How are these Great Beings explained?

CG Didymus said:

Elijah is not a manifestation. You need a prophecy of two Christs coming.

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So, if someone tell you, tomorrow, I will give you 10 dollars, and when tomorrow comes, he gives you 10 dollars, plus 10 dollars more, did he not fulfil his promise? God told us, He will give us Elijah again, and when the time passed, He gave more. God is generous! The Bab is also Promised in NT in the 2300 days prophecy, which is the End Time.

Now, this prophecy recorded in Islamic Sources, read it carefully, it might be an interest to you, to see, Spiritual Return, is a concept taught in All Religions:

"And our master, Imam Qaim (a.s.) would be standing, resting his back to the Kaaba. And he will say: O people, whoever wants to see Adam and Sheeth, should know that I am Adam and Sheeth. And whoever wants to see Nuh and his son, Saam, should know that I am that same Nuh and Saam. And whoever wants to see Ibrahim and Ismail, should know that I am that same Ibrahim and Ismail. And whoever wants to see Musa and Yusha, should know that I am that same Musa and Yusha. And whoever wants to see Isa and Shamoun, should know that I am that same Isa and Shamoun. And whoever wants to see Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) and Amirul Momineen, should know that I am that same Muhammad and Amirul Momineen. And whoever wants to see Hasan and Husain, should know that I am that same Hasan and Husain. And whoever wants to see the Imams from the progeny of Husain, should know that I am those same purified Imams. Accept my call and gather near me as I would inform you about all that has been said and all that has not been said.”

Shiavault - 33

Vinayaka said:

I think this is just false. I think nearly everyone on this planet has been exposed to ahimsa. I can't imagine any school anywhere where the teacher says to the class, "At recess I want you all to go outside and beat the pulp out of each other!"

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Yes but leaving people without any direction is the same because often they just revert to their base materialistic instincts. If you just leave a plant it may grow crooked but if you tend to it then it will grow straight.

Anyway there's not enough ahimsa nor is it widespread enough so there's work to be done. The tolerance Hindus have of all Faiths is something Muslims urgently need to learn. Clearly Muslim countries lag far behind in ahimsa.

In Yemen the other day another 25 Baha'is were arrested for showing kindness and basically ahimsa.

Ominous wave of Yemen arrests raises alarm

The thing is this anti human sentiment needs to be countered with a more powerful force of ahimsa worldwide. We should conquer hate with love and thoughts of war with more strong thoughts of peace. If we don't then the negative forces in the world become united and more stronger and will prevail.

You know the saying that evil exists because good men don't speak out or something to that effect, so remaining quiet is not really an option when negative ideologies are spreading. We must spread positive and peaceful ideologies to counter these kinds of assaults on human dignity.

CG Didymus said:

How about Judaism? Why don't they send missionaries out? But with Christianity, what was the message they were spreading? Did they teach acceptance of the people's previous religion, or did they teach them that their old beliefs were false and had to be stopped?

Other religions didn't teach non-violence... you know like the Golden Rule, turn your other cheek, you know that stuff?

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All religions teach non violence. But in their history they may have had to defend themselves against an oppressor or attacks. Like the Pandavas in the Mahabharata where Krishna did everything possible to try and obtain a peace pact but after attempts by the Kauravas at poisoning and murder and other heinous crimes a just war had to be fought to return the Kingdom to its rightful owners.

Krishna's Peace Mission (sub heading bottom of page)

Kurukshetra War - Wikipedia

Then with the Jews the Amalekites waged guerrilla warfare against them for generations attacking the weak, women, the aged and children and selling them into slavery not to mention their practices of child sacrifice, beastiality and incest. Then Muhammad's followers' persecution by the Quraysh for 13 years after which they fled to Abbysinia but were still pursued by their attackers.

Under such circumstances its fight or be exterminated completely.

These were all just wars. But all these Holy Books teach to do good, to be virtuous and Holy and not to murder or commit acts of violence.

If Hitler was not confronted then there would be no Jews and no Israel today. There are times in history that a just war keeps the peace and this is supported in all religions including the Baha'i Faith.

All religions support a just war against oppressors if you look at their history. Yet some who are not properly informed have used these instances to try and say religion is violent. The wars of the followers however were mostly unfounded. But the Manifestations had no ambition but justice.

All Holy Books teach peace, love, tolerance and compassion but the wars like the crusades and wars between Christian and Christian and Muslim and Muslim occurred because they chose to ignore and go against the laws of the Bible and Quran which say clearly not to murder.

So it's disobedience to religion which causes these wars not religion. If all religionists obeyed their own Holy Books we would have world peace by now and there would never have arisen terrorism because the main meaning of jihad is to conquer the self or ego.

Wars by Moses, Krishna and Muhammad were all just wars. Wars by their followers were not.

CG Didymus said:

Well, Christians believe their NT and say Jesus believed that Satan was real.

So is there invisible spirit beings roaming around? Whether you call them Jin or angels, it don't matter. Do they exist in the Baha'i world? If they do exist, do they always do good, or can they turn evil?

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Satan never existed. People were taught in that manner to instill the fear of God into them but this method is no longer needed as we can rationalize and reason now much better and can learn right from wrong without these symbols and through assessing the advantages and disadvantages. Our analytical minds had not developed to that point in the past but as you can see with the outburst in science, our minds have now developed analytical and assessment abilities that are able to understand the evil in wrong doing without fearing an imaginary Satan.

There are no invisible spirits or angels in the Baha'i Faith. We cannot be influenced by any such thing as evil spirits because they don't exist. But the Word of God can guide and inspire us in a good way if we choose to use it in our lives.

References (Tablets of Abdul-Bahá'í)

“As to the question of evil spirits, demons and monsters, any references made to them in the Holy Books have symbolic meaning. What is currently known among the public is but sheer superstition.”

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man”


Shoghi Effendi

In regard to your question concerning evil spirits and their influence upon souls, Shoghi Effendi wishes me to inform you that what is generally called evil spirit is a purely imaginary creation and has no reality whatever.

Vinayaka said:

You obviously by now know my answer to that one. I've seen it turn into a real fight once. A great uncle orally told a few people he wanted his body to be cremated, but the people who hadn't been told, or were obstinate about projecting their own beliefs wanted the corpse buried. After a shouting match, they agreed to bury his ashes.

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Its all too common sadly. Baha'is are required to write a will to avoid these kinds of problems.

Vinayaka said:

It was just a guess. Thanks.

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No problem. It is interesting to explore the differences.

CG Didymus said:

So no one understood the Bible until the Baha'i Faith gave its true interpretation? So, just by reading it, you can't get its true meaning?

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The laws yes but not the prophecies regarding the Last Day or End of Times.

2 Peter 1:20

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Daniel 12:9

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Revelation 5:2-4

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

So no person, not anyone but the Father knows the unsealing of the meaning of the prophecies. No one in heaven and earth except.........

Revelation 5:5

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

This could not be referring to Christ as Christ had no ancestors as He called Himself the Son of God and was born of the Holy Spirit.

However Baha'u'llah was descended from David through his father Jesse and also through two wives of Abraham, Sarah and Katurah.

The Book that unsealed the Books, the meanings of the seven religions' mystical prophecies, was the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah.

References

Shoghi Effendi (re: Book of Certitude)

Revealed on the eve of the declaration of His Mission, it proffered to mankind the "Choice Sealed Wine," whose seal is of "musk," and broke the "seals" of the "Book" referred to by Daniel, and disclosed the meaning of the "words" destined to remain "closed up" till the "time of the end." (God Passes By)

Baha'u'llah (re: David)

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David.”


As a Descedant of David, Baha'u'llah rightfully laid claim to His Throne and to be the only one in heaven or on earth with the God given authority to unseal the meanings of all Holy Books.

CG Didymus said:

Not that I've researched it thoroughly, I was under the impression that Christians were killed and tortured until Constantine, during a battle, saw a vision of a cross or something in the sky. He won the battle and made Christianity the State religion. Then, he got the bishops together to hash out what they really believe. Is that kind of what you think happened?

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That's right. When I said Christianity was promoted without violence, I meant from Christians.

CG Didymus said:

First, what is the Baha'i definition of the "Gospel"?

Second, he's coming back for his faithful... and he's coming back soon... or sooner or later. All the end times things that Christians put together make it sound like there will be false teachers, false Christ's, etc. Then, the end will come. You know all those things they believe, the Anti-Christ will try and unite the world. Jesus will come and "rapture" his true followers. The world will go through the tribulation, and then Jesus will come destroy evil, and all we be well or something to that effect.

Of course, that's their interpretation of obviously wrong. But, they believe it and the only reform they do is to get back to the "truth" of the Bible.

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You have answered your own question. The gospel is the truth of Jesus Christ. The way words are used in the Baha'i Faith is generally consistent with how others speaking that language would understand it. Similarly with history, we rely on historians for the most part. However as the Baha'i faith concerns religion, we do have particular views of history that would side with one view and not another. Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God does have access to knowledge that is beyond the reach and comprehension of ordinary men.

The argument that the Return of Christ is for the 'Christian faithful' is probably incorrect. Jesus although a Jew teaching Jews, really came for the Gentiles. He also came for the sinner and those who were struggling. His sternest criticism was for Jewish religious leaders.

There is an argument to be made that those 'dead in Christ' will be first to recognise Him, and those who are last will be first.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

Its important to bear in mind that along with the duty not to follow false teachers or antichrists is also a duty to recognise the Messiah and follow Him. Jesus gave His warning to His disciples on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24) so anyone who was claiming to be the Messiah afterwards had to be wrong. Consider the final Jewish revolt under Bar Kokhba who the Jews believed was their messiah and the disastrous consequences.

Bar Kokhba revolt - Wikipedia

The tribulation comes as a consequence of failing to recognise the Promised One.

The rapture is simply the true believers being lifted up into the heaven of God's Will and Knowledge.

CG Didymus said:

I don't get this tribal, city state, nation progression. When hasn't there been all three at the same time? Hasn't there always been great empires right from the start of recorded history? And another pertinent question... What about the religions of those empires? We know enough about to them to know that all or most of them were polytheistic. So who were the "manifestations" that taught them that?

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Actually I think we have progressed through various stages and types of social organizations.. So both a sociological and historical perspective can be useful here.

there are areas where tribal loyalties and related cultures are particularly strong... this also has to do with families.

The city states emerge in Greece and Rome such as Athens and Rome, Carthage.. Yes some had empires.

That nation states emerge as citizenship and attendant duties. One example is the concept of "Umma" but it extends to modern nation states.

Consider the Buddhist influence under Asoka in India... The influence of Constantine on Rome in recognizing Christianity... The influence of Islam on civilization.. Cordova... Baghdad... etc.

The influence of the teachings of the Buddha... Christianity and Islam are pretty pervasive in those periods.

I think the current era has a capacity to approach a model of a world civilization.

Did the Manifestations of God promote violence


This is primarily about Krishna but the stories about the other Manifestations being forced into war such as Moses, Muhammad all have similar scenarios.

In the Hindu epic the Mahabharata King Dhritarashtra wanted his son, or rather was swayed by his son Duryodhana because of love for him to agree to make him king over all the Kingdom which was the right of the Pandavas.

The Mahabharata is almost 6,000 pages and describes how the Kingdom of the Pandavas was unjustly seized from them and how Krishna did everything possible to try and achieve a peace but the king wanted his son to rule over all the land. After his son had lost the war, the king lamented having not listened to Krishna and seized peace and was most repentant and remorseful.

Here is an except of his own admission of guilt in not being just and causing the war.

King "Dhritarashtra said, ..I did not follow the counsels of friends...
In the midst of the assembly, Krishna told me what was for my good, saying, "A truce (tense) to hostilities, O king! Let thy son take the whole kingdom! Give but five villages to the Pandavas!" Fool that I was, for not following that advice, I am now obliged to repent so poignantly!
(Jalapradanika Parva section 1)

The Mahabharata of Vyasa - Full English Translation

Whether people believe the war was just a moral story or real, as a Baha'i I believe Krishna was a real Manifestation of God and only sought peace but eventually was forced to uphold justice.

Those who believe Hinduism promotes violence need to read the Mahabharata to understand the full context in which the Bhagavad -Gita was revealed. Nobody wanted war not Krishna nor Arjuna but constant aggression, attacks, attempted assassinations, poisonings by the Kauravas forced war upon them. Even when Krishna offered to allow them to have all the Kingdom and only grant the Pandavas 5 villages the answer was..

I will not surrender to the Pandavas even that much of land which may be covered by the sharp point of a needle.'

Even though the king pleaded with his son to give the Pandavas their rightful share and was against the war his son wanted to fight.

We read: (The King addressing his son)

I ask thee, O Duryodhana, O foremost of the Bharata race, desist from hostility. O chastiser of foes, under any circumstances, war is never applauded. Half the earth is quite enough for the maintenance of thyself and all thy followers. Give back unto the sons of Pandu, O chastiser of foes, their proper share. All the Kauravas deem just this to be consistent with justice, that thou shouldst make peace with the high-souled sons of Pandu. Reflect thus, O son, and thou wilt find that this thy army is for thy own death. Thou understandest not this from thy own folly. I myself do not desire war,

There are the Hitler's and Isis of this world that cannot be reasoned with and if not stopped would cause massive destruction.

Therefore Krishna told Arjuna to be detached from his personal aversion to war as it was his duty as a warrior to defend his people from evil. It was a just war.

Krishna acted with perfect justice and all accusations made against His Holy Person and the Gita are baseless.

Mercy and justice are two dichotomies yet both have their place. Only a perfect soul such as a Manifestation has the wisdom to know which situation to apply them and Krishna chose rightfully to administer justice after pleading for a peace pact and being refused whilst aggression continued.

Those who claim the Manifestations of God like Krishna, Moses and Muhammad promoted war and violence are bereft of the true facts so utter unseemly and baseless accusations against them which we defend. Neither they nor their Holy Books promoted murder. The followers of some religions, on the other hand, in disobedience to their Holy Books however, are guilty of many atrocities. That is clear as the sun.

loverofhumanity said:

All religions teach non violence. But in their history they may have had to defend themselves against an oppressor or attacks. Like the Pandavas in the Mahabharata where Krishna did everything possible to try and obtain a peace pact but after attempts by the Kauravas at poisoning and murder and other heinous crimes a just war had to be fought to return the Kingdom to its rightful owners.

Krishna's Peace Mission (sub heading bottom of page)

Kurukshetra War - Wikipedia

Then with the Jews the Amalekites waged guerrilla warfare against them for generations attacking the weak, women, the aged and children and selling them into slavery not to mention their practices of child sacrifice, beastiality and incest. Then Muhammad's followers' persecution by the Quraysh for 13 years after which they fled to Abbysinia but were still pursued by their attackers.

Under such circumstances its fight or be exterminated completely.

These were all just wars. But all these Holy Books teach to do good, to be virtuous and Holy and not to murder or commit acts of violence.

If Hitler was not confronted then there would be no Jews and no Israel today. There are times in history that a just war keeps the peace and this is supported in all religions including the Baha'i Faith.

All religions support a just war against oppressors if you look at their history. Yet some who are not properly informed have used these instances to try and say religion is violent. The wars of the followers however were mostly unfounded. But the Manifestations had no ambition but justice.

All Holy Books teach peace, love, tolerance and compassion but the wars like the crusades and wars between Christian and Christian and Muslim and Muslim occurred because they chose to ignore and go against the laws of the Bible and Quran which say clearly not to murder.

So it's disobedience to religion which causes these wars not religion. If all religionists obeyed their own Holy Books we would have world peace by now and there would never have arisen terrorism because the main meaning of jihad is to conquer the self or ego.

Wars by Moses, Krishna and Muhammad were all just wars. Wars by their followers were not.

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You misinterpreted my post. But since you want to talk about war. Do animals fight over food, territory and mating? If God didn't want the human animal to behave that way, why did he create us that way? And speaking of creating us. Why did he make us with an immune system? I don't know all that goes on at the microscopic level, but it sounds like war.

loverofhumanity said:

Satan never existed. People were taught in that manner to instill the fear of God into them but this method is no longer needed as we can rationalize and reason now much better and can learn right from wrong without these symbols and through assessing the advantages and disadvantages. Our analytical minds had not developed to that point in the past but as you can see with the outburst in science, our minds have now developed analytical and assessment abilities that are able to understand the evil in wrong doing without fearing an imaginary Satan.

There are no invisible spirits or angels in the Baha'i Faith. We cannot be influenced by any such thing as evil spirits because they don't exist. But the Word of God can guide and inspire us in a good way if we choose to use it in our lives.

References (Tablets of Abdul-Bahá'í)

“As to the question of evil spirits, demons and monsters, any references made to them in the Holy Books have symbolic meaning. What is currently known among the public is but sheer superstition.”

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man”


Shoghi Effendi

In regard to your question concerning evil spirits and their influence upon souls, Shoghi Effendi wishes me to inform you that what is generally called evil spirit is a purely imaginary creation and has no reality whatever.

Click to expand...

Yes, it instilled fear. And the fear of hell for those that don't believe in Jesus. And those things were taught in the NT. So God misled people on what was true? And before you say he didn't, explain why it says that Satan is like a roaring lion waiting to devour you? Or how Satan tries to temp you? These are not parables. They are not presented as being symbolic. Satan is presented as real... Why would God deceive people like that by putting it into his Holy Book?

loverofhumanity said:

The laws yes but not the prophecies regarding the Last Day or End of Times.

2 Peter 1:20

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Daniel 12:9

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Revelation 5:2-4

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

So no person, not anyone but the Father knows the unsealing of the meaning of the prophecies. No one in heaven and earth except.........

Revelation 5:5

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

This could not be referring to Christ as Christ had no ancestors as He called Himself the Son of God and was born of the Holy Spirit.

However Baha'u'llah was descended from David through his father Jesse and also through two wives of Abraham, Sarah and Katurah.

The Book that unsealed the Books, the meanings of the seven religions' mystical prophecies, was the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah.

References

Shoghi Effendi (re: Book of Certitude)

Revealed on the eve of the declaration of His Mission, it proffered to mankind the "Choice Sealed Wine," whose seal is of "musk," and broke the "seals" of the "Book" referred to by Daniel, and disclosed the meaning of the "words" destined to remain "closed up" till the "time of the end." (God Passes By)

Baha'u'llah (re: David)

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David.”


As a Descedant of David, Baha'u'llah rightfully laid claim to His Throne and to be the only one in heaven or on earth with the God given authority to unseal the meanings of all Holy Books.

Click to expand...

Revelation speaks of the "lamb" being found worthy. It mentions the name "Jesus" a couple of times. It mentions Jerusalem, but not Haifa. Sure, there's an abundance of verses you can find, but there's so many verses of Revelation you leave out.

adrian009 said:

...The argument that the Return of Christ is for the 'Christian faithful' is probably incorrect. Jesus although a Jew teaching Jews, really came for the Gentiles. He also came for the sinner and those who were struggling. His sternest criticism was for Jewish religious leaders...

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I thought for sure the NT says he is coming back for his people, the ones that endured to the end.

And came for the Gentiles? That's a good question. Who did more to make Christianity a religion that would appeal to the Gentiles? Jesus or Paul? Who gave Christians more teachings for their doctrines Jesus or Paul?

arthra said:

...I think the current era has a capacity to approach a model of a world civilization.

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But does the world want a religion that forbids alcohol, drugs and "alternative" sexual lifestyles?

But, since not too many people from other religions are even posting here, do they even care about the Baha'i Faith and what it is saying and offering to the world? They pretty much ignore it, believing it to be a false religion.

CG Didymus said:

You misinterpreted my post. But since you want to talk about war. Do animals fight over food, territory and mating? If God didn't want the human animal to behave that way, why did he create us that way? And speaking of creating us. Why did he make us with an immune system? I don't know all that goes on at the microscopic level, but it sounds like war.

Click to expand...

CG Didymus said:

Yes, it instilled fear. And the fear of hell for those that don't believe in Jesus. And those things were taught in the NT. So God misled people on what was true? And before you say he didn't, explain why it says that Satan is like a roaring lion waiting to devour you? Or how Satan tries to temp you? These are not parables. They are not presented as being symbolic. Satan is presented as real... Why would God deceive people like that by putting it into his Holy Book?

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God had to speak according to the capacity of people who were very simple. Presenting satan as a personality or person better enabled people to understand the threat of evil deeds and behaviour.

There was no lie just a different way of exposing the ego that people of that time could understand.

You're ego tries to tempt you too. Your ego can be like a lion also and kill and murder and go to war. Satan is just another term for the ego.

CG Didymus said:

Revelation speaks of the "lamb" being found worthy. It mentions the name "Jesus" a couple of times. It mentions Jerusalem, but not Haifa. Sure, there's an abundance of verses you can find, but there's so many verses of Revelation you leave out.

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The Bible speaks of two different Lambs. One is Christ Who appears in the Gospels. The other Lamb only appears in Revelation which refers to The Bab.

Lambs, Two Different Ones.

This is some research I have done about the two different Lambs that exist in the Bible. One is Jesus but the other is not the same lamb in Revelation because the Lamb in Revelation is slain not crucified whereas the Lamb in the New Testament is crucified. The original language describes one lamb as Arnion and the other as Amnos.

The Lamb in Revelation is not the same Lamb in The New Testament

Young Ram or Arnion is the diminutive of arĒn/arnos meaning male sheep . Arnion is a word specific to Revelation.

All the prior New Testament Books use amnos ( Lamb ) or pascha ( Paschal Lamb ), both versions clearly portraying Jesus.

But now, suddenly, an arnion Ram runs onto the Revelation stage. It displays horns, anger, and leadership—all typical of rams, not lambs.

(Apocalyse Secrets)

Jesus's title is never Arnion Lamb

Jesus is NEVER referred to as an Arnion Lamb (Ram) ever in any Book. He is always referred to as the Amnos or Paschal Lamb.

Arnion Lamb is ONLY ever used in Revelation (25 times)

Noun: ἀρνίον (arnion), GK 768 (S 721), 30x. arnion refers to a “lamb” or young “sheep.”

All uses of this word except for Jn. 21:15, where Jesus refers to his followers as “lambs,” are in Revelation.

(Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary)

arnion (ἀρνίον, 721)

It is used only by the apostle John, (a) in the plural, in the Lord’s command to Peter, John 21:15, with symbolic reference to young converts; (b) elsewhere, in the singular, in the Apocalypse, some 28 times, of Christ as the “Lamb” of God,

(Vines Complete Expository Dictionary)

Christ was crucified not slain.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him...

Mark 15:24. And when they had crucified him,.....

Luke 23:33. they crucified him,...

John 19:23. they had crucified Jesus,..

Crucified- Strong's Definition - g4717. σταυρόω stauroō; from 4716; to impale on the cross

Slain - Strong's definition - g4969. σφάζω sphazō; a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently): — kill, slay, wound.

The Lamb in Revelation was not crucified but slain

Revelation 5:6

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne ....stood a Lamb as it had been slain.....

Revelation 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain.....

Revelation 5:12

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain.......

So Who is the Arnion Lamb mentioned in Revelation that was slain not crucified? It was not Christ. But a Christ or One like Christ - The Bab.

CG Didymus said:

You misinterpreted my post. But since you want to talk about war. Do animals fight over food, territory and mating? If God didn't want the human animal to behave that way, why did he create us that way? And speaking of creating us. Why did he make us with an immune system? I don't know all that goes on at the microscopic level, but it sounds like war.

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CG I sincerely apologize. Could you kindly redirect me to which post and I'll try again?

I believe God gave us qualities that we could use either for good or for evil but are not evil within themselves. A knife is neither good not evil but can be misused. Anger against what is evil is good. Aggression against a tyrant is good. An immune system attacking germs to protect the body from disease is for our benefit.

CG Didymus said:

I thought for sure the NT says he is coming back for his people, the ones that endured to the end.

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You are referring to this verse from the Olivet discourse.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

Its important to note the context is the upcoming tribulations for both the Jews and the Church. These verses don't specifically refer to His Return although verses later in this chapter do. Jesus is simply counselling His disciples to remain steadfast.

CG Didymus said:

And came for the Gentiles? That's a good question. Who did more to make Christianity a religion that would appeal to the Gentiles? Jesus or Paul? Who gave Christians more teachings for their doctrines Jesus or Paul?

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It was Paul, not Jesus that was addressing a Greco-Roman audience although many of the teachings of Jesus were universal. The doctrines didn't really come until the fourth century when Christianity became established as the religion of the empire.

loverofhumanity said:

Yes but leaving people without any direction is the same because often they just revert to their base materialistic instincts. If you just leave a plant it may grow crooked but if you tend to it then it will grow straight.

Anyway there's not enough ahimsa nor is it widespread enough so there's work to be done. The tolerance Hindus have of all Faiths is something Muslims urgently need to learn. Clearly Muslim countries lag far behind in ahimsa.

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I don't think it's a problem of people not speaking, but rather a problem of people not listening, My Guru spoke at the United Nations in 2001. His talk was about if you want to end the violence in the world, you have to end it in the home. Beaters become beaters. It starts with corporal punishment, the making of a fist, the increase in volume of voice to increase the sense of having power over another individual.

adrian009 said:

Its all too common sadly. Baha'is are required to write a will to avoid these kinds of problems.

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Is it burial, cremation, or a choice?