How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka · May 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
To a Hindu 'no more comings and goings'. I had found what every mystic has searched for for ages.

Again you're misinterpreting Hinduism in your unique Baha'i' way. For Hindus, this end to comings and goings is moksha, the final outcome. Up until then we are constantly coming and going, under the triple bondages, samsara, and all that.

What you're describing for a Hindu is just the settling into a single sampradaya, or school.

So the difference is registering at a school versus graduating from the school. Not the same thing ... at all.

If the end of the search is simply finding the prophet that's fine. But Hindus continue to work on changing their character until all karmas are resolved. Another very major paradigm difference of course.

sayak83 · May 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Your description in the first paragraph is beautiful and I couldn't agree more. We are told there is the higher self and the lower self so I think that the higher self is the godly self and the lower self is the base instincts.

I think the difference is that Baha'u'llah describes it as ....

The Self of God standing within Him with laws. (Seven Valleys)

“Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.”

I think I am saying that when reading the Writings of Bahaullah alone, with detachment I discovered God speaking through Him. That every Word of His was not from Him but from God.

His Words imparted to me an indescribable joy and bliss, a state of heaven, nirvana, enlightenment. I felt I had finally come home. To a Hindu 'no more comings and goings'. I had found what every mystic has searched for for ages.

But I can't give this to anyone because each must search for Himself and depending on the fervency of his search he will be rewarded.

I can only say that there is a Hidden Gift of immeasurable proportions within the Words of Baha'u'llah.

In a prayer He asks God to enable people to find it.

“Inspire then my soul, O my God, with Thy wondrous remembrance, that I may glorify Thy name. Number me not with them who read Thy words and fail to find Thy hidden gift which, as decreed by Thee, is contained therein,”

Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, 'Abdu'l-Bahá. “Bahá’í

It is there for all.

There are many similarities certainly, but I suspect that the infallibility doctrine will prove a stumbling block with regards to differences. But as long as you practice your faith in accordance to your beliefs and do not assert the normative obligation that I also convert to yours as its better than mine, we are cool.

Unveiled Artist · May 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
I agree with you that what you say applies to us people. The Manifestations of God however, we believe, had innate knowledge of everything so are not constrained by human limitations.

I guess that is where my lack of belief of an authoritative god and any form of worship comes in.

I dont see humans having limitations. If anything, our experiences in "god" are not limited as that qould be a contradiction if one defines themselves a s a child of a creatoe.

When you use god as a source and the source is the same for all revealed faiths, that would mean since followers dont have the rights to interpret their own scriptures, they basically have no choice but to be united. Since TLC defines greater peace from god (or so have you) god is tearing the heart out of a person to make peace.

Thatz just so, uh, wrong.

Not just for bahai but I have issues with christians and human scrifice, and islam with obedience. If it takes tearing someones TLC to create greater pece i feel for non god revealed religions its doing the opposite. Just bahai doesnt see it. It would change how you see spirituality if you had.

loverofhumanity · May 4, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Again you're misinterpreting Hinduism in your unique Baha'i' way. For Hindus, this end to comings and goings is moksha, the final outcome. Up until then we are constantly coming and going, under the triple bondages, samsara, and all that.

What you're describing for a Hindu is just the settling into a single sampradaya, or school.

So the difference is registering at a school versus graduating from the school. Not the same thing ... at all.

If the end of the search is simply finding the prophet that's fine. But Hindus continue to work on changing their character until all karmas are resolved. Another very major paradigm difference of course.

We also continue to refine our character. There is no end to that.

loverofhumanity · May 4, 2017

Carlita said:
I guess that is where my lack of belief of an authoritative god and any form of worship comes in.

I dont see humans having limitations. If anything, our experiences in "god" are not limited as that qould be a contradiction if one defines themselves a s a child of a creatoe.

When you use god as a source and the source is the same for all revealed faiths, that would mean since followers dont have the rights to interpret their own scriptures, they basically have no choice but to be united. Since TLC defines greater peace from god (or so have you) god is tearing the heart out of a person to make peace.

Thatz just so, uh, wrong.

Not just for bahai but I have issues with christians and human scrifice, and islam with obedience. If it takes tearing someones TLC to create greater pece i feel for non god revealed religions its doing the opposite. Just bahai doesnt see it. It would change how you see spirituality if you had.

Everyone is free to interpret for himself of course. But when interpretations differ, instead of just agreeing to disagree, believers have tried to force their interpretation on the rest and if they could not get their way then they formed another sect with the people who agreed with them. That is what tore the heart out of religion and caused wars and splits unnecessarily.

loverofhumanity · May 4, 2017

sayak83 said:
There are many similarities certainly, but I suspect that the infallibility doctrine will prove a stumbling block with regards to differences. But as long as you practice your faith in accordance to your beliefs and do not assert the normative obligation that I also convert to yours as its better than mine, we are cool.

The important thing is we are at peace with each other and get along. Our Faith is not superior to yours or any other Faith. You are a fellow human and we cannot judge you or your beliefs. We cannot say a person is an infidel or not 'saved'.

As I said before, it is a privilege that you even speak with me and I want be on good terms always so things like conversion are out of the question. If I could just be a friend of Hindus I would be happy but I make many mistakes and my diversity sometimes offends but I'm trying.

About infallibility, so far it seems to be not creating wars or major conflicts.

Unveiled Artist · May 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Everyone is free to interpret for himself of course. But when interpretations differ, instead of just agreeing to disagree, believers have tried to force their interpretation on the rest and if they could not get their way then they formed another sect with the people who agreed with them. That is what tore the heart out of religion and caused wars and splits unnecessarily.

Interpretations differ because spirituality is different for each person. Why would we expect each person to agree with another about their faith? @adrian009 expresses his view of Bahai faith different (and some opposite) than you do and you both identify as Bahai. Should I reinterpret your faith because of your disagreements and differences?

Even more so, if you two caused wars, who am I spiritually to change your religion and interpret your religion in order for you not to fight. If anything, it would be a legal and political manner I want to change not a spiritual one. Respecting diversity is respecting both of your point of views even though you express it differently.

However, what you're saying is not the case. You're basing a person's spirituality on other people's wars. Changing and reinterpreting their religion is not the answer. Addressing the legal and political issues are better. Religion is a personal thing. When you "renew" another religions regardless the motive that tears the heart of religion.

The former is political, the latter is about morals. We can help the politics but addressing people's morals are within that person and/or their community not an outside party.

Vinayaka · May 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
We also continue to refine our character. There is no end to that.

For Hindus there is an end, just as I said before. It's called moksha. For Bahai's there is also an end. It is called physical death, and maybe living in heaven after that I suppose, but it's you the person dong that in Abrahamism. In Hinduism, its the soul, The person changes with each new birth. The paradigms are very very different. If we talk long enough you might finally see that.

The Bahai'i faith and Hinduism are very very different on many many levels.

Vinayaka · May 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Our Faith is not superior to yours or any other Faith.

If it makes no difference, why be Baha'i"? Be a Christian, be a Hindu, be whatever.

You do believe your faith is superiour. That is why you're a Bahai.

loverofhumanity · May 4, 2017

Carlita said:
Interpretations differ because spirituality is different for each person. Why would we expect each person to agree with another about their faith? @adrian009 expresses his view of Bahai faith different (and some opposite) than you do and you both identify as Bahai. Should I reinterpret your faith because of your disagreements and differences?

Even more so, if you two caused wars, who am I spiritually to change your religion and interpret your religion in order for you not to fight. If anything, it would be a legal and political manner I want to change not a spiritual one. Respecting diversity is respecting both of your point of views even though you express it differently.

However, what you're saying is not the case. You're basing a person's spirituality on other people's wars. Changing and reinterpreting their religion is not the answer. Addressing the legal and political issues are better. Religion is a personal thing. When you "renew" another religions regardless the motive that tears the heart of religion.

The former is political, the latter is about morals. We can help the politics but addressing people's morals are within that person and/or their community not an outside party.

But if we tried to push our interpretation on other Baha'is we would be in deep trouble. The House of Justice would definitely intervene if we tried to each convince other Baha'is that our interpretations were correct.

If we persisted in gathering believers around us who would agree with our interpretations, thus causing rifts and disunity, we would almost certainly be shown the door.

But in other Faiths like Christianity they have split into 40,000 sects just over disagreements of interpretation.

We are allowed to have our own views but not permitted to force them on others.

Unveiled Artist · May 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
But if we tried to push our interpretation on other Baha'is we would be in deep trouble. The House of Justice would definitely intervene if we tried to each convince other Baha'is that our interpretations were correct.

But the House of Justice isn't an outside party. Of course, "brothers and sisters" would correct each other. However, if someone from another family tried to all because they are connected as human beings, there's a problem.

loverofhumanity said:
If we persisted in gathering believers around us who would agree with our interpretations, thus causing rifts and disunity, we would almost certainly be shown the door.

That's what your religion teaches. In order to have peace is for god to work through the prophets and educators throughout the time. Since those methods "didn't work", The Bab and Bahaullah came and made things right for today. You're "gathering believers" to make unity while the followers are correcting you and you're saying that they have no right to interpret just the authority of your faith and the god you believe in. That causes disunity.

loverofhumanity said:
But in other Faiths like Christianity they have split into 40,000 sects just over disagreements of interpretation.

That doesn't address the person's and/or community's agreements with interpretation. Either you can watch t.v. and see all the c/ about The Church and coverups or you can actually go to a Parish and see The Church worship Christ in love and in spirit. It's up to you.

loverofhumanity said:
We are allowed to have our own views but not permitted to force them on others.

That's why, in my opinion, there shouldn't be prophet faiths. It completely contradicts this statement; and, I agree with it if it were possible. People want someone to follow.

CG Didymus · May 5, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Working on the premise that there are other civilisations throughout the universe, we are likely the most backward of them all because in our recent recorded history we have continually chosen conflict above peace and the animal kingdom has often been superior to us.

God would be quite disappointed in that we continually make choices that cause us more suffering and deprive us of true happiness which is spiritual happiness.

There are likely other civilisations in the universe that have no interest in war and treat each other far better than we do.

Noble he created us then or stupid? Yet, knowing how dumb we are, God gives us just enough information to get us to misuse it. This is related to what I ask Christians. In their heaven all is going to be perfect. Then why did their God create people that he knew would continually mess things up? And then judge them for failing. And the only people he accepts into the Christian heaven are those that say they believe in his son, yet they keep failing, because their God made people imperfect.

At least the Baha'i God tries to take a more positive attitude. So, I have to ask... are you sure the angry, vengeance seeking God of the Bible is the same as your peace-loving God?

CG Didymus · May 5, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
But if we tried to push our interpretation on other Baha'is we would be in deep trouble. The House of Justice would definitely intervene if we tried to each convince other Baha'is that our interpretations were correct.

If we persisted in gathering believers around us who would agree with our interpretations, thus causing rifts and disunity, we would almost certainly be shown the door.

But in other Faiths like Christianity they have split into 40,000 sects just over disagreements of interpretation.

We are allowed to have our own views but not permitted to force them on others.

How many sects were there in Christianity before the Protestant Reformation? Wasn't there just the Orthodox Church and the more dominate, or dominating, Roman Universal Christian Church with a supposed infallible Pope leading them?

BeerMe · May 5, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

There is a little bit of truth and wisdom in all of them and practices of living that can help people. But where all of the others outside of Jesus leave off, Jesus continues and leads the way. His will is perfect and should you choose to accept him, you will be in the center of his perfect will for your life. He sets you up for an abundant Life and excuse me if I'm preaching, just trying to get the truth out, he will guide you and set you on high. None of those other teachers will, or I am willing to bet, offer that. Christ offers strict stipulations for following him though, which most people dislike and even abandon the faith for.

To answer your question, yes, there is wisdom in all religions, be it human created or not, but only Christ fulfills and saves. There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.

A lot of the non Christian movements were worldly attempts at treating societal problems, meditation, et al. But while the Buddha is content on receiving alms, Christ sets his followers up for subsistence, but sadly few want this as their hearts are set on the things of this world. if they are faithful, Christ will give each of his followers an abundant Life.

All other teachers eventually fail, ineffective meditative methods (because they are looking within themselves) but Jesus calls on the power of God and God does have an agenda and he drops heavy when you call on his name, so be ready. Jesus will take a person infinitely farther than any of the rest.

The status erected in these teachers' names were done so because they were pioneers in ancient behavioral treatment methods which have concurrently lasted for centuries, but this is not to say that their methods are best. Jesus' methods are best and the only way to heaven.

They did not pre exist. Their only special power were the techniques handed down to them from generations before, they were just good teachers, that's all. They lived one life. Jesus was given wisdom above from his father and that wisdom is perfect and eternal.

I hope that answers your question.

BeerMe · May 5, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Noble he created us then or stupid? Yet, knowing how dumb we are, God gives us just enough information to get us to misuse it. This is related to what I ask Christians. In their heaven all is going to be perfect. Then why did their God create people that he knew would continually mess things up? And then judge them for failing. And the only people he accepts into the Christian heaven are those that say they believe in his son, yet they keep failing, because their God made people imperfect.

At least the Baha'i God tries to take a more positive attitude. So, I have to ask... are you sure the angry, vengeance seeking God of the Bible is the same as your peace-loving God?

God gives us enough information that we could implement, but a lot of the time we fail because sin entered the world and corrupts our nature. We would be able to do better with his guidance if we weren't so screwed up by Satan's master plan.

You learn through life and by picking up and starting again. God gives you infinite chances. Peter denied Christ 3 times and he even witnessed firsthand the miracles! How much more will we be forgiven?! As long as you believe and die a believer then you will want heaven.

God was angry when his people turned their backs on him and he often times sent invading nation's to conquer Israel and set them right. It was discipline in it's harshest form, and remember, Israel had completely turned from God to sexual immorality, paganism and idol worship. Have you ever been kicked out? There's a similarity there... God is waiting there for when we choose to follow him, but until then he simply waits for us to rely on him.

loverofhumanity · May 5, 2017

Carlita said:
But the House of Justice isn't an outside party. Of course, "brothers and sisters" would correct each other. However, if someone from another family tried to all because they are connected as human beings, there's a problem.

That's what your religion teaches. In order to have peace is for god to work through the prophets and educators throughout the time. Since those methods "didn't work", The Bab and Bahaullah came and made things right for today. You're "gathering believers" to make unity while the followers are correcting you and you're saying that they have no right to interpret just the authority of your faith and the god you believe in. That causes disunity.

That doesn't address the person's and/or community's agreements with interpretation. Either you can watch t.v. and see all the c/ about The Church and coverups or you can actually go to a Parish and see The Church worship Christ in love and in spirit. It's up to you.

That's why, in my opinion, there shouldn't be prophet faiths. It completely contradicts this statement; and, I agree with it if it were possible. People want someone to follow.

There must be some law and order in religion as in society otherwise the social order completely breaks down.

At one time it was Christianity's now it's Islam.

Vinayaka · May 5, 2017

Here's a nice example of people working together without the aid of any particular religion or prophet, or self-appointed judges.

International Court of Justice - Wikipedia

loverofhumanity · May 5, 2017

BeerMe said:
There is a little bit of truth and wisdom in all of them and practices of living that can help people. But where all of the others outside of Jesus leave off, Jesus continues and leads the way. His will is perfect and should you choose to accept him, you will be in the center of his perfect will for your life. He sets you up for an abundant Life and excuse me if I'm preaching, just trying to get the truth out, he will guide you and set you on high. None of those other teachers will, or I am willing to bet, offer that. Christ offers strict stipulations for following him though, which most people dislike and even abandon the faith for.

To answer your question, yes, there is wisdom in all religions, be it human created or not, but only Christ fulfills and saves. There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.

A lot of the non Christian movements were worldly attempts at treating societal problems, meditation, et al. But while the Buddha is content on receiving alms, Christ sets his followers up for subsistence, but sadly few want this as their hearts are set on the things of this world. if they are faithful, Christ will give each of his followers an abundant Life.

All other teachers eventually fail, ineffective meditative methods (because they are looking within themselves) but Jesus calls on the power of God and God does have an agenda and he drops heavy when you call on his name, so be ready. Jesus will take a person infinitely farther than any of the rest.

The status erected in these teachers' names were done so because they were pioneers in ancient behavioral treatment methods which have concurrently lasted for centuries, but this is not to say that their methods are best. Jesus' methods are best and the only way to heaven.

They did not pre exist. Their only special power were the techniques handed down to them from generations before, they were just good teachers, that's all. They lived one life. Jesus was given wisdom above from his father and that wisdom is perfect and eternal.

I hope that answers your question.

I'm happy to meet you and I understand where you're coming from and I liked that you are open minded to see even a little truth in some of these Teachers as they all basically taught to do good.

For you Jesus reigns supreme and is the centre of you world and that is good because He is the Truth and Lord and Saviour of humanity. Jesus changed and transformed the world.

He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him. (Baha'u'llah)

This is a tribute to Jesus you might like to read.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 85-86

loverofhumanity · May 5, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Here's a nice example of people working together without the aid of any particular religion or prophet, or self-appointed judges.

International Court of Justice - Wikipedia

Yes definitely! these bodies are much needed to bring justice into our world.

loverofhumanity · May 5, 2017

CG Didymus said:
How many sects were there in Christianity before the Protestant Reformation? Wasn't there just the Orthodox Church and the more dominate, or dominating, Roman Universal Christian Church with a supposed infallible Pope leading them?

I think they were the main groups. I think it was then that Christ's teaching of love one another became secondary to power and politics.

It was the Emperor Theodosius I who in 379 AD decreed that Christianity was the official religion of the empire in 379. He declared all pagan sacrifice and divination punishable by death. The large numbers of people who followed the bishops were called the mainstream or orthodox Christians. Those who did not belong to that large group were called the heretics, and the church destroyed any form of heresy. With the killing of thousands of heretics and the burning of books, the original teachings of love and brotherhood given by Jesus were all but forgotten. (Alexander - Christianity renewed)

How are these Great Beings explained?

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