Just Addressing Yet Another Absurd, Dishonest Atheistic Argument

BilliardsBall · May 2, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
The slavery of the Bible allowed for owners to beat their slaves to death, as long as they didn't die too quickly.

Exodus 21:20-21:

The abolitionists protested OWNING PEOPLE AS PROPERTY along with mistreatment, kidnapping, etc.

Kidnapping of an Israelite or someone else's slave, maybe. In other situations, kidnapping is endorsed:

Numbers 31:17-18:

Deutoronomy 20:10-15:

In my experience, the strong correlation is between humanism and abolitionism.

Slavery & the Southern Churches

The conflict comes out of the idea that the indwelling Holy Spirit will cause the person who has accepted Christ to act in accordance with the will of God.

... or because you own his wife and children...

If the countless Christians who owned slaves or supported slavery didn't know Christ, why should we think that you do? Outwardly, there's no sign that suggests you're any more godly than they are, and both you and they have just as many quotes to support your positions.

Consider the possibility that this is because you're especially unpleasant to atheists and they respond in kind.

BTW: what's YOUR fruit? Most of what I've seen from you is snark and church-state violations, though I realize that a person's posts on a forum don't necessarily reflect everything about them. Still, the fruits you've shown here sure seem to have come from a nasty tree.

Your positions are typical. You post the "if he survives a day or two" without understanding that there were more laws condemning a slave owner in the OT than any other person/position.

What measures would you use for my fruit? Do you think the biblical fruit is people who love and adore you when you take unpopular stances?

BilliardsBall · May 2, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
The Episcopal Church... you mean the one that broke off from the Church of England after the American Revolution?

... as in this Church of England:

Why would we assume that a Christian in a tradition where even the Church itself owned slaves would "hate Jesus" just because he supported slavery as well?

That isn't what I asked you. I asked you whether you feel someone who hates Jesus and is Christian in name should still be called a "Christian", that is, a follower of the Christ.

BilliardsBall · May 2, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
You know that a flat circular plate is also round, right?

Hanging... i.e. gravity is pulling down on the Earth?

You just finished arguing for magic (and fictional) subterranean water passages, didn't you?

You'd have to show me the specific verse, but people who didn't know about the Americas or Australia would also think that the world was just one land mass.

What you see as "scientific accuracy points," I see as creative interpretation.

Edit: your claims are just as bad as that "science in the Quran" nonsense.

The Bible indicates that the land mass separated also.

The Bible says the Earth is circular or spherical (no Hebrew word for "elliptical") and suspended or hanging in a void. What is extraordinary here is comparing to other religious texts saying the Earth is on the backs of animals or upheld by Atlas and etc.

There are 613 OT laws. Over 200 of them have direct, and in many cases with respect to modern science, prescient benefit. We would logically conclude these accuracy measures go far beyond mere coincidence.

9-10ths_Penguin · May 2, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
That isn't what I asked you. I asked you whether you feel someone who hates Jesus and is Christian in name should still be called a "Christian", that is, a follower of the Christ.

Why not? Going by the Gospels, Jesus behaved hatefully at times.

Guy Threepwood · May 2, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
I'm aware of the solid dome model. You'll have to explain to me how besides the inept solid dome model, the Bible says the Earth is round, hanging in space, has pathways that connect the oceans, was formerly one land mass like Pangaea, etc. etc. - there are too many scientific accuracy points in the Bible to disbelieve the author wasn't super-intelligent.

Not to mention a beginning/ specific creation event for the universe which atheists passionately rejected for a long time. And that Earth was once one great ocean, then one great land mass, animal life began in the ocean and developed in distinct sudden stages- not slow gradual increments, it correctly compares the number of stars with grains of sand on Earth, and that enough water is contained in ' the springs of the deep' to cover all the land mass today.

Many of these things were still rejected in 'academia' until fairly recently, there will always be parts of the Bible science has not yet validated-

a.k.a atheism of the gaps!

9-10ths_Penguin · May 2, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
The Bible indicates that the land mass separated also.

The Bible says the Earth is circular or spherical (no Hebrew word for "elliptical") and suspended or hanging in a void.

I'm glad you acknowledge that the passage doesn't necessarily imply that the Earth is spherical.

What is extraordinary here is comparing to other religious texts saying the Earth is on the backs of animals or upheld by Atlas and etc.

... or on pillars?

Job 9:6:
he who shakes the earth out of its place so that its pillars tremble

Psalms 75:3:
When the earth and all its inhabitants dissolve in fear, I make its pillars secure.

1 Samuel 2:8:
For the foundations of the earth are the Lord’s;
on them he has set the world.

There are 613 OT laws. Over 200 of them have direct, and in many cases with respect to modern science, prescient benefit. We would logically conclude these accuracy measures go far beyond mere coincidence.

Tell us the one you think best demonstrates this. Be specific.

BilliardsBall · May 2, 2017

It Aint Necessarily So said:
I'm not following you. What is this about? What does hating Jesus have to do with any of this? How am I throwing rape in your face? That post made no mention of it.

I'm asking re: a semantic definition. I get called on NTS whenever I say "Christians do what Jesus says to do." Your definition is broader--anyone called a Christian, right? So if someone hates Jesus, can we truly say they are dictionary-definition Christian (follower of the Christ)? How do you "follow" someone you despise?

Unless we can find a line to draw on the definition, I would conclude that all lapsed Christians are still Christians, meaning most of the atheists on this forum are Christians!

9-10ths_Penguin · May 2, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
Your positions are typical. You post the "if he survives a day or two" without understanding that there were more laws condemning a slave owner in the OT than any other person/position.

And you maintain the position that OWNING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AS PROPERTY is morally acceptable if you treat them well enough while denying them their freedom.

What measures would you use for my fruit? Do you think the biblical fruit is people who love and adore you when you take unpopular stances?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

BilliardsBall · May 2, 2017

It Aint Necessarily So said:
Do super-intelligent authors say round when they mean oblate spheroid,or spherical? A coin is round.

Do they contradict themselves in their descriptions? Are you aware of the immovable earth with edges on pillars? Should we pretend that those words aren't there?

Is the earth hanging? From what?

Did you know?

1. The Bible gives just enough to trust Jesus and just little enough for mockers to leave, unconverted. I'm just trying to help.

2. Biblical Hebrew has a limited wordset. Round and spherical are there, elliptical or 11.5 degrees of axis are not there!

3. Ever since I was a child, I loved planetarium visits, where they draw imaginary lines to show the paths of the planets around the Sun, for from a viewer's perspective in space, the Earth is just . . . sitting there . . . in blackness.

4. I don't cherry pick to see the Earth is round and also not on pillars. I've investigated the pillars controversy in some depth. I've seen multiple plausible alternate explanations.

9-10ths_Penguin · May 2, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
I'm asking re: a semantic definition. I get called on NTS whenever I say "Christians do what Jesus says to do." Your definition is broader--anyone called a Christian, right? So if someone hates Jesus, can we truly say they are dictionary-definition Christian (follower of the Christ)? How do you "follow" someone you despise?

Someone who exhibits traits that you think go against Christ's message can still follow Christ based on their understanding.

Unless we can find a line to draw on the definition, I would conclude that all lapsed Christians are still Christians, meaning most of the atheists on this forum are Christians!

That's basically the position of the Catholic Church, so you certainly wouldn't be alone in taking it.

BilliardsBall · May 2, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Why not? Going by the Gospels, Jesus behaved hatefully at times.

You are saying Jesus showed in the gospels He hated Jesus?

"Christian" means "follower of the Christ". Jesus followed Himself...?

BilliardsBall · May 2, 2017

Guy Threepwood said:
Not to mention a beginning/ specific creation event for the universe which atheists passionately rejected for a long time. And that Earth was once one great ocean, then one great land mass, animal life began in the ocean and developed in distinct sudden stages- not slow gradual increments, it correctly compares the number of stars with grains of sand on Earth, and that enough water is contained in ' the springs of the deep' to cover all the land mass today.

Many of these things were still rejected in 'academia' until fairly recently, there will always be parts of the Bible science has not yet validated-

a.k.a atheism of the gaps!

I don't understand your post. Is it facetious or more straightforward?

Guy Threepwood · May 2, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
I don't understand your post. Is it facetious or more straightforward?

Just giving credit where it is due, many claims in the Bible were once written off as 'religious pseudoscience' before being validated beyond reasonable doubt.

They may have all been lucky guesses, but I think there are less improbable explanations

Nakosis · May 2, 2017

Guy Threepwood said:
Just giving credit where it is due, many claims in the Bible were once written off as 'religious pseudoscience' before being validated beyond reasonable doubt.

They may have all been lucky guesses, but I think there are less improbable explanations

Shouldn't assume what these folks did and didn't know scientifically. They theorized about the earth being round as far back as 6 century BC. About the time the OT was being created. These weren't simple shepherd folks creating a religious narrative. They were literate, educated and perhaps even scientific.

Hard to know exactly what influenced their thinking.

Guy Threepwood · May 2, 2017

Nakosis said:
Shouldn't assume what these folks did and didn't know scientifically. They theorized about the earth being round as far back as 6 century BC. About the time the OT was being created. These weren't simple shepherd folks creating a religious narrative. They were literate, educated and perhaps even scientific.

Hard to know exactly what influenced their thinking.

Well I take your point, us sailors had the best direct evidence back then!

Nakosis · May 2, 2017

Just stuff to argue about.... Some of you may know this already but here is claimed scientific evidence known by the Bible.
1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).

4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."

8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).

9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."

14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)
https://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml

It Aint Necessarily So · May 3, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
The Bible indicates that the land mass separated also.

The Bible says the Earth is circular or spherical (no Hebrew word for "elliptical") and suspended or hanging in a void. What is extraordinary here is comparing to other religious texts saying the Earth is on the backs of animals or upheld by Atlas and etc.

There are 613 OT laws. Over 200 of them have direct, and in many cases with respect to modern science, prescient benefit. We would logically conclude these accuracy measures go far beyond mere coincidence.

You did it again. You ignored all but one of the questions of the poster to whom you responded - three in this case. I just called you on that in another thread less than an hour ago.

I consider that bad faith disputation. I think you have a duty in a discussion to engage your interlocutor's arguments and answer his questions? If you don't, your just preaching, not discussing, and not too many unbelievers here are interested in sermons or talking to themselves.

Don't you expect more than that from others? Don't you expect them to read your words carefully, address the points you make individually and specifically, and answer the questions you ask?

9-10ths_Penguin · May 3, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
You are saying Jesus showed in the gospels He hated Jesus?

No, I'm saying that the Gospels describe Jesus acting hatefully toward other people at times, so someone who also behaves hatefully to others at times could be seen as following his example.

It Aint Necessarily So · May 3, 2017

Guy Threepwood said:
there will always be parts of the Bible science has not yet validated

Agreed.

It Aint Necessarily So · May 3, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
I'm asking re: a semantic definition. I get called on NTS whenever I say ...

Sorry, but I stop reading whenever I hit non-standard abbreviations. Feel free to use abbreviations like USSR, IRS, and LOL. NTS means nothing to me. Note to self? Needless to say? Whatever.

If you can't be bothered to type out a three word phrase, why should others be bothered to read beyond it?

It wasn't Natural Traffic System, was it?

Suddenly, I have Nothing To Say and feel the Need To Sleep.

Just Addressing Yet Another Absurd, Dishonest Atheistic Argument

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