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God is a Duality not a Trinity

L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
In Luke 1:35 the angel told Mary that the Holy Ghost would come upon her and she would be overshadowed by the power of the Highest. So if you say the Holy Ghost is a separate "person" in a trinity should you also say the power of the Highest is also a separate "person"? Isn't this verse saying that the Holy Ghost is the same as the power of the Highest? God IS a spirit and God IS holy so God is the Holy Spirit. His spirit or power is not a separate "person". Jesus of course was a separate person and that makes two not three.The Bible also says that a man has a spirit but you certainly do not call that a separate "person".
 
hispanicmormon

hispanicmormon

Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
In Luke 1:35 the angel told Mary that the Holy Ghost would come upon her and she would be overshadowed by the power of the Highest. So if you say the Holy Ghost is a separate "person" in a trinity should you also say the power of the Highest is also a separate "person"? Isn't this verse saying that the Holy Ghost is the same as the power of the Highest? God IS a spirit and God IS holy so God is the Holy Spirit. His spirit or power is not a separate "person". Jesus of course was a separate person and that makes two not three.The Bible also says that a man has a spirit but you certainly do not call that a separate "person".
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All it's trying to say is that Mary conceiving Jesus was an act of the Holy Ghost i.e. it didn't require sex and thus Mary was still a virgin after the affair. But Jesus is the Son of the Father, not of the Holy Ghost, and when the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary it was with God the Father's sperm not the Holy Ghost's. The Holy Ghost merely transported the Father's sperm from the Father to Mary's womb.
 
hispanicmormon

hispanicmormon

Member
Repox said:
Saying it does not make is so. According to historical records, Jesus movement leaders made up son of God stories. To date, believers have not questioned the logic of Jesus having a beginning.

Jesus was God, not the son of God.

It is clear, the historical record has been ignored. Here it is again.

What if you don't believe the gospels are the word of God? Historical evidence is clear. The gospels were written by men who were not eyewitnesses to Jesus, who weren't not even Jewish, who didn't live in or had visited places where Jesus gave testimony, and who copied each other to complete their gospels. Historical evidence shows the four gospel authors invented narratives, or Jesus stories. Jesus sayings are found in prior gospels, but not Jesus stories.

Again, here is the evidence. Based on The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack., you discover son of God and crucifixion stories didn't emerge until 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. Mark does a brilliant job of extracting the missing gospel Q from the four gospels and extracting a time line for the “Jesus movement.” For those lacking understanding or ability, Mack’s analysis is indiscernible. Prior to Jesus movement leaders circulating those stories, Jesus was regarded as a wise man or sage. Then, we have The Gospel of Thomas. About 40% of verses from Thomas are in the four NT gospels. What remains are physical fragments. Here are some of them: The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Peter, and The Gospel of Judas.

Then, there were other gospels, which have been lost. History of the Catholic Church shows church leaders destroyed those other gospels in order to make the four they selected to the “only” gospels in existence.
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Please tell more about son of God and crucifixion stories emerging 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. What were the stories before that?
 
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
When Jesus was conceived, no one had to carry sperm. Jesus was conceived by the power of God. There was no "person" called Holy Ghost". That is why God is a duality and not a trinty. There is the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost is just referring to God's spirit or power. Just like a man might have the power to build a house but that power is not a separate person. Kind of like me, myself and I are not three people. There is the Father and the Fathers spirit and the Father's power but they are not different beings.
 
Repox

Repox

Truth Seeker
hispanicmormon said:
Please tell more about son of God and crucifixion stories emerging 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. What were the stories before that?
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Before those stories, according to Mack's historical analysis, there were just Jesus sayings. Evidently, the gospel authors added Jesus stories. The Gospel of Thomas is a good example of prior gospels which made no mention of the narrative stories. Prior gospels regarded Jesus as a sage or wise man, not the son of God. Also, in those prior gospels Jesus talks about the Kingdom of Heaven, which would be what God (Jesus) would talk about.
 
hispanicmormon

hispanicmormon

Member
Repox said:
Before those stories, according to Mack's historical analysis, there were just Jesus sayings. Evidently, the gospel authors added Jesus stories. The Gospel of Thomas is a good example of prior gospels which made no mention of the narrative stories. Prior gospels regarded Jesus as a sage or wise man, not the son of God. Also, in those prior gospels Jesus talks about the Kingdom of Heaven, which would be what God (Jesus) would talk about.
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Interesting, but I'll stick to my beliefs on this one because I happen to know the Jews of the time were looking for a human sacrifice to fulfill the law of Moses and some saw this foretold-of Messiah who was supposed to be the king of Israel as the perfect "Lamb of God" (Jews sacrificed lambs in atonement for sins) who was the son of a god like it had been proclaimed in pagan world religions of the time. The son of the one true and living God who really exists (he calls himself "I Am"). A king of not only Israel, but of heaven. Destined to inherit everything the Father has.
 
hispanicmormon

hispanicmormon

Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
When Jesus was conceived, no one had to carry sperm. Jesus was conceived by the power of God. There was no "person" called Holy Ghost". That is why God is a duality and not a trinty. There is the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost is just referring to God's spirit or power. Just like a man might have the power to build a house but that power is not a separate person. Kind of like me, myself and I are not three people. There is the Father and the Fathers spirit and the Father's power but they are not different beings.
Click to expand...

I think you're wrong. The Holy Ghost is a person just as much as the Father and the Son are persons. But, unlike the Father and the Son, he is only a spirit and does not have a body of flesh and bones. He looks like the preexistent Jesus (Jehovah). In the beginning of Genesis 1, Ruach Elohim in Hebrew (Spirit of God in English) hovers over the waters which would one day be below and above the sky close to heaven but encompassing what is over the whole Earth in Jewish cosmology. How could the Father, a personage of flesh and bones, be in so many places at once? Only a spirit can do that. Just like the New Testament says that our bodies are the Temple of God, the Holy Ghost dwells inside all of us even without tarrying with us. This is possibly only because the Holy Ghost is a pure spirit, in one place at one time, but simultaneously being everywhere and permeating all existence.

The reason why there is a trinity with 1 spirit and 2 bodies of flesh and bones is because in order for the Father to truly be a "father" he had to have a literal son -- also a God.
 
Repox

Repox

Truth Seeker
It is interesting, you don't find the Trinity in the Old Testament. It came about in the fourth century when church leaders decided Jesus was the son of God and the Holy Spirit was their authority for making church proclamations. Since then, every believer has found it convenient to declare this or that in the name of, you guessed it, the Holy Spirit. The HS has become a religious license certifying any number of beliefs and church practices. In some religious, you go to hell for insulting or misusing the Holy Spirit. Be careful of what you post!
 
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I have never seen anything that says the Father has a flesh and blood body. The Father is a spirit and because He is holy He is the Holy Spirit.
 
syo

syo

Well-Known Member
Repox said:
Saying it does not make is so. According to historical records, Jesus movement leaders made up son of God stories. To date, believers have not questioned the logic of Jesus having a beginning.

Jesus was God, not the son of God.

It is clear, the historical record has been ignored. Here it is again.

What if you don't believe the gospels are the word of God? Historical evidence is clear. The gospels were written by men who were not eyewitnesses to Jesus, who weren't not even Jewish, who didn't live in or had visited places where Jesus gave testimony, and who copied each other to complete their gospels. Historical evidence shows the four gospel authors invented narratives, or Jesus stories. Jesus sayings are found in prior gospels, but not Jesus stories.

Again, here is the evidence. Based on The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack., you discover son of God and crucifixion stories didn't emerge until 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. Mark does a brilliant job of extracting the missing gospel Q from the four gospels and extracting a time line for the “Jesus movement.” For those lacking understanding or ability, Mack’s analysis is indiscernible. Prior to Jesus movement leaders circulating those stories, Jesus was regarded as a wise man or sage. Then, we have The Gospel of Thomas. About 40% of verses from Thomas are in the four NT gospels. What remains are physical fragments. Here are some of them: The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Peter, and The Gospel of Judas.

Then, there were other gospels, which have been lost. History of the Catholic Church shows church leaders destroyed those other gospels in order to make the four they selected to the “only” gospels in existence.
Click to expand...
I see. but why would they do that? if this is the truth, why hide it and make up stories?
 
syo

syo

Well-Known Member
Repox said:
Not in the traditional sense. The two Gods are in one sphere or in one body. I don't think the idea fits into any religion or tradition. It is not in the OT, so I don't have much Bible evidence. There is an interesting idea in science in which everything in nature can be conceived as a duality. It begins with species: two wings, two legs, two eyes and then in the atomic world: matter and anti-matter, protons and neutrons, etc. You can come up with a long list of dualities everywhere In the universe and science.
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what do you think of the wiccan God and Goddess?
 
meghanwaterlillies

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
allfoak said:
If a man and a woman get married and they have a child, are they a duality or a trinity?
If God the Father has a Son then somewhere in this picture there must be a Mother.
If there are three then i can hardly call them a duality now can i?
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I kinda disagree here too to many then play up duality or tirades too.
if they say that then they flip them if they are duality then the spouse will hate his wife or visa versa.
Or the child..
The programming it's those questions.
And it doesn't have much to do with love and God already knows because he can see it..
Simply made people frustrated. Yes.
 
Repox

Repox

Truth Seeker
syo said:
I see. but why would they do that? if this is the truth, why hide it and make up stories?
Click to expand...
syo said:
I see. but why would they do that? if this is the truth, why hide it and make up stories?
Click to expand...
If you read the historical record, which is difficult to decipher, but within reach, you find prior gospels conflict with later gospels.
 
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Repox

Repox

Truth Seeker
syo said:
I see. but why would they do that? if this is the truth, why hide it and make up stories?
Click to expand...
syo said:
I see. but why would they do that? if this is the truth, why hide it and make up stories?
Click to expand...
If you read the historical record, which, is difficult to decipher, but within reach, you find prior gospels conflict with later gospels. Why is that? You can theorize, but no matter, you must propose a theory based on what the records indicate. The gospel record clearly show Jesus movement people changing their minds about Jesus. I have listed references, and I could list many more, but no matter, most people don't do research. It is not my responsibility to do other peoples research. In other words, do we accept the word of a Creek NT author who had never visited the "holy land," who was not Jewish, who may have been Anti-Semitic, who had an agenda to establish a new religion based on new religious symbols, and who had never even seen Jesus? Those are questions which must be answered. The alternative is, of course, you believe the NT authors were holy, or without error, and spoke ever single syllable from God's holy mouth. What is the real truth?

I admit to having revelations from dreams and visions, but I am also a scholarly. I have published a scholarly book based on empirical data, it is found in most university libraries of the Western World. Although retired, I have not lost my scholarly ability. I have spent considerable time reading and analyzing books and historical documents related to Jesus. The evidence is clear, NT authors made up Jesus stories.
 
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hispanicmormon

hispanicmormon

Member
I'm curious to know how these people who allegedly added the Holy Ghost into the doctrinal mix as some sort of personage hundreds of years after Jesus died viewed using some sort of "great spirit" for making doctrinal proclamations before Christianity. Is this a pagan practice?
 
Repox

Repox

Truth Seeker
hispanicmormon said:
I'm curious to know how these people who allegedly added the Holy Ghost into the doctrinal mix as some sort of personage hundreds of years after Jesus died viewed using some sort of "great spirit" for making doctrinal proclamations before Christianity. Is this a pagan practice?
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It appears pagan practices were adopted by Christianity. A lot of those practices are found in the Catholic Church: deifying humans as saints, worshiping the woman Mary as a deity, the seven sacraments, Jesus as the savior of humankind, and, of course, the Trinity. Paganism declined when Christianity adopted its practices.
 
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