No, your god hardened the unnamed pharaoh's heart, and even told Moses that he would do this. After the first two plagues, the pharaoh was willing to let the Hebrews go, but your god had a petty lesson to teach, revoked his free will, and made some macabre example of him. Not to mention that the first two plagues - water to blood and frogs - was allegedly replicated by the Egyptian priests. It should also be noted that after the plague of flies and lice the Pharaoh yet again was willing to let the Hebrews go, but your god hardened his heart.
You aren't even close:
Ex 7:13 - Yet Pharaoh's was hardened. God didn't do it, He started out with a hardened heart.
Ex 7:22 - and Pharaoh's heart was hardened/ AGain, not by God.
Ex 8:15 - But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart...
Ex 8:32 - But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also...
Ex 9:34 - But when Pharaoh saw the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his his heart, he and his servants.
And again, what has he done about it? All well and good to stamp his feet angrily and proclaim that he hates sin, but what has he done to stop the swarm of the caliphate?
Your hyperbole only indicates you have nothing to reinforce your opinions.
You have shown that you can quote-mine and find verses that you think apply to your point. Not that you know your book.<<
Quoting the Bible is not quote mining and even if it was , there is nothing wrong with doing it. When people whine about having to deal with quotes that prove them wrong, it indicated they just can deal with them so they try to denigrate them. l How sad,
You're contradicting yourself--remmeber when you said "there are no other gods"? (Something that you need to prove, by the way). If a god is "man-made" (and I challenge you to back up that claim with clear indication for what man-made is as well), then it's not really a god. Your god would be incredibly childish to be jealous; more so to force or command "his people" away from such a non-issue.
You need to learn to distinguish between God and gods.
Nor have I said that jealousy makes a god not a god. I have said that it would make your god weak and less-than-perfect.
Opinions are meaningless.
Yes yes, he sent his son to be brutally tortured and murdered to (conditionally) fix an error that he caused by dangling temptation in front of thoughtless, innocent beings and then cursing their generations with an affliction of sin. Yet a single line does not void all of your god's statements, actions, and non-actions.
God did not cause Eve to sin and Adam sinned on purpose.
Also since you're so prone to making specific distinctions with wording, it says your god loved the world. Not everyone in it
DUUH. World is all inclusive. If you don't understand that maybe I Jn 2:2 will help you---For He Himself(Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Only it does not say that your god hates enchanting, magic, necromancy, wickedness, violence, etc, it says that he hates the people who do them. Also the huge list of actual peoples.
Where?
Not relevant to what was quoted, at all. The subject of that specific quoting was in regards to what @tytlyf said about the founding fathers and deism, and your flaccid rejection of it (with no evidence to back up your claims).
I did back it up with a chart listing the denominations of over 200 men. Some of the were not directly involved in those documents, but most were.
No, actually, he wasn't a "solid" Christian. While he was affiliated with the Episcopal Church, his attendance was spotty, he was noted as often leaving mass before communion, his baptism is dubious and hard to prove, and on his death bed he did not send for a priest. While in his writings he used the word "God" quite a bit, the words "Jesus" and "Christ" were avoided - and to note, "God" is something that Deists would use as well. Washington was even flat-out called a deist by many of his peers.
History says he was a solid Christian and some of his quotes prove it. Even deists believe in God and that would affect their decisions.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Supporting Trump, now a religion?
- Thread starter Kapalika
- Start date
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Your lack of quoting format is most irksome.
Let's start at the beginning.
When your god is telling Moses what to tell Aaron to tell Pharaoh (because Moses was a poor public speaker, self-admitted), he informs them that he will harden the Pharaoh's heart, and despite the many miracles to come the Pharaoh won't listen because of that (Exodus 7:3-4). Your god clearly takes ownership of every instance of heart-hardening in what is a clear-cut case of revoking the Pharaoh's free will. This covers every single instance of the Pharaoh's heart becoming hard.
Your god's action in this is once again confirmed in Exodus 9:12, in which it is stated that your god hardened the Pharaoh's heart. With Exodus 9:30, we see the sinister nature of these plagues in that the Pharaoh has multiple times either said that the Hebrews could leave or make sacrifices to their god (before being revoked of free will by said god,) as well as multiple mentionings of Pharaoh's officials fearing your god. Despite this, Moses essentially tells him "Thanks for letting us go, but screw you."
Exodus 10 kicks off with your god yet again claiming responsibility for this: "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord." (Exodus 10:1-2) What's worse is that Moses and Aaron accuse the Pharaoh of not humbling himself before their god; something he's done on multiple occasions. Exodus 10:20, we again see your god hardening Pharaoh's heart. He does this again in Exodus 10:27.
In Exodus 11:3, we're told that your god changed the minds and opinions of the entire nation of Egypt, including Pharaoh's officials, so that they looked favorably on Moses. Exodus 11:9, your god divulges that he's hardening Pharaoh's heart so that "[his] wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." This is backed up in the very next verse, Exodus 11:10, in where it is once again stated that your god hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Exodus 12:35-36, we see that yet again your god has altered the minds of the Egyptian people, so that they practically allowed the Hebrews to rob them, giving over anything and everything that was asked for. The word "plundered" is even used. Exodus 13:17, we even see that your god is manipulating the Hebrews, leading them on a longer path so that they don't change their minds and return to Egypt. Oh, but the fun isn't over just yet.
Exodus 14:4, your god yet again hardens Pharaoh's heart so that he pursues the Hebrews, all so that your god can "gain glory for [himself] through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that [he is] the Lord." Despite already thinking this. Exodus 14:8 reaffirms this - that your god hardened Pharaoh's heart - as the Pharaoh sets off after the Hebrews. So your god then kills all the Egyptians, sweeps them into the sea, and instills fearful obedience in the Hebrews.
What a horrible story. Good thing it never happened.
Your god caused this to come about by placing the tree there in the first place.
John Adams - Congregationalist/Christian Unitarian (at death)
Benjamin Franklin - Non-religious, self-proclaimed Deist
Alexander Hamilton - Affiliated with Episcopalian, but noted as a "theist, and irregular churchgoer at best".
John Jay - Protestant Episcopal Church in America
Thomas Jefferson - Deist
James Madison - Deist
George Washington - Deist
So there you have it--only 2 of 7 were Christians. The rest were either grossly lapsed or flat-out non-Christians.
Actually I am. Your opinions are noted, rejected, and disproven by your very own myth.
Let's start at the beginning.
When your god is telling Moses what to tell Aaron to tell Pharaoh (because Moses was a poor public speaker, self-admitted), he informs them that he will harden the Pharaoh's heart, and despite the many miracles to come the Pharaoh won't listen because of that (Exodus 7:3-4). Your god clearly takes ownership of every instance of heart-hardening in what is a clear-cut case of revoking the Pharaoh's free will. This covers every single instance of the Pharaoh's heart becoming hard.
Your god's action in this is once again confirmed in Exodus 9:12, in which it is stated that your god hardened the Pharaoh's heart. With Exodus 9:30, we see the sinister nature of these plagues in that the Pharaoh has multiple times either said that the Hebrews could leave or make sacrifices to their god (before being revoked of free will by said god,) as well as multiple mentionings of Pharaoh's officials fearing your god. Despite this, Moses essentially tells him "Thanks for letting us go, but screw you."
Exodus 10 kicks off with your god yet again claiming responsibility for this: "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord." (Exodus 10:1-2) What's worse is that Moses and Aaron accuse the Pharaoh of not humbling himself before their god; something he's done on multiple occasions. Exodus 10:20, we again see your god hardening Pharaoh's heart. He does this again in Exodus 10:27.
In Exodus 11:3, we're told that your god changed the minds and opinions of the entire nation of Egypt, including Pharaoh's officials, so that they looked favorably on Moses. Exodus 11:9, your god divulges that he's hardening Pharaoh's heart so that "[his] wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." This is backed up in the very next verse, Exodus 11:10, in where it is once again stated that your god hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Exodus 12:35-36, we see that yet again your god has altered the minds of the Egyptian people, so that they practically allowed the Hebrews to rob them, giving over anything and everything that was asked for. The word "plundered" is even used. Exodus 13:17, we even see that your god is manipulating the Hebrews, leading them on a longer path so that they don't change their minds and return to Egypt. Oh, but the fun isn't over just yet.
Exodus 14:4, your god yet again hardens Pharaoh's heart so that he pursues the Hebrews, all so that your god can "gain glory for [himself] through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that [he is] the Lord." Despite already thinking this. Exodus 14:8 reaffirms this - that your god hardened Pharaoh's heart - as the Pharaoh sets off after the Hebrews. So your god then kills all the Egyptians, sweeps them into the sea, and instills fearful obedience in the Hebrews.
What a horrible story. Good thing it never happened.
And neither do you. You claim that your god hates ISIS - or is it what they're doing? You're a little dodgy on that - and yet there is nothing to show for this supposed hatred. Nothing but your word, and I ask you frankly; why should we take you at your word?
Capitalization is nothing but a show of respect for the worshiper. I know the distinction well, boy.
And yet you offer so many of them.
No, not quite. At all. You see, having not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve were as less than children, intellectually. They literally did not know right from wrong, they had no notion of good and evil, and thus had no reason at all for mistrust, suspicion, and even loyalty. So when the snake tells Eve to eat, and she says "But god said..." and he says "That won't actually happen" that's good enough for her. And in the same vein, when she gives the fruit to Adam, he has no clue what it is or why he shouldn't eat it.
Your god caused this to come about by placing the tree there in the first place.
We can do without childish remarks like this, boy.
Is it? Maybe your god was looking out for the planet. That's the kind of inaccuracies that you incur by quote mining, and offering things up out of contest. And even still, John 3:16 is shown to be absolutely conditional, in that to get good on this saving grace, you have to first believe in his son that he sacrificed to himself. Some kind of love that is. 1 John 2:2 does not void this conditional grace, and is less-than-convincing in that it is a letter by John of Patmos. Nothing more than his opinions.
That list has been given to you already. Try actually reading my posts.
Marvelous, but they aren't the Founding Fathers.
John Adams - Congregationalist/Christian Unitarian (at death)
Benjamin Franklin - Non-religious, self-proclaimed Deist
Alexander Hamilton - Affiliated with Episcopalian, but noted as a "theist, and irregular churchgoer at best".
John Jay - Protestant Episcopal Church in America
Thomas Jefferson - Deist
James Madison - Deist
George Washington - Deist
So there you have it--only 2 of 7 were Christians. The rest were either grossly lapsed or flat-out non-Christians.
Apparently only your history. And what quotes? Provide some, if they are such proof.
tytlyf
Not Religious
The Murdoch's still run the corporation, but Fox noise was losing money so they needed a change. Murdoch is the owner and financier. When advertiser$ go elsewhere, time for a mix up. Rush has been facing the same situation. He'll be gone soon as well.
tytlyf
Not Religious
What? In secular America, you're free to worship whatever god(s) or religions you want. You want to change that? Celebrating christmas used to be banned in America.
That's the great thing about living in a secular country governed by a secular constitution. Everyone can believe whatever the heck they want, just keep your religion out of the secular American government.
crowfeather
One
I didn't see any post about this, so I thought I would link it since it's been gaining some traction online:
The actual article, where she cites religion as her reason:
Woman spars with DMV over Trump hat license photo
The picture that has been circulating online:
Thoughts? Opinions? Well deserved mocking of this lady?
I like to see a genuine woman of principle. No doubt Trump does, too.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Of course not. You knew what I would do because I have said what I would do for several months.
I am the prophet. I keep saying none of you evos will cut and paste the evidence from one of you links. So far I have been 100% right.
But my prophecy is superior to yours: I accurately predicted you would ignore anything you are incapable of even THINKING about, let alone refuting with logic and reason.
I'll make another prediction: You will fall back on your ususal-- "Nuh Unh!" without a shred of anything.
Meanwhile? We have The Links:
Proof of evolution: TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
Proof of evolution: Evolution
Proof of evolution: 101 Reasons Why Evolution is True | ideonexus.com
Proof of evolution: Human Evolution Evidence | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program
Proof of evolution: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=46
Proof of evolution: Evidence of common descent - Wikipedia
Proof of evolution: Human Genome Shows Proof of Recent Evolution, Survey Finds
Understanding Evolution
Welcome to Evolution 101!
Lines of evidence: The science of evolution
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Liar. God most definitely DID kill poor no-free-will Pharaoh. The bible clearly, and without ambiguity, says that not only did god murder Pharaoh, but that gave god MUCH-MUCH GLORY.
It seems your god gets GLORY out of MURDER.
Including murdering babies.... multiple times...
Wow... just.... wow.... "dedicating" is your new word for "making babies dead"?
Seriously?
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
That makes sense. Thanks!
The beginning is for you to produce the evidence what is in the Bible is a myth.
It does snot. I gave you several verses that said Pharaoh not only hardened his own heart, one of them said he hardened it it AGAIN.
You choose to ignore them because it shows you are wrong.
You list 7 out of 39 got at lest one of them wrong. Washington was not a deist. Even those who were deist, believed in God and that would influence what they contributed to the constitution.
It is no my history. I quoted from reliable sources.
You are missing the point. When the Catholic church got into politics and tried to rule a country, it caused strife and ruined religion. State controlled religion destroys the right to worship as one pleases. The Catholic church demanded everyone worship their way or be killed. If they had gotten control of the government, it would have been "their way or the highway, and woe to those who would not conform,
That was the main reason the pilgrams left and one reason other left also.
Parroting what I said I would do is not predicting, Here is a real prediction---you will not cut and paste the evidence from any of you links. I will also include the reason----you wold if you could but you can't. They have none.
Here is a fact. It took you more time to make your list of opinions, than it would have taken you to cut and paste the evidence from even one of them.
You would if you could , but you can't.
Prove me wrong.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Oh, like you've provided evidence for the claims you've made? I think not. The fact that you can't prove anything in the bible ever happened is evidence enough.
And I posted several more that clearly place ownership of that action to your god. Shall we compare the number of times it says your god hardened his heart to how many times it claims Pharaoh did himself?
Ironic, as that's what you did to my entire post (with references, even).
Provide some evidence then, not just you saying "nuh uh."
Not your god, and it would not necessarily contribute to the writing of the Constitution - especially when it so very clearly does not favor one religion or another in action or terminology. You need to actually learn what Deism is.
I see, so your god hasn't actually said anything regarding ISIS, it's just your OPINION. Well, you're not your god (or perhaps you are?) so I think we'll wait to see what he thinks. It is also highly ironic (and hypocritical) that your god should even think to hate murdering the innocent when he's so very good at it. Perhaps he hates the competition?
First you would actually have to refute my position. Not just say "no you're wrong" and hurl childish insults.
And I don't think you're truly grasping the concept of no knowledge of good and evil, right from wrong.
Eat what; the fruit that his rib-wife brought home? Why should he not trust her?
I know, right? It's astounding that you think "I'm going to send my me-son for you to kill so that it'll cure your sins--but only if you believe me-him" somehow translates to your god having this perfect love and never hating anyone.
Yes, we know that you reject anything that doesn't come from your understanding of your book. This is becoming very clear.
And those sources would be...?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
First of all, are you aware of the history of early Protestantism and the actions and teachings of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli that mimic what the CC did? Yes, it was wrong, imo, what the CC did, but unfortunately that tended to be par for the course.
BTW, it was the Puritans who left for reasons of persecution, whereas the Pilgrims left for mainly economic reasons. Later, they merged to form the Congregational Church, which was the largest denomination in the northeast U.S.
Also, just a reminder that the Pilgrims and Puritans committed genocide on Amerindians, killing millions either directly or indirectly. At least the CC tried to protect Indians, refusing to classify them as "slaves", which put the church at odds with the Spanish and Portuguese secular leaders in the Americas.
Yes some of the reformers did some very unChristians things, but their goal was right. The CC had become corrupt and the reformation got Christianity back on the right track---sol scriptura.
I'm not much on church history, so I will take your word for it.
The CC did their share of killing with their inquisitions.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Wrong. The bible is your CLAIM --- you need to prove your CLAIM before you can use your CLAIM as evidence.
Until you can PROVE your CLAIM? It can safely be dismissed as false without further ado.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
But. I used the meme that I was a PROPHET first.
And you then copied without so much as an acknowledgement.
That's called <something bad> but I'm too polite to say it.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Note the double standard that you are using with the above.
So, the Protestants get a free ride on their killings?
BTW, the Vatican tried to stop the Inquisitions but had no power over the Spanish authorities.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
This will be the last reply until you can fix the nightmare that is your quoting habits. It's not hard to separate quoted segments to where your replies do not need to be copied and pasted from a malformed quote block, as you do so with other users. If you cannot put effort into this discussion, then you cannot expect effort to be reciprocated.
Pharaoh did it: 4 times
Actually we can. When there is zero archeological remains and evidence for several hundreds of thousands of Jews wandering a small patch of land for 40 years, it can be concluded as true that no one wandered--that it never happened. When there is no record of Hebrew slaves in any of the Egyptian Pharaoh's during a timespan most likely to be when Moses supposedly lived, guess what? There was no Slavery in Egypt period. When there is no archeological, anthropological, or geological record for any of the ten plagues? You guessed it; they didn't happen.
Petty. But you don't see me out here trying to prove that the skydome is a skull, do you?
God did it: 14 times
Pharaoh did it: 4 times
I gave ample evidence that Washington was a deist, not a christian - as you claim. And your claim is severely lacking in evidence.
Yes, they believe there is a god. But not your god, and not your religion's tenants. Deists are not Christians.
No, not everyone. You might be so politically weak that your are unable to separate your beliefs from your decisions, but others are thankfully not. The Founding Fathers - by evidence of the Constitution - clearly made this distinction.
Disagree with me all you want, but do it without the following:
Not for Adam and Eve prior to eating the fruit. Your accusations that I don't understand your bible don't cut the mustard - they don't answer the question, and only arrogantly dismiss it. Why would Adam not trust Eve?
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Can I say... the above was beautifully done, without anyone worrying about who is macho and who isn't?