Jesus, the Christian Myth

BilliardsBall said:

serious scholars do not debate that Jesus preached, was baptized, crucified

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Actually, there are several prominent scholars that do just that, and they are/were quite serious. Dorothy Murdoch (deceased) and Richard Carrier are two prominent names among mythicists. Here are others.

Unbelievers have no skin in this game. It doesn't change anything for us either way whether Jesus is a mythical or legendary character.

Incidentally, your gently persuasive framing of anybody who disagrees as being not serious reminds me of a CS Lewis quote that essentially defines him for me:

"All I am in private life is a literary critic and historian, that's my job. And I'm prepared to say on that basis if anyone thinks the Gospels are either legends or novels, then that person is simply showing his incompetence as a literary critic." - CS Lewis

He's telling you that if you disagree with him on a subjective matter, literary criticism, that you are incompetent. Isn't that the same as a movie critic saying such a thing. Consider this from a movie critic:

"All I am in private life is a movie critic. That's my job. And I'm prepared to say on that basis if anyone thinks the movies I like are bad or the ones I dislike are good,, then that person is simply showing his incompetence as a movie critic."

You're closer to that now than you should like to be.

MJFlores said:

You quoted: "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me." Rom.15:30

I see 2 - that does not mean tri (three) - nity. And this does not prove the trinity. Notice the preposition by? BY is indicating the means of achieving something. In the Easy to Read Version of the Bible the verse is written like this:

Brothers and sisters, I beg you to help me in my work by praying to God for me. Do this because of our Lord Jesus and the love that the Spirit gives us.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19

...in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit does not say Trinity at all. It is in the name of...

John the Baptizer mentioned this:

“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11 Luke 3:16

Does it mean fire is also God? Definitely not.

You quoted Acts 5:3-4
You have not lied to men but to God." Acts 5:3-4
Who did Ananias lie to? To the Holy Spirit. vs. 3
Who did Ananias lie to? To God. vs. 4
In this 2 verse context the same person is lied to.
The Holy Spirit is defined as God. - your conclusion

How about the Son?
Missing?
Did Ananias lied to the Son?
No mention in Acts 5:3-4

He lied to the Holy Spirit
He lied to God

Matthew 12:31-32 New International Version (NIV)
This is what my Lord Jesus said:

And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Every kind of sin can be forgiven
Speaking against the Son of Man can be forgiven
Who is the Son of Man?
That proves my point that my Lord Jesus is the a Man.

But speaking against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.

There is no co-equal Trinity here.

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Starting with this post I will respond to several of your assertions.
You deny that Matthew 28:19 speaks of 3 but only 2. Let’s read it again:
"Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the the Spirit, to strive together with me in YOUR PRAYERS TO GOD for me." Romans 15:30
1. Lord Jesus Christ
2. Spirit
3. God - Understood by all as the Father.
There is the three you missed.

You deny the doctrine of Trinity. You do, however, promote the Father as God and the Holy Spirit as God. What you have also admitted is that, while you deny Jesus is God, the impersonal, non-material spoken word of God is God. Apparently, in spite of your vehement denials, you actually do believe in a trinity. Just not the Biblical one.

You also mistakenly believe that because the Scriptures describe Christ as a man, which He most certainly is, it means that that is all He is. So in your unbelief you shut your eyes to the rest of the testimony of Scripture which attests to His divinity. "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more reason to kill Him, becaue He was not only breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God." John 5:18 Just as the Scribes and Pharisees of old who, when even witnessing His miracles and being directly confronted with His words concerning His work and Person, refused to believe in who He said He was (see the I AM - Gr. ego eimi - references in seven examples in John, Isaiah 41:4; 43:10, 25; 45:18; 46:4; 51:12; 52:6 back to Ex.3) The Septuagint ego eimi is translated from the Hebrew ani hu. The point here should be clear. Jesus proclaimed to be the Yahweh, Jehovah, I AM, God, to the Scribes and Pharisees. The fact that these ruling religious leaders understood fully this claim of Christ is demonstrated when in John 8: 58-59 "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.' Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him..."
And in John 10:24-33: "The Jews then, gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, 'how long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ (Messiah: Son of God Jn.20:31; Son of the living God Matt.16:16) tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you did not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep, hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one (in essence).' The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of them are you stoning Me?' The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work, we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.'" They saw the foretold acts of the Messiah that were certifying Jesus' person and ministry. They were eyewitnesses to His claims to deity. But like you they rejected both the evidence and His word concerning Himself. Unless repentance occurred the result is: "...for unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins. So they were saying to Him, 'Who are You?' Jesus said to them, 'What have I been saying to you from the beginning?'" John 8:24-25

You are correct. Matt. 28:19 does not say the word Trinity. It does, however, delineate it in naming the Persons that exist as the triune God. As I stated in an earlier post you are committing the word/concept fallacy on this point. Furthermore the when the text in the Bible is referring to God you cannot insist that at every mention of God that all the Persons, by name, must be explicitly stated. As I already stated each Person of the Trinity has taken up different aspects of work concerning God’s creatures. So sometimes the emphasis will come to the forefront of the One or Ones involved.

I asked you to give me your definition of the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". You gave me Merriam Webster'so definition of the word blaspheme. I was hoping for more than a minimalistic avoidance. However, because of the Biblical/ theological explanation of the eternal consequences of committing this "unpardonable sin" and the possibility of standing upon that precipice, you might avoid engaging in that discussion.
The overwhelming concensus amoung Theologians can be easily ascertained with a simple Web search. Basically it is this: "A determined unbelief, the refusal-after seeing all the evidence necessary to complete understanding, even to consider believing in Christ. This was blasphemy against Jesus in His diety, against the Spirit of God Who uniquely indwelt and empowered Him. It reflected determined rejection of Jesus as the Messiah against every evidence and argument. It reflected seeing the Truth incarnate and then knowingly rejecting Him and condemning Him. It demonstrated an absolute and permanent refusal to believe which resulted in loss of opportunity ever to "be forgiven...either in this age or in the age to come."...During Jesus earthly ministry, the unbelieving Pharasees and all the others who "blasphemed" the Spirit cut themselves off from God’s mercy not because it was not offered but because it was abundently offered yet rebelliously and permenantly rejected as satanic. (Look familiar?) In a similar way people today, can someone totally turn their back on God's revelation that they permanently cut themselves off from salvation." An excerpt from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary on Matthew 12

It is my sincere hope that you would take the Biblical warning and reconsider your position, prayerfully search the Scriptures testifying to both the human and divine nature of Christ described by Theologians as the "hypostatic union" and the historical Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

Rick B said:

Starting with this post I will respond to several of your assertions.
You deny that Matthew 28:19 speaks of 3 but only 2. Let’s read it again:
"Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the the Spirit, to strive together with me in YOUR PRAYERS TO GOD for me." Romans 15:30
1. Lord Jesus Christ
2. Spirit
3. God - Understood by all as the Father.
There is the three you missed.

You deny the doctrine of Trinity. You do, however, promote the Father as God and the Holy Spirit as God. What you have also admitted is that, while you deny Jesus is God, the impersonal, non-material spoken word of God is God. Apparently, in spite of your vehement denials, you actually do believe in a trinity. Just not the Biblical one.

You also mistakenly believe that because the Scriptures describe Christ as a man, which He most certainly is, it means that that is all He is. So in your unbelief you shut your eyes to the rest of the testimony of Scripture which attests to His divinity. "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more reason to kill Him, becaue He was not only breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God." John 5:18 Just as the Scribes and Pharisees of old who, when even witnessing His miracles and being directly confronted with His words concerning His work and Person, refused to believe in who He said He was (see the I AM - Gr. ego eimi - references in seven examples in John, Isaiah 41:4; 43:10, 25; 45:18; 46:4; 51:12; 52:6 back to Ex.3) The Septuagint ego eimi is translated from the Hebrew ani hu. The point here should be clear. Jesus proclaimed to be the Yahweh, Jehovah, I AM, God, to the Scribes and Pharisees. The fact that these ruling religious leaders understood fully this claim of Christ is demonstrated when in John 8: 58-59 "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.' Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him..."
And in John 10:24-33: "The Jews then, gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, 'how long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ (Messiah: Son of God Jn.20:31; Son of the living God Matt.16:16) tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you did not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep, hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one (in essence).' The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of them are you stoning Me?' The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work, we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.'" They saw the foretold acts of the Messiah that were certifying Jesus' person and ministry. They were eyewitnesses to His claims to deity. But like you they rejected both the evidence and His word concerning Himself. Unless repentance occurred the result is: "...for unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins. So they were saying to Him, 'Who are You?' Jesus said to them, 'What have I been saying to you from the beginning?'" John 8:24-25

You are correct. Matt. 28:19 does not say the word Trinity. It does, however, delineate it in naming the Persons that exist as the triune God. As I stated in an earlier post you are committing the word/concept fallacy on this point. Furthermore the when the text in the Bible is referring to God you cannot insist that at every mention of God that all the Persons, by name, must be explicitly stated. As I already stated each Person of the Trinity has taken up different aspects of work concerning God’s creatures. So sometimes the emphasis will come to the forefront of the One or Ones involved.

I asked you to give me your definition of the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". You gave me Merriam Webster'so definition of the word blaspheme. I was hoping for more than a minimalistic avoidance. However, because of the Biblical/ theological explanation of the eternal consequences of committing this "unpardonable sin" and the possibility of standing upon that precipice, you might avoid engaging in that discussion.
The overwhelming concensus amoung Theologians can be easily ascertained with a simple Web search. Basically it is this: "A determined unbelief, the refusal-after seeing all the evidence necessary to complete understanding, even to consider believing in Christ. This was blasphemy against Jesus in His diety, against the Spirit of God Who uniquely indwelt and empowered Him. It reflected determined rejection of Jesus as the Messiah against every evidence and argument. It reflected seeing the Truth incarnate and then knowingly rejecting Him and condemning Him. It demonstrated an absolute and permanent refusal to believe which resulted in loss of opportunity ever to "be forgiven...either in this age or in the age to come."...During Jesus earthly ministry, the unbelieving Pharasees and all the others who "blasphemed" the Spirit cut themselves off from God’s mercy not because it was not offered but because it was abundently offered yet rebelliously and permenantly rejected as satanic. (Look familiar?) In a similar way people today, can someone totally turn their back on God's revelation that they permanently cut themselves off from salvation." An excerpt from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary on Matthew 12

It is my sincere hope that you would take the Biblical warning and reconsider your position, prayerfully search the Scriptures testifying to both the human and divine nature of Christ described by Theologians as the "hypostatic union" and the historical Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

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That was long. I would appreciate things which are short and sweet. Anyway, you got the long form - like a buffet - chances are when its lengthy, some words might not be noticed. I hope I could notice all of them.

You said:

"Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the the Spirit, to strive together with me in YOUR PRAYERS TO GOD for me." Romans 15:30
1. Lord Jesus Christ
2. Spirit
3. God - Understood by all as the Father.
There is the three you missed.

There you go, God is the Father. He is not the Lord Jesus Christ and not the Holy Spirit. There is no Trinity. The Father is the only true God. How would you say it? The fish is caught by its mouth.

I do not believe in the Trinity.

THE FATHER IS THE ONE TRUE GOD

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself clearly said that the Father is the only true God:

“Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You…
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:1, 3, NKJV)

Even Apostle Paul also explicitly said that the Father alone is the true God:

“Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” (I Corinthians 8:6, NKJV)

"blasphemy of / sin against the Holy Spirit"

It applies to people who people who have received the Holy Spirit and sinned against it.

The Pharisees and the Israelites received the Holy Spirit

Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them. Isaiah 63:10

Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them, Isaiah 63:11

The disciples and the first century church of Christ received the Holy Spirit

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

That is why they were able to write down the New Testament scriptures.

Acts 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

Who sent who?

Is the Holy Spirit sent?
Yes the Holy Spirit is sent.
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. John 15:26

Is the Lord Jesus Christ sent?
Yes the Lord Jesus Christ was sent?
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. John 8:42

The Father sent the Son
The Son sent the Holy Spirit

John 13:16 Common English Bible (CEB)

I assure you, servants aren’t greater than their master, nor are those who are sent greater than the one who sent them.

Therefore - the Father is greater than the Son
The Son is greater than the Holy Spirit

Where is the Trinity now? An unequal sided triangle?



The FATHER alone is the only true God

The Lord Jesus Christ is not god
The Holy Spirit is not god

There is NO TRINITY.

MJFlores said:

The Lord Jesus Christ is not god
The Holy Spirit is not god

There is NO TRINITY.

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WRONG!!

Unless you want to say that YOU are a spirit and YOU don't have a soul and don't live in a body.

KenS said:

WRONG!!

Unless you want to say that YOU are a spirit and YOU don't have a soul and don't live in a body.

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Trinity isn't found in the Bible.
That is factual
The doctrine is man-made
It was made a long time ago 325 A.D. and 381 A.D.


And over centuries, people were made to believe in that doctrine. They made paintings of it, like this one:


The doctrine of the Trinity is an abomination and they made God a monster. The truth is this doctrine will not reap eternal life for those who believe this thing - and this fact is mentioned by the Lord Jesus himself:

John 17:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

The Father is the only true God
This was spoken by the Lord Jesus himself
And knowing the Father as the only true God
and knowing Jesus Christ was sent
is eternal life

If people do not believe
cannot believe
refuse to believe
they would not have eternal life

So the Trinity is nothing but a false doctrine made, stamp and delivered from where Satan has his throne and lives nearby.

MJFlores said:

Trinity isn't found in the Bible.
That is factual

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Actually you are wrong. The word is Godhead (look it up)

And unless you are just a spirit with no soul and no body, you are a triune being also.

KenS said:

Actually you are wrong. The word is Godhead (look it up)

And unless you are just a spirit with no soul and no body, you are a triune being also.

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KenS said:

WRONG!!

Unless you want to say that YOU are a spirit and YOU don't have a soul and don't live in a body.

Click to expand...

Godhead (from Middle English godhede, "godhood", and unrelated to the modern word "head"), may refer to:
Godhead - Wikipedia

• Deity
• Divinity, the quality of being God
• Conceptions of God
• Godhead in Judaism, the unknowable aspect of God, which lies beyond his actions or emanations
• Godhead in Christianity, the substantial essence or nature of the Christian God
• Godhead, the concept of God in Mormonism
• God in Hinduism
• 
  • Brahman, the divine source of being, through which all emanates
  • Paramatma, the "oversoul" or supreme spirit
  • Three godheads (Ayyavazhi) or Trimurti, Brahmā, Vishnu and Śhiva
  • Svayam Bhagavan or Supreme Personality of Godhead, the divine person from whom all emanates

Other uses:

• Godhead (band), an American industrial rock band
• 
  
  
• Godhead (album), an album by Scottish dream pop band Lowlife
• 
  
  
• Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a book by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
• 
  
  
• Godhead Trilogy, science fiction series by James K. Morrow

Godhead in Christianity - Wikipedia
Godhead is a Middle English variant of the word godhood, and denotes the divinity or substance (ousia) of the Christian God, the substantial impersonal being of God, as opposed to the individual persons or hypostases of the Trinity; in other words, the Godhead refers to the "what" of God, and God refers to the "who" of God. The concept is especially important in Christian negative theology, e.g., the theology of the Godhead according to Pseudo-Dionysius. Within some traditions, such as Mormonism, the term is used as a nontrinitarian substitute for the term Trinity, denoting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not as a Trinity, but as a unified council of separate beings in full harmony.


But for me, I rather believe what is written in the Bible:

1 Corinthians 8:6 New King James Version (NKJV)

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

MJFlores said:

Godhead (from Middle English godhede, "godhood", and unrelated to the modern word "head"), may refer to:
Godhead - Wikipedia

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Wikipedia isn't the quotable source.

It is theotes which occurs in Colossians 2:9. Here Paul declares that "all the fullness of the Godhead" dwells in Christ "bodily." The phrase "fullness of the Godhead" is an especially emphatic one. It means everything without exception which goes to make up the Godhead, the totality of all that enters into the conception of Godhood. All this, says Paul, dwells in Christ "bodily," that is after such a fashion as to be manifested in connection with a bodily organism. This is the distinction of Christ:

in the Father and in the Spirit the whole plenitude of the Godhead dwells also, but not "bodily"; in them it is not manifested in connection with a bodily life. It is the incarnation which Paul has in mind; and he tells us that in the incarnate Son, the fullness of the Godhead dwells. The term chosen to express the Godhead here is the strongest and the most unambiguously decisive which the language affords. Theiotes may mean all that theotes can mean; on monotheistic lips it does mean just what theotes means; but theotes must mean the utmost that either term can mean. The distinction is, not that theotes refers to the essence and theiotes to the attributes; we cannot separate the essence and the attributes. Where the essence is, there the attributes are; they are merely the determinants of the essence. And where the attributes are, there the essence is; it is merely the thing, of the kind of which they are the determinants. The distinction is that theotes emphasizes that it is the highest stretch of Divinity which is in question, while theiotes might possibly be taken as referring to Deity at a lower level. It it not merely such divinity as is shared by all the gods many and lords many of the heathen world, to which "heroes" might aspire, and "demons" attain, all the plenitude of which dwells in Christ as incarnate; but that Deity which is peculiar to the high gods; or, since Paul is writing out of a monotheistic consciousness, that Deity which is the Supreme God alone. All the fullness of supreme Deity dwells in Christ bodily. There is nothing in the God who is over all which is not in Christ. Probably no better rendering of this idea is afforded by our modern English than the term "Godhead," in which the qualitative notion still lurks, though somewhat obscured behind the individualizing implication, and which in any event emphasizes precisely what Paul wishes here to assert--that all that enters into the conception of God, and makes God what we mean by the term "God," dwells in Christ, and is manifested in Him in connection with a bodily organism.

Benjamin B. Warfield

One MUST be careful about another Gospel..

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.




One must also study to show oneself approved!! He must be able to divide the word of God correctly



1 Corinthians 8:6 New King James Version (NKJV)

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

If A = B and C = B then A = C

God = life; Lord Jesus = life then God is Lord Jesus
God = created and makes all thing exist; Lord Jesus through whom all things exist, then God = Lord Jesus

If God is Shepherd and Jesus is the Good Shepherd then God = Jesus
If God is Righteousness and Jesus is made to me righteousness then God = Jesus
If God is Shalom and Jesus gives me Shalom then God is Jesus.
If there is not other name higher than God, and Jesus is the name above all names then God = Jesus
If one should worship no there person but God and Angels worship Jesus, then God is Jesus

If you are a spirit, soul and body and all of them make up you and you were made in His likeness and in His image, then God is Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit.

KenS said:

One must also study to show oneself approved!! He must be able to divide the word of God correctly

1 Corinthians 8:6 New King James Version (NKJV)

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

If A = B and C = B then A = C

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1 Corinthians 8:6 New King James Version (NKJV)

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Now you used this verse - this is in English, isn't it so?

Who is the one God, of whom are all things, and we for Him?

1. the Father
2. Jesus Christ

Who is the one Lord who through whom are all things, and through whom we live.?

1. the Father
2. Jesus Christ

You know my question, about who the Antichrists are, is still pending. Was that a hard question to ask? I know the Antichrists could not answer that question.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Actually, there are several prominent scholars that do just that, and they are/were quite serious. Dorothy Murdoch (deceased) and Richard Carrier are two prominent names among mythicists. Here are others.

Unbelievers have no skin in this game. It doesn't change anything for us either way whether Jesus is a mythical or legendary character.

Incidentally, your gently persuasive framing of anybody who disagrees as being not serious reminds me of a CS Lewis quote that essentially defines him for me:

"All I am in private life is a literary critic and historian, that's my job. And I'm prepared to say on that basis if anyone thinks the Gospels are either legends or novels, then that person is simply showing his incompetence as a literary critic." - CS Lewis

He's telling you that if you disagree with him on a subjective matter, literary criticism, that you are incompetent. Isn't that the same as a movie critic saying such a thing. Consider this from a movie critic:

"All I am in private life is a movie critic. That's my job. And I'm prepared to say on that basis if anyone thinks the movies I like are bad or the ones I dislike are good,, then that person is simply showing his incompetence as a movie critic."

You're closer to that now than you should like to be.

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Yes, there are several prominent scholars who argue that Jesus is ahistorical, which requires the following to be fulfilled:

1. They are less than 1 in 1,000 eminent/qualified religious or history scholars (whether or not they are in secular universities or seminaries).

2. They have to show how the non-supernatural elements of the gospels are falsified/falsifiable.

3. Further, their arguments are from silence (or accusing the Bible writers of lying).

MJFlores said:

Who is Jesus Christ talking to?
Isn't it the disciples?
Same verse - you quoted
Just raised it to 15 up to 20

John 14:15-20 New International Version (NIV)

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

If you use the bible which is understandable, without the ye and the hath - it would be fresh bread than reading

John 14:20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
View attachment 17095

Which the bible verse doesn't even say anything about the trinity but says On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Totally irrelevant in comprehending the Trinity - assuming it is there.

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I believe you are laboring to understand what the verse says and failing. In this verse there is Jesus (God speaking), the Father (God outside of Jesus) and the Paraclete (God in believers)

It Aint Necessarily So said:

OK.

Do you think that others should believe that as well? Should I? If so, why? On what basis?

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Yes!

I believe people should believe the truth instead of getting caught up in imaginations or fantasies.

I believe this will do: Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge

Muffled said:

I believe you are laboring to understand what the verse says and failing. In this verse there is Jesus (God speaking), the Father (God outside of Jesus) and the Paraclete (God in believers)

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Now your "god" has a multiple personality disorder


Jesus is a man (not God)

John 8:40-45 New International Version (NIV)

As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!


Wasn't that clear? If it is not, maybe Jesus is definitely right about your father.

It is telling that MJFlores never actually addresses Scripture which refutes his assertions on any exegetical grounds but simply diverts to offering pictures, indoctrinated mantras, insinuations, and truncated texts derived from which ever English Bible version which seems to support his presuppositions.

BilliardsBall said:

Yes, there are several prominent scholars who argue that Jesus is ahistorical, which requires the following to be fulfilled:

1. They are less than 1 in 1,000 eminent/qualified religious or history scholars (whether or not they are in secular universities or seminaries).

2. They have to show how the non-supernatural elements of the gospels are falsified/falsifiable.

3. Further, their arguments are from silence (or accusing the Bible writers of lying).

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Once again, you ignored every element of my post.

I no longer consider posts addressed to you to actually be written to you. I have no expectation of you reading, carefully considering, and responding to the points made. I will still respond to your posting, but there is no expectation of you reading or acknowledging any of it. You have no sense of duty in that area.

I will have another purpose when I do that.

Muffled said:

I believe people should believe the truth instead of getting caught up in imaginations or fantasies.

I believe this will do: Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge

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I'm a skeptic. I need a reason to believe anything.

Rick B said:

It is telling that MJFlores never actually addresses Scripture which refutes his assertions on any exegetical grounds but simply diverts to offering pictures, indoctrinated mantras, insinuations, and truncated texts derived from which ever English Bible version which seems to support his presuppositions.

Click to expand...

What do you prefer a non English Bible? Will you be able to understand Tagalog? If it is written in the Bible, it is there.



You can accept it or reject it but it has been there for centuries even before Columbus found the New World and even before Emperor Constantine convened the bishops to edict Jesus is God doctrine where Satan lives.

MJFlores said:

What do you prefer a non English Bible? Will you be able to understand Tagalog? If it is written in the Bible, it is there.

You can accept it or reject it but it has been there for centuries even before Columbus found the New World and even before Emperor Constantine convened the bishops to edict Jesus is God doctrine where Satan lives.

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You might receive more credibility if, instead of using modern fiction writers like Dan Brown, you would quote actual church historians.

Rick B said:

You might receive more credibility if, instead of using modern fiction writers like Dan Brown, you would quote actual church historians.

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Oki doki!

Council of Nicaea, (325), the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, meeting in ancient Nicaea (now İznik, Tur.). It was called by the emperor Constantine I, an unbaptized catechumen, or neophyte, who presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions.
Council of Nicaea | Christianity [325]

Imagine that? an unbaptized Emperor presiding a council to declare Jesus is God?

I rather take it from the Bible - let us use the Catholic Bible so no one would accuse me of favoring one version over the other. The Catholics are the ones who introduced Nicene Creed, isn't it? Where they started teaching that Jesus is God doctrine which the whole world has inherited, including the Baptists.



According to the Creed Jesus Christ is God from God
But let us take a look at the Bible which precedes the Nicaean creed of 325 AD. Oh, it must be a Catholic Version:


John 8:40-45
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

but now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are indeed doing what your father does.” They said to him, “We are not illegitimate children; we have one father, God himself.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word. You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.



How about the KJV?
John 8:40-45 King James Version (KJV)

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Do I need to explain?
Those words are very clear to me.
and it is from a Catholic Bible and the KJV?
They are saying the same thing.

Tell you what - I believe what Jesus said!

The so-called documentation of Jesus is debatable. One of the sources often cited is Josephus, just watch this portion of this video:


No need to watch the whole thing, skip to 12:50, it's roughly 8 minutes long. If even that's too long for you just speed up the video to 2x speed. Summed up, Josephus is a forgery.