The Universe Is Still Expanding At Faster Rate Than Thought. Not.

siti said:

Is that it? Is being "better than...wikipedia" your basis for assessing the value of an idea? indeed!

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Ha ha. No necessary. It's my reply to Altfish. I think he likes it plain and simple.

Just recently, I heard someone state a news article wasn't up to "wikipedia standards." I almost spit my coffee out when I heard it. It means that liberals will not believe it, goes against their beliefs or is critical of their Hollywood values no matter how true it is.

Shadow Wolf said:

No it doesn't. Being able to explain natural laws with a mathematical formula does not imply or suggest a creator, it just means we are indeed capable of uncovering objective facts.

Beauty does not exist outside the one beholding beauty, and evolution very well explains the complexity and diversity of life.

The point of referencing that movie was to further my position that you can do even a good number of seemingly impressive things that are nothing more than tricks based on basic mathematics and algebra. Add in some high level math, and you can leave people stupefied and mystified.

Click to expand...

Point taken on the math tricks, but I'm not just talking about beauty in the eye of the beholder.

And I'm not referring to just mathematics, but beauty and complexity in not just explaining natural laws, but experiencing them. From what you said, they point to intelligence and design and not just objective facts. Take a look at what C.S. Lewis said. And by intelligent design I don't mean as evidence for God, but something that has intelligence behind it such as a master's work of art. You just know it when you experience it. Another example is experiencing sunrise or sunset with a close friend or friends. It didn't just happen.

james bond said:

The full derivation of Hartnett's field equation that describes the motion of far-off objects is included in Appendix 2 of his book. Briefly, Hartnett begins with Moshe Carmeli's relativity model, which adds a dimension of the radial velocity of a far-off object to the Einsteinian dimensions of space and time. This radial velocity is related to the distance of the object by this equation:"

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Show me the math. All these words mean nothing without a model to test.

james bond said:

"Cosmological Relativity successfully accounts for two phenomena that cosmologists have often invoked so called dark matter to explain: the rotational curves of spiral galaxies and gravitational lensing. The result is that Cosmological Relativity essentially eliminates any need for so called dark matter."

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Again, worthless words without a working model. Link a model or an equation so we can play with it.

Make a list of verses that correspond to the Numbers of pi = 3.141592.... Starting with verse 3, then 31, then 314, then 3141....

Then the Number 31415 is more than the 31102 verses in the Bible...

Viewing Cyclically ~ The Remainder (Rd) is the verse.

31415/31102 ~ 313 Rd

5) 313 verse

314159/31102 ~ 3139 Rd

6) 3139 verse

3141592/31102 ~ 290 Rd

7) 290 verse

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1000) Mark 3:15 And to have power to Heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

~

1996) Ecclesiastics 4:5 The fool foldeth his hands together, and eateth his own flesh. 9

1997) Isaiah 37:12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed, as gozan, and haran, and rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Telassar? 49

1998) Romans 8:32 He that spared not His own SON, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 40

1999) Exodus 2:17 And the shepherds came and drove them away: but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock. 19

2000) Psalms 107:20 He sent His WORD, and Healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. 127

2001) Exodus 7:13 And He hardened pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as YHWH had said. 20

~~~

The Bible by the numbers of pi calculator GreatHim

Thief said:

it was....

like any ordinary explosion.....wrap the stuff in a container
THEN let it go ...bang!

gravity was the container
the explosion is still going on

Click to expand...

That is just not true though. Gravity is not what holds the universe together (resists expansion). I don't think anyone really knows for sure, but the best guess is that dark matter is what keeps the universe from coming unglued, if you will.

james bond said:

Ha ha. No

necessary.

Click to expand...

And yet you unabashedly quote verbatim from a pseudo-scientific source with references no later than 9 or 10 years out of date regarding a long-since debunked so-called "creation science" reinterpretation of cosmology (and I do mean all of it because if what you posted were even a little bit true, then everything we think we know about the universe - including everything that has been discovered in the last 20 years - and that is a hell of a lot - is either completely wrong or grossly misinterpreted) from that well-known font of scientific veracity creation wiki! And this source is more reliable than wikipedia only because it does not support liberal political ideas??? I think that deserves an extra or two .

leibowde84 said:

That is just not true though. Gravity is not what holds the universe together (resists expansion). I don't think anyone really knows for sure, but the best guess is that dark matter is what keeps the universe from coming unglued, if you will.

Click to expand...

and I will not
I prefer my rendition

Thief said:

and I will not
I prefer my rendition

Click to expand...

Even though it is patently false?

leibowde84 said:

Even though it is patently false?

Click to expand...

I don't believe so

Ebed said:

Make a list of verses that correspond to the Numbers of pi = 3.141592.... Starting with verse 3, then 31, then 314, then 3141....

Then the Number 31415 is more than the 31102 verses in the Bible...

Viewing Cyclically ~ The Remainder (Rd) is the verse.

31415/31102 ~ 313 Rd

5) 313 verse

314159/31102 ~ 3139 Rd

6) 3139 verse

3141592/31102 ~ 290 Rd

7) 290 verse

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1000) Mark 3:15 And to have power to Heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

~

1996) Ecclesiastics 4:5 The fool foldeth his hands together, and eateth his own flesh. 9

1997) Isaiah 37:12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed, as gozan, and haran, and rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Telassar? 49

1998) Romans 8:32 He that spared not His own SON, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 40

1999) Exodus 2:17 And the shepherds came and drove them away: but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock. 19

2000) Psalms 107:20 He sent His WORD, and Healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. 127

2001) Exodus 7:13 And He hardened pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as YHWH had said. 20

~~~

The Bible by the numbers of pi calculator GreatHim

Click to expand...

10005) Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the Householder came and said unto Him, Sir, didst not Thou sow Good Seed in Thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 40

10006) Isaiah 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent`s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. 43

10007) Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to YESHUA, saying unto Him, Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat The Passover? 43

10008) Zechariah 9:13 When I have bent Judah for Me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 21

10009) Nehemiah 7:4 Now the city was large and Great: but the people were few therein, and the houses were not builded. 11

10010) Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and Marvellous are Thy Works, Adonai God Almighty; Just and True are Thy Ways, Thou King of saints. 18

10011) 1 Thessalonians 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with Great desire. 19

leibowde84 said:

That is just not true though. Gravity is not what holds the universe together (resists expansion). I don't think anyone really knows for sure, but the best guess is that dark matter is what keeps the universe from coming unglued, if you will.

Click to expand...

a best guess?......of what nobody knows for sure?.....as rebuttal?

i still prefer a good guess
the universe is gaining speed with it's expansion....because....
the formation of gravity at the 'point of singularity' was not sufficient to hold the universe in one 'point'

'bang'

much like a pipe bomb

difference being.....there is nothing to slow the acceleration of the substance

the universe will disperse into the void

Ebed said:

10005) Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the Householder came and said unto Him, Sir, didst not Thou sow Good Seed in Thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 40

10006) Isaiah 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent`s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. 43

10007) Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to YESHUA, saying unto Him, Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat The Passover? 43

10008) Zechariah 9:13 When I have bent Judah for Me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 21

10009) Nehemiah 7:4 Now the city was large and Great: but the people were few therein, and the houses were not builded. 11

10010) Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and Marvellous are Thy Works, Adonai God Almighty; Just and True are Thy Ways, Thou King of saints. 18

10011) 1 Thessalonians 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with Great desire. 19

Click to expand...

8770) Deuteronomy 9:27 Remember Thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:

8771) Ezekiel 14:21 For thus saith Adonai YHWH; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Yerushalayim, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

8772) Ezekiel 20:24 Because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, and had polluted My Sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

8773) Micah 1:9 For her wound is incurable; for it is come unto Judah; he is come unto the gate of My people, even to Yerushalayim.

+20

8793) Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses, saith YHWH, that I am God.

8794) 2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto He called you by our Gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Adonai Yeshua Mashiach.

8795) Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from YHWH.

8796) Job 3:7 Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.

8797) Numbers 31:52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to YHWH, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.

8798) Psalms 119:170 Let my supplication come before Thee: deliver me according to Thy Word.

8799) Deuteronomy 9:27 Remember Thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:

Thief said:

a best guess?......of what nobody knows for sure?.....as rebuttal?

i still prefer a good guess
the universe is gaining speed with it's expansion....because....
the formation of gravity at the 'point of singularity' was not sufficient to hold the universe in one 'point'

'bang'

much like a pipe bomb

difference being.....there is nothing to slow the acceleration of the substance

the universe will disperse into the void

Click to expand...

The problem, of course, is that the singularity wasn't a point. Gravity is a long range force and would naturally slow the expansion at any distance. So there is something else going on here. As we understand it now (and there is controversy), dark matter is equivalent to Einstein's cosmological constant, which is essentially an energy density of empty space. More specifically, it's density does not go down on expansion (like the density of matter or of radiant energy does).

Polymath257 said:

The problem, of course, is that the singularity wasn't a point. Gravity is a long range force and would naturally slow the expansion at any distance. So there is something else going on here. As we understand it now (and there is controversy), dark matter is equivalent to Einstein's cosmological constant, which is essentially an energy density of empty space. More specifically, it's density does not go down on expansion (like the density of matter or of radiant energy does).

Click to expand...

it's not a primordial singularity without that ....'point'

jonathan180iq said:

Show me the math. All these words mean nothing without a model to test.


Again, worthless words without a working model. Link a model or an equation so we can play with it.

Click to expand...

As an aside, I'm going to go on a tangent first by saying, I will be starting another thread because you said that we are not going to Mars because of mass extinction if we stay on Earth. Be sure to look for it. I'm not sure where you've been the last few decades.

++++++++

Cosmological relativity is an extension of the principles of Einstein's Special and General Relativity to cosmological scales. However, its starting point is the expansion of the Universe and not the propagation of light.

Cosmic Time
Cosmic time is the time that the universe would need to expand from a zero size point for a given red shift. In the Big Bang cosmology it would be the time since the Big Bang. In any cosmology that starts with the universe as larger than a point, the universe would actually be younger than cosmic time.

• t = Cosmic time.
• z= Red Shift.
• τ = Observed Cosmic time = 13.56 Gyr.

According to Cosmological Relativity τ is constant for all space and time such that at any place in the Universe and at any time in its history an observer would measure the same Current cosmic time. Also like Einsteinian Relativity the laws of nature are the same for all space and time. The result is that there is no absolute cosmic time; instead it is relative to the time and place of the observer just like velocity in Special relativity. Also like velocity in Special relativity cosmic time does not simply add from one observer to another. Instead cosmic time is added by the following formula:

• t = Cosmic time.
• τ = Observed Cosmic time = 13.56 Gyr.

The key to Cosmological Relativity is that there is no absolute cosmic time, although any observer at any point in space and at any time will see τ = 13.56 Gyr.

5D cosmology
Cosmological relativity’s line element for an expanding Universe in negligible gravity is:


ds2 = τ2dν2 - ( dx2 + dy2 + dz2 )

• τ = H0-1 = Observed Cosmic time = 13.56 Gyr.
  • H0 = Hubble’s constant.
• ν = Is the space velocity at a given point in space.
• x,y,z = Normal 3d spatial dimensions.

This is similar to the Special relativity line element.


ds2 = c2dt2 - ( dx2 + dy2 + dz2 )

• t = time.
• c = the speed of light.
• x,y,z = Normal 3d spatial dimensions.

When time is added to Cosmological relativity’s line element we get:


ds2 = τ2dν2 - ( dx2 + dy2 + dz2 ) + c2dt2

• τ = H0-1 = Observed Cosmic time = 13.56 Gyr.
  • H0 = Hubble’s constant.
• ν = Is the space velocity at a given point in space.
• t = time.
• c = the speed of light.
• x,y,z = Normal 3d spatial dimensions.

The result is a theory of 5 dimensions.

• 1 of time.
• 1 of spatial expansion velocity.
• 3 normal spatial dimensions.

Special Relativity
Cosmological Special Relativity has much in common with Einstein’s Special relativity. Both theories deal with the special case of no gravity forming the basis for the more general concept. The main difference is that cosmic time (t) replaces velocity (v) as the critical quantity and observed cosmic time (τ= 13.56 Gyr) replaces the velocity of light (c) as the constant. Both theories have essentially the same formulae, but Cosmological Special Relativity substitutes ”t” for “v” and “τ” for “c”.

In Cosmological Special Relativity τ = H0-1 = 13.56 Gyr, where H0 = Hubble’s constant.

Thus both theories have similar transformations between reference frames.

• Special relativity.

• Cosmological Special Relativity

Thus both theories have similar formulae for relative mass. (m)

• Special relativity.

• Cosmological Special Relativity

Similar formulae for relative length. (L)

• Special relativity.

• Cosmological Special Relativity.

It is in the area of time (t) and velocity (v) that the two theories are the most different, since they basically switch places. However, in Cosmological Special Relativity, the velocity referred to is the expansion of the universe and not the independent motion of the object.

• Special relativity.

• Cosmological Special Relativity.

In Cosmological Special Relativity we get an added relationship for the acceleration (a) of the expansion of the universe.



Cosmological Special Relativity also has relativistic formulae for the universes’ density (ρ) and temperature (T).





Even though both the universe's density (ρ) and its temperature (T) are shown to be larger in the past, it seems likely that these are purely relativistic affects and that at those times the measured values would be what they are today.

Cosmological Special Relativity and Special relativity are not exclusive but work together, each being most significant under the right circumstances. Special relativity as v approaches c and Cosmological Special Relativity as t approaches τ.

General Relativity
Cosmological General Relativity, like Einstein’s General relativity, deals with the general case where gravity is present.

4D
In its 4D form of space-velocity, Cosmological General Relativity gives only the state of the universe in an instant of time.

While in Cosmological Special Relativity τ = H0-1, when gravity is considered as it is in Cosmological General Relativity, τ = h-1, and its relationship H0 becomes:

• Ωm =ρm/ρc = Cosmological General Relativity’s ratio of the mass density of the universe and the mass density that would result in a constant expansion rate.
• ρc = 3h2/8πG = 3/8πGτ2 = Cosmological General Relativity’s mass density at which a constant expansion rate occurs.
• ρm = measured mass density of the universe.
• z = ν /c = redshift.
• h = τ-1 = 72.17 km / s Mpc
• τ = Observed Cosmic time = 13.58 Gyr.
• G = Gravitational Constant

According to Cosmological General Relativity, the presence of gravity resulting from matter and energy reduces the vacuum pressure that tends to accelerate the expansion of the universe. This vacuum pressure (p) is denoted by:



As a result, the value of Ωm affects the expansion of the universe:

Ωm > 1

• This results in a decelerating expansion.

Ωm = 1

• This results in a constant expansion.

Ωm < 1

• This results in an accelerating expansion.
• Ωm = 0.245

When this is applied to the unbounded universe of the Big bang, the result is that for the first 5.08 Gyr after the Big bang there would be a decelerating expansion. At this point the expansion becomes constant for a brief time and then starts to accelerate as it is today.

Next we have ΩT which denotes the curvature of space on cosmic scales. The difference between ΩT and Ωm is ΩΛ. Such that:

ΩT = Ωm + ΩΛ

Now ΩΛ = (H0 / h)2 = 0.764

The result is: ΩT = Ωm + ΩΛ = 0.245 + 0.764 = 1.009 ≈ 1

This shows that the universe is flat ( Euclidean ) on a large scale

5D
When the time dimension is added to Cosmological General Relativity, the result is a 5D theory that reproduces all of the results of General Relativity with additional effects that solve a number of problems in cosmology. It results in a 5D space – time – velocity manifold that is an extension of General Relativity for cosmology.

Cosmological relativity - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

++++++++

Cosmological Relativity: A New Theory of Cosmology Cosmological Relativity: A New Theory ofCosmology1

Cosmological special relativity Cosmological special relativity

Aspects of Cosmological Relativity Aspects of Cosmological Relativity

Value of the Cosmological Constant in the Cosmological Relativity Theory Value of the Cosmological Constant in the Cosmological Relativity Theory

On the Anomalous Acceleration of Pioneer Spacecrafts On the Anomalous Acceleration of Pioneer Spacecrafts

Five-dimensional cosmological theory of unified space, time and velocity Five-dimensional cosmological theory of unified space, time and velocity - ScienceDirect

Here's the kicker about Cosmological Relativity for this thread and why it's not.

Accelerating expansion
While the discovery of the acceleration of the expansion of the universe was a surprise to most scientists, it was actually predicted by Cosmological General Relativity. This means that Cosmological General Relativity has made a successful prediction which is important to any scientific theory. The success of this prediction should have brought attention to Cosmological Relativity, but instead current theory was simply patched with a mysterious unobserved substance called dark energy.

So this Cosmological Relativity is what I wanted to run by quantum physicists whom I just met, but quantum mechanics is out of my field. I'm trying to understand the 4th dimension and 5th dimension for now and will start a thread on that.

Obviously, it's not a widely accepted theory but it explains the universe better than dark energy and dark matter and other dimensions. And weren't the superstring theories discarded or are they still viable in atheist science circles. String theory has been abandoned, I think.

Ebed said:

The Word 'Sum' occurs 21 times in 21 verses

The 16257th vs. Psalms 139:17 How precious also are Thy Thoughts unto me, O God! how Great is the SUM of them!

Click to expand...

This is only in some English translations. In the Hebrew, different words are used in the verses on the list.

james bond said:

Here's the kicker about Cosmological Relativity for this thread and why it's not.

Accelerating expansion
While the discovery of the acceleration of the expansion of the universe was a surprise to most scientists, it was actually predicted by Cosmological General Relativity. This means that Cosmological General Relativity has made a successful prediction which is important to any scientific theory. The success of this prediction should have brought attention to Cosmological Relativity, but instead current theory was simply patched with a mysterious unobserved substance called dark energy.

So this Cosmological Relativity is what I wanted to run by quantum physicists whom I just met, but quantum mechanics is out of my field. I'm trying to understand the 4th dimension and 5th dimension for now and will start a thread on that.

Obviously, it's not a widely accepted theory but it explains the universe better than dark energy and dark matter and other dimensions. And weren't the superstring theories discarded or are they still viable in atheist science circles. String theory has been abandoned, I think.

Click to expand...

would you like a conversation?

Hammerheart said:

It is more likely that the universe is rotating than expanding. The only evidence suggesting that the universe is expanding is the observation of galaxies on the other side of the central point moving in the opposite direction of the ones on our side. This is equally indicative of rotation.

Click to expand...

Galaxies, especially spiral galaxies have identifiable central points. Star systems, like our Solar System, have central points.

...but the universe has no single central point.

Thief said:

I don't believe so

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Nevertheless, gravity is not what keeps the universe from expanding. So, you are willing to hold on to your "belief", even though it is known to be wrong? Isn't that the definition of stubbornness?