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Why do Christians Believe Jesus is the Messiah?

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
As I pointed out before in the gospels to 'Fulfill' means to imitate.

To fulfill does no mean to imitate.

Jesus imitates many of the things that happen to Israel. Like Israel he is called out of Egypt.
Israel was not called out of Egypt. God went to Egypt and brought them our with His strong hand(Ex 32:11, Deut 5:15).

Like Israel he rides on a colt.

When did Israel ride int Jerusalem riding on colt?

He makes these demonstrations just like Jeremiah who lies on his side for many days in imitation of the siege against Israel. So when you try to tell me that Jesus is fulfilling predictions you show ignorance of the prophetic life Jesus is leading. Your claim we can logically prove anything about Jesus is an empty one. Choose him on the merit of what he says, but you cannot even do that if you don't know what he is saying.

If you say Jesus did not fulfill any Messianic prophecies, you don' understand Messianic prophecies.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
I've been looking at Jewish stances on the requirements of the Messiah (here is what I read), and from what I've read, Jesus did not fulfill these requirements. So why do Christians claim that he is the Messiah? I am not coming from an offensive standpoint, I am genuinely curious.

SearchingForGod,
Tell me please which of the many Scriptures pointing to the Messiah, that Jesus did not fulfill!!!
The Hebrew Scriptures pointing to the Messiah, or Christ, are called Proteagelium Scriptures. Many Bible scholars say there are maybe hundreds that prophecy about the coming of Jesus, and the things that he would do. Remember, Jesus said that he must fulfill all the things written about him in the Scriptures, Matthew 5:17,18, Luke 24:25-27, 44. One of the things Jesus said just before he died was, it is finished, meaning that he had fulfilled all the Scriptures written about him, John 19:30. There are at least two dozen Protevangelium Scriptures that Jesus fulfilled.
Bible scholars and even mathematicians agree that it would be impossible for any imposter to accomplish even Ten of the requirements to be the Messiah, Christ.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
SearchingForGod,
Tell me please which of the many Scriptures pointing to the Messiah, that Jesus did not fulfill!!!

{snip}

One of the things Jesus said just before he died was, it is finished,
meaning that he had fulfilled all the Scriptures written about him
I've been told by many Christians that jesus is coming back a second time to fulfill the prophecies. Since you say that jesus already did them all, does that mean all those other Christians lied to me?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Jesus said, 'I will come again' (John 14:3) and Paul said, 'The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven' (1 Thess. 4:16,17).

The indications are that the return of Christ will coincide with the 'day of vengeance of our God' (See Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 4:19)

R.A.Torrey writes, 'The Second Coming of Christ is said to be mentioned 318 times in the 260 chapters of the New Testament and it 'occupies one in every twenty-five verses' from Matthew to Revelation.

I've not personally checked the validity of this statistic but I am aware of numerous references that encourage believers with future hope.
Titus 2:13, 'Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.'
1 John 2:28. 'And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, ye may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.'

It's easy to be blown about by the vain philosophy of man. Generations of saints can vouch for the trustworthiness of God's Word. It's a Rock worth standing on.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I will look them up if you will furnish the verses.
I am writing this in response to a post in this thread and want to retain an easy to find copy for later.


This post intends to show that the word translated 'Fulfill' in Matthew is intended to mean imitate through looking at each passage where Matthew uses the terms Fulfilled, Fulfillment or Fulfill and their source references.

The idea of fulfill in Matthew is like a wax seal where the image of one thing is pressed into another. So Matthew is suggesting that Jesus way is imprinted by the Torah and Judaism, and he does things that imitate the Bible stories that highlight it.

Matthew 1:22 (the virgin) is reference to Isaiah 7:14-16. Matthew implies two things. First he implies that just like the child in Isaiah, Jesus birth (and by extension his church) is a harbinger of peace. The second thing is that Matthew alludes to the Israel the virgin being with child. He's saying that Christianity is the legitimate child of Judaism and a pure interpretation of it. It doesn't matter that Isaiah does not use the word 'Virgin', because Isaiah never predicted any virgin births except the one that happened in Isaiah 7. Its not about predictions. It is about recreating and duplicating peace from Judaism into gentiles without them converting.

Matthew 2:6 (out of Bethlehem) -- this is a fictitious quotation (not a deception but an allusion to other texts) that is a play on the name Bethlehem which can mean "House of justice" Matthew is saying Jesus way is the just way. Anyone who looks at this and can find the actual quote that Matthew refers to...well they have some pretty amazing software, because it does not exist. It is not a deception, however. I think Matthew views quotes as conversational allusions. When it says anything, it expects you to be making connections and to know the same background materials. It is not the text of the quote that you should consider but the material to which it refers.

Matthew 2:15 (out of Egypt) -- imitates the story of Exodus. In particular Israel is called the Son of God and Matthew literally quotes one of the prophets on this topic. Matthew is saying that Jesus is like Israel, that his ministry is a translation of Judaism. The quote is “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." (Hoshea 11:1)

Matthew 2:18 (a voice is heard in Ramah) Refers to Jeremiah 31:15 "This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.” This predicts nothing, but it is a continual lamentation by Rachel for her children who keep dying. Rachel though she is dead has loved them and wept for them. You can compare Rachel's love with concepts like the Bosom of Abraham. Rachel is honored for loving all her descendants not just those standing in front of her. Leah goes unmentioned. Jeremiah continues "This is what the LORD says: “Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded,” Jeremiah 31:16 So Matthew is implying that Jesus ministry will bring solace to Rachel's children.

Matthew 2:23 (called a Nazarene) The term 'Nazarene' does not occur in the Prophets, however there is a similar term called a Nazarite; but a nazarite takes a vow of service and of abstinence from wine, funerals and some other things for a period of time and can be female or male. Jesus drinks wine. So the question is what is Matthew's point in saying the prophets indicate "He will be called a Nazarene?" We do not have the full texts of Jesus lecture in Nazareth's synogogue, but we know that he spoke about Isaiah 61 there once, and he may have also mentioned Isaiah 9 about the light appearing among the gentiles and is this the closest I can get to discovering Matthew's meaning in quoting a non-existent quotation. Matthew is saying that Jesus ministry represents that light appearing in Isaiah 9. It is OK if Matthew's quote cannot be found directly. The reader is expected to find the allusion and recall the material for themselves.

Matthew 3:3 (voice in the wilderness) alludes to Isaiah 40 and its theme. Isaiah 40 is about a voice in the wilderness, a clear allusion to Israel's journey from Egypt. To Matthew, John is that voice, and he is speaking in another wilderness. Matthew is taking all that is in that journey, and he is saying repentance from sin is that journey and baptism is crossing the red sea. It is the transubstantiation of the journey from Egypt.

Matthew 3:12 (the winnowing fork) Matthew here quotes a real quote, but again it is not a prediction. Jeremiah 15:7 describes Israel's captivity in Babylon as a punishment and a purification. Matthew says Jesus will baptize with fire, so he is using fire and the separation of wheat from chaff to describe Jesus ministry. Again Matthew reaches into a timeless prophecy and says Jesus ministry is like it, but the prophet makes no prediction. This time Matthew makes a direct quote, but it is like his other quotes an allusion to text.

Matthew 3:15-17 (John baptizes Jesus and a voice says "This is my son whom I love") First of all, John is the lesser prophet. Jesus is the greater. This is done to imitate Elijah and Elisha, to point out that a greater ministry can come from a lesser one. There is no prediction, yet Jesus says it is to fulfill all righteousness. There is another precedent for this, which is when Moses is taught by his father in law and also receives advice through him, and there are all of the stories in which the younger brother is superior to the older. It is a rejection of the teachings of Egypt and of Babylon, and Matthew borrows from this. He implies Christianity also rejects those same things as an authentic representation of Judaism.

Matthew 4:2 (tested for forty days) Moses spends forty days without food, and he brings the Torah. Jesus fasts for forty days. 'Forty' is not a coincidence here. It is imitation to make some kind of point. Moses stops the destruction of Israel. Jesus is led by spirit to also stop some kind of destruction, but rather than the LORD he converses with the personification of evil. He faces his own human half. It is his body, his potential as a ruler that is the danger to Israel this time. I think it is at this moment that he assents to his own death, again imitating Israel's acceptance of persecution and patience. In another similar passage, the moment Peter begins to object to Jesus death, Jesus says "Get behind me, Satan!" He can do this, because he has already fought his own inner resistance.

Matthew 4:15 (land of the shadow of death) I have already mentioned this in connection with Matthew 2:23 with the partly puzzling non-existent quote "He will be called a Nazarene." This quotes Isaiah 9:2, but Isaiah 9:2 is in past tense. He says "The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned." He does not say "Will see a great light" or "A light will dawn." So Jesus ministry imitates or reproduces something Jewish here, and that is Matthew's point in mentioning it at all.

Matthew 4:19 (fishing for people) Alludes to Jeremiah 16:15-16. It is not a prediction or a quote, but it is just as much of an allusion as the quotations and fulfillments. It is about how the Jews that fall away from their destiny will be brought back, one by one if necessary, whoever can be salvaged. Here Jesus is telling his disciples that they are going to be his fishermen, like those other fishermen in Jeremiah. This coincides with his teaching about caring for each and every sheep. He says a good shepherd will leave the flock penned to go find the lost individual. Again, this is a representation that being in Christ is like being in Judaism in this way: every individual matters no matter if they are off on their own.

Matthew 5:1-17 (beatitudes) -- Psalms such as 119 and 82 The beatitudes are basics, like a summary of the essence of Jesus teachings. He draws them from many places, but Psalms 82 and 119 would probably cover most of the beatitudes.

Matthew 26:31 (strike the shepherd to scatter the sheep) -- Zech 13:6-9 Says the LORD will turn his hand against the sheep to purify them by two thirds and then take the remaining third and purify them in a furnace into silver. Matthew is using this to explain that in similar fashion Jesus must leave the world that the church may be purified. I am not explaining it in full here but it has to do with 1Corinthian 15:24 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."

Matthew 27:46 (eloi eloi) -- Psalm 22 is a song about being Jewish. Jesus quotes it upon the cross.

Matthew 28:7 (resurrected) Just like Israel in Ezekiel 37, the valley of dry bones.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member


Your post is ways to long for me to wade through and respond to each comment. Besides nothing I say will change your mind,
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Your post is ways to long for me to wade through and respond to each comment. Besides nothing I say will change your mind,
Sorry but it would have been a waste of time to do that much work and not make it useful to myself later. Each passage is listed and its source if available.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Sorry but it would have been a waste of time to do that much work and not make it useful to myself later. Each passage is listed and its source if available.

I really appreciate your effort, but my typing is so bad it would take me a very long time to adequately answer your comments. I couldn't give it the attention it deserves.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I've been looking at Jewish stances on the requirements of the Messiah (here is what I read), and from what I've read, Jesus did not fulfill these requirements. So why do Christians claim that he is the Messiah? I am not coming from an offensive standpoint, I am genuinely curious.
If one is prophesied to do something, one must be the one prophesied before, during and after the thing is done.

Messiah has done what Messiah has done -and will certainly do what Messiah has not yet done.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
There is ONLY ONE TRUE God that deserves our worship and praise.
Then that God needs to be more compassionate and just than just being whatever petty humans want.

Like Israel he rides on a colt.
That poor, poor little baby horsey, forced to carry an entire nation on its back ... :p

If Joseph is not his real father, how can he be both in line of King David and the son of God? He can't be both. He has to be one or the other.
On the other hand, King David was quite the promiscuous guy, so I would guess a good majority of the people were children of David by that point, LOL. :)

Isn't God sort of a savior anyway if he saved them from Egypt?
They were probably still bitter about Fire Tornado God offering them an escape from lush Egypt only to die in the desert just shy of the actual objective... other people's lush villages....

Tell me please which of the many Scriptures pointing to the Messiah, that Jesus did not fulfill!!!
I don't even see why we NEED prophecies, since all it means is to be anointed, and plenty of people were called Messiahs prior to Jesus, even Cyrus, and he's PERSIAN.

Remember, Jesus said that he must fulfill all the things written about him in the Scriptures
Doesn't it bother you that he's specifically reading for qualifications like it's a grocery list?
 
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