCC. The reformation was about rejecting RCC theology compleltely.
The books in the Protestant canon are there because God wants them there,
You reject the substitutionary atonement of Jesus, Salvation by grace alone, and probably many more and don't even realize it.
Already had a NDE, righteousness is a requirement for Heaven; not making mistakes isn't a requirement.
The oral tradition states, "The death of the righteous can atone for the sins of that generation", is used to say that if a righteous tzadik dies, there is atonement on their ascension; yet Yeshua's point (Mark 7:5-13) "of once you say it is right, that a son dies as a sacrifice or an offering, you defile the Law, for you allow him to do no more for his mother and father."
Therefore Yeshua accused them of murdering the prophets in Matthew 23:27-38, and told the parable of the Wicked Husbandman (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19) for this exact same thing.
Read it both as Yeshua and YHVH at the same time.
Isaiah 53:10 Hebrew Text Analysis
It fulfills the Lords plan; yet makes the whole of Heaven grieve what has been done.
They were murdered, and later Pharisaic ideologies established this had acted as a form of atonement (Matthew 23:27-38).
See can tell you're not listening properly now, as if you'd looked at those texts you might have noticed:
Isaiah 8:14-15 He will be a sanctuary, but for both houses of Israel, he will be a stumbling stone and a rock that makes them fall. For the people of Jerusalem, he will be a trap and a snare. (15) Many will stumble over it, fall, be broken, be snared, and be captured.”
Isaiah 28:13 Therefore Yahweh’s word will be to them precept on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, there a little; that they may go, fall backward, be broken, be snared, and be taken.
Sorry stand corrected, 'Doctrine' comes from Latin for 'teaching', so can apply to any beliefs...
Didn't realize, so tho will reject certain authors doctrine, as their text doesn't add up properly against the whole theology, still don't reject their understanding.
Making mistakes, sinning, keeps us from being righteousness. The ONLY way we can become righteous is the same way Abram did--- he believed God.
Oral traditions are man made and should not be used to detemine spiritual truths.
It is not.
???
Isaiah 53:10 Hebrew Text Analysis
It fulfills the Lords plan; yet makes the whole of Heaven grieve what has been done.
How absurd. Murder can't make atonement.
What I have observed is they you don't understand some basic teachings of Christianity and if you reject what God inspired Paul to write, you never will.
God did not set the trap. Their unbelief that Jesus was the Messiah became a trap in which they were snared.
That is the way we learn and it tells us the Bible teaches itself.
We shouldn't only take our definitions from a religious book; yet its meaning as well... Righteousness = 'The quality of being morally right or justifiable.'
If someone believes in God; yet they believe and do lots of immoral things; what good it does saying they believe, proves nothing compared to their actions.
Every time a wise person makes a mistake, they chastise themselves, repent, and find ways to improve; therefore God allowed us to make mistakes to learn righteousness.
Exactly, so therefore Paul is in error, as there can be no atonement from the murder of Yeshua.
Considering was raised in a Christian family, who own a Christian book shop, spent my life in Christianized understanding; fully aware of what Christianity teaches, just see the Bible in a totally different light after studying it on my own.
Though agree a part of it is the idea they will reject Yeshua; there are also massive areas explaining how it is a trap set before the nations (Isaiah 8, Zechariah 5, Isaiah 28, Habakkuk 2, etc).
Luke 21:34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
Agreed that every definition Biblically should be looked up within it first, before proceeding to external commentaries.
Thus before claiming to understand precept, upon precept, we need to go back to the Law first, and examine what it says about human sacrifice, drinking the blood of an offering, fair trials, more than one witness, the definition of a true prophet, and Israel being cursed by Moses, as clearly if we're missing all of these premises, we're not following line, upon line; more like one, two, miss a few.
You can get your theology from God or from man or from yourself. Only one source comes from who is omniscient, and self is the worst source.
Have you quit sinning?
Every time a Christian SINS, they confess it and repent, and God forgives the sin, cleanses them from ALL unrighteousness and forgets the SIN. We don't learn righteousness from our sins, We learn righteousness from what God tells us in His inspired word.
There can be atonement for any sin except blaspheming the Holy Spirit. King David was forgiven for 2 sins deserving death.
I hate to be critical of you, but you don't understand even basic Biblical theology, and by rejecting the writings of Paul, you never will.
God does not set traps for people.
God does not set those traps,k Satan does.
Thus before claiming to understand precept, upon precept, we need to go back to the Law first, and examine what it says about human sacrifice, drinking the blood of an offering, fair trials, more than one witness, the definition of a true prophet, and Israel being cursed by Moses, as clearly if we're missing all of these premises, we're not following line, upon line; more like one, two, miss a few.
We NEVER need to go back to the law(Gal 5:1). Line upon line, etc., simply means to use the Bible, the whole Bible to learn your theology. The Bible is its own commentary.
Then why take only one context of righteousness from the Bible, and miss out on the rest of its meanings?
Firstly depends what we call sin; try hard to limit anything i regret later, that could detriment me in the eyes of God... Yet it is life, and we make mistakes; God forgives infinitely.
Repentance means to turn away from the sin, and turn back to God; if people can't learn from the mistakes, their doomed to repeat them.
The Bible has lots of purposefully evil things within it, to see if people use the knowledge of good and evil; not so they don't think for themselves, and follow all the evil things within it, whilst claiming themselves righteous, as they follow another man who was righteous.
You're not being critical; currently you've got a one sided opinion only comprehending a Christian way of thinking, which I'm fully aware of, and then also aware of multiple other perspectives that are possible.
In someways this is right, in terms of God doesn't purposefully do anything bad; yet it is repeated throughout the text, that their ways shall be a snare unto them.
This is the reference Yeshua was referring to, where at God's coming many will be trapped away from this reality.
Isaiah 24:17-18 Fear, the pit, and the snare, are on you who inhabitant the earth. (18) It will happen that he who flees from the noise of the fear will fall into the pit; and he who comes up out of the middle of the pit will be taken in the snare; for the windows on high are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
Satan didn't create the prophets, which explains how the snare takes place; fair enough Christianity was made up by the synagogue of satan (Pharisees)...
Thus it is like saying God provided all the materials to create the snare; yet didn't set any trap...
Yet we can show God laid Isaiah 8, Isaiah 28, Isaiah 53; God set the trap by placing Yeshua as the bait, made everything leading up to it...
It is just God didn't make you choose to take the bait in the trap, that was people's own choice, heavily influenced by the lying Pharisees (John, Paul and Simon).
We're using the Law to establish what is morally acceptable; failing to recognize the Law, still makes people guilty even if they ignore it.
'We NEVER need to go back to the law'
God is the only One who can define righteousness. There are no other reliable meanings.
Firstly depends what we call sin; try hard to limit anything i regret later, that could detriment me in the eyes of God... Yet it is life, and we make mistakes; God forgives infinitely.God also give us the only definition of sin. Since you admit God forgives infinitely, why do you think He does not forgive the sins of every one? There is one requirement for receiving forgiveness. Do you know what that is?
It doe snot. It means to change the mind.
The Bible has lots of purposefully evil things within it, to see if people use the knowledge of good and evil; not so they don't think for themselves, and follow all the evil things within it, whilst claiming themselves righteous, as they follow another man who was righteous.The only riighteous man based on His life, was Jesus. Our righteousness must be imputed to us as it was to Abram.
Your problem is not accepting all of the Bible as being inspired by God. Critical thinking accepts it is.
In someways this is right, in terms of God doesn't purposefully do anything bad; yet it is repeated throughout the text, that their ways shall be a snare unto them.
Right.
Right, but God will not be the cause of it.
Wher are you getting this false theology? It certainly isnl;t from the Bible.
Thus it is like saying God provided all the materials to create the snare; yet didn't set any trap...
Yet we can show God laid Isaiah 8, Isaiah 28, Isaiah 53; God set the trap by placing Yeshua as the bait, made everything leading up to it...
It is just God didn't make you choose to take the bait in the trap, that was people's own choice, heavily influenced by the lying Pharisees (John, Paul and Simon).
We're using the Law to establish what is morally acceptable; failing to recognize the Law, still makes people guilty even if they ignore it.
'We NEVER need to go back to the law'
That is another unBiblical statement. God did not create the materials for the snare.
The dictionary is the same definition that God's messengers have given...
Taking only the easiest to achieve specification of righteousness, and making a case of that is all that is needed, shows disingenuous character.
So for instance, if we've had something repeatedly explained on how to do something properly, and then asked specifically to do something properly, where then we can't be bothered to do what has been asked, it shows an unrighteous character, when we don't try to be as courteous as possible.
Repentance = Turning the other way towards the light, changing our dark ways.
There are multiple places to learn morality from; each time we do anything that defiles morality in someway we're aware of, we sin knowingly.
God does forgive most sins eventually; we don't forgive ourselves (Matthew 7:2), many hide in the darkness (Hell), as their scared of their own reflection within the light.
We're both right, the idea you need to use expletives to make a case, shows weak arguments by the way.
What Is Repentance? Bible Definition of Repent and Repentance
As this site explains and many others, in Greek the word 'metanoia' (G3340) means 'to change the mind'; yet in Hebrew the word 'shuwb' (H7725) means 'to turn back'.
Thus since the context is actually Hebraic, the Hellenized version simplifies the concept already explained.
We could ask the forum, and most likely +85% of the forum would say not all the Bible is inspired by God; which would mean what is suggested as being critical thinking is actually delusional to assume so.
Also your assumptions about what or how i believe isn't needed; you've only got a very basic idea of who i am from a discussion about years of analysis of the said text, ask yourself why anyone who isn't Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, etc is spending so much time on it, and then you might not be so rude.
God in the Tanakh has laid it all out; God shall remove everyone who follows it... Just like the apple in Eden, the trap was set, we made the choice.
Revelation 2:9 “I know your works, oppression, and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I give some of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
In both these verses Yeshua refers to the church, and says parts are following the doctrine from the synagogue of satan, which Yeshua whilst alive was calling the Pharisees.
Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna (Hell) as yourselves.
The other aspect is that John, Paul and Simon were all Pharisaic writers, and so the Church has been heavily influenced by their teachings.
Because we don't comprehend something, doesn't mean it isn't there, and it is also our choice if we then ignore it when shown specifically.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
Muffled, this looks as if you can make any claim that you like with no provenance, but that any who challenge must show provenance. Is this true?
Many people might want proof that you are Jesus, for instance.
Many people, if shown that G-John was wreitten circa 110-120CE would not believe that John BarZebedee could lived so long to write it, and hre certainly did not see many of the claims made with G-John.
I don't know what else to say.......................
I believe I can say anything I wish but it is up to you to require me to prove it. I don't have a double standard.
I believe that is so but since I like the Socratic method of teaching, let me ask you a question first. How will you recognize me? PS I already know the answer.
I believe the showing might be a bit arbitrary and I have seen a date around 100 which is eminently possible. I can believe 100 for the book of Revelation but it would seem the book of John would precede that since it leaves off at the visitation in Galilee. Reasonably speaking on that basis it could have been written anytime after 33AD.
What is that specifically?
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I don't have a clue what you think began with a burning bush.
I believe Christianity began with tongues of fire.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Not providing a ream of scripture doesn't invalidate the statements; it is because anyone who wants to understand the case being presented, needs to know the Biblical text.
Ask on any point, and can provide arguments...
It is amusing to assume someone who has had a NDE, and first hand knowledge of God all my life, fits in with being an Atheist...
I'm just willing to question the case, as i care about what Yeshua stated.
Half right, the word 'end' there, is better translated as a fulfillment of the Law...
Though overall Paul has made it Christians do not follow the Law, so you can't then say, "yes we follow it".
I believe it actually means terminus. The buck stops at Jesus not the written law.
I believe that is a false attribution. Paul follows Jesus as do we. Whatever Jesus would have us do, that is the law for us. So if anyone has determined what law should be it is God and not some book or what someone says about a book.
Paul never met Yeshua, claim to; yet his teachings conflict with him on well over 36 points.
Matthew 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. (18) For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. (19) Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. (20) For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. (Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros) were Pharisaic)
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Well....... good luck with that.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Paul never met Yeshua, claim to; yet his teachings conflict with him on well over 36 points.
Matthew 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. (18) For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. (19) Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. (20) For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. (Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros) were Pharisaic)
Let's start with just one point and go from there.
I believe Jesus is referring to the Pharisees that opposed Him. Basically he is saying you must exceed those who are trying by works to fulfill the law because that is what the Pharisees were doing.
Before we start this, lets make one thing clear, John is made up and Simon was called a stone (peter) for a reason; so neither can be used to argue this case.
This article is old, so admittingly there are lots of things that could be improved on, and overall far more points than this; so feel free to add any you know of.
1. Christ said he came to fulfill the law and not to end it. Paul said he came to end the Law, and if we are in Christ we are free of the Law.
2. Christ said that we are judged by the commandments; Paul said we are free of them, if we are in Christ.
3. Christ said that we should not judge, Paul said that the spiritual may judge and should not be judged.
4. Christ said that God is the judge, Paul said Christ is.
5. Christ said that the inheritance is from God and they killed him to try and steal it, as in the parable of the vine dresser; Paul said that we have an inheritance because of Christ's death.
6. Christ said not to sacrifice the innocent, Paul praised the fact that Christ died.
7. Christ said that God is the lord of the living; Paul said that we should remain with Christ in death.
8. Christ showed that reincarnation happens, as he said John was Elijah, Paul said we only live once.
9. Christ said God is spirit, Paul said Christ is the image of God; breaking the second commandment.
10. Christ said he was sent and was a servant and a son, Paul said Christ is equal to God and even said he was God.
11. Christ said to worship God, Paul said to worship Christ.
12. Christ said to be one in God, Paul said to be one body in Christ.
13. Christ said that faith in God is powerful; Paul said that faith is "the faith' and so turning its meaning in to church attendance.
14. Christ showed and said to have faith in God; Paul said have faith in Christ.
15. Christ said have one father, Paul said he had begotten people in Christ so making him a father to them.
16. Christ said that we should want of nothing and trust in God, giving up wealth and helping the poor after his death, 3 thousand people were practicing this. Paul ended this and then said if we don't work we don't eat, and even went back to work while preaching him self.
17. Christ said it will be hard for a rich man to enter heaven; Paul aspired to have wealth and for two years he rented his own house.
18. Christ said we have forgiveness for forgiving others; Paul said we have forgiveness in Christ.
19. Christ said we are justified by our words, Paul said we are justified by Christ.
20. Christ said God would show mercy to the merciful, Paul said we have mercy in Christ.
21. Christ said to be like children to enter heaven; Paul said not to be like children.
22. Christ said to be the light of the world and to show the bad through love how to be good, Paul said to have nothing to do with bad people and push them out.
23. Christ and the Bible said wisdom will make you shine in heaven, and he said that we should increase the talents we are born with; Paul said to be simple in Christ.
24. Christ said, if you help collect in the harvest (works) you will receive your reward, Paul said it is not by works but by faith in Christ alone.
25. Christ said don't make vain repetition in prayers; Paul established it as a way to pray, through the wording he used and the Pharisee ways he showed.
26. Christ said hate self and love through God's love, then this is unconditional, Paul said who doesn't love them self's.
27. Christ said women can be sisters (equal), Paul said they should remain lower.
28. Christ said we should remember him through the sharing of bread (start of acts, only bread); Paul said to remember him through wine.
29. Christ said that his disciples should only drink water; Paul made the drinking of wine (communion) a religious Ritual.
30. Christ clearly showed and said do not worry about being accepted by man, Paul said to be accepted by many.
31. Christ said take up your cross and follow me, as the cross was a symbol in many cultures for God. Paul turned the cross into only a symbol of Christ's death, and caused it to become idolatry.
32. Christ said he came to bring division, meaning that we all follow God; Paul said Christ came to bring peace.
33. Christ said God is the teacher, Paul said him self is a teacher.
34. Christ warned of those who say the time is near, Paul preached the time is near.
35. Christ said invite the poor to your house and feed the hungry, Paul said let the hungry eat at home, and showed to only invite friends for food.
36. Christ says salvation comes from repentance, Paul said Salvation comes from the death of Christ.
You need to give book, chapter and verse and most of your comments are wrong.