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Where did the idea that suicide was wrong come from?

royol

Member
Is it written in the religious books? or is it just accepted to be wrong?
The reason I ask is if you truly believe you are going to be with your God when you die,
why wait? you have at most 80 or 90 years here but an eternity with your God.

God gave you your life to do as you wish with it, you can be a drunk or a priest,
you can help or kill people it is your choice, why is it so wrong to take your own life?

I am not advocating that you commit suicide, I am just curious.

(I think I already know the answer)
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
Paul the Apostle said To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.
So it would seem that killing yourself is purly up to you. If abortion is fine than suicide can be legalised. But I do think that it is extreemly selfish to commit suicide.
Also depending on what you believe, you might just come back and start all over again until you learn your life lesson. This is why Paul didn't allow himself to die until he had completely fulfilled his life lesson/destiny.
 

royol

Member
If you were a king with all the power and money but were outnumbered 100/1 by the peasants, religion would be a perfect weapon against the peasants, they would not be fighting and revolting against you, the king, they would be going against the teachings of God, so they would stay in their places and leave you alone to enjoy your power and wealth, the perfect solution.

Of coarse there was no one around smart enough to think up anything like that in those days, they were all very simple and uneducated, we all know that's not true,
they used psychology on a daily basis, if you are dealing with a largely uneducated populace you need psychology to keep them in order, rules needed to be enforced with the utmost brutality, and everyone was made to watch the punishments metered out.
When organized religion came along it was welcomed with open arms by everyone who
had any power at all, and they were quick to point out even they had to bow down to God.

Only one thing was wrong, they made the after life so wonderful the people were killing themselves to get there, they had to come up with some way of stopping this, they told the people they would not get into heaven if they committed suicide, job done, the people carried on suffering, convincing themselves along the way that the more they suffered the greater the reward in heaven.

A load of rubbish?? think about it.
 

Tigress

Working-Class W*nch.
Mystic-als said:
Paul the Apostle said To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.
So it would seem that killing yourself is purly up to you. If abortion is fine than suicide can be legalised. But I do think that it is extreemly selfish to commit suicide.
Also depending on what you believe, you might just come back and start all over again until you learn your life lesson. This is why Paul didn't allow himself to die until he had completely fulfilled his life lesson/destiny.

I don't mean to hijack royol's thread, but it would seem to me that asking someone to not commit suicide is also extremely selfish, at least in some sense, as one typically does not want to have to deal with the [emotional] repercussions--a similar dilemma to that which confronts the suicidal person. Thus, there exists
a sense of selfishness in either situation--it is inescapable.

I believe strongly that the idea of suicide being wrong has to do primarily with religiosity, and also perhaps, with politics. As someone mentioned previously, there are religions which stress that our bodies belong not to us, but to God or to some higher purpose. This, along with a reverence for life, be it only human life, can be found in and among the world religions, especially where the Abrahamic traditions are concerned. Politically, I believe it comes down to control; having control over others. I may be wrong, but again, it seems to me that the entire issue has to do with control in some manner, expecting others to live up to certain personal standards.

My $0.02,
Crystal
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
Crystal aka Tigress said:
I don't mean to hijack royol's thread, but it would seem to me that asking someone to not commit suicide is also extremely selfish, at least in some sense, as one typically does not want to have to deal with the [emotional] repercussions--a similar dilemma to that which confronts the suicidal person. Thus, there exists a sense of selfishness in either situation--it is inescapable.

I believe strongly that the idea of suicide being wrong has to do primarily with religiosity, and also perhaps, with politics. As someone mentioned previously, there are religions which stress that our bodies belong not to us, but to God or to some higher purpose. This, along with a reverence for life, be it only human life, can be found in and among the world religions, especially where the Abrahamic traditions are concerned. Politically, I believe it comes down to control; having control over others. I may be wrong, but again, it seems to me that the entire issue has to do with control in some manner, expecting others to live up to certain personal standards.
100% agreed
 

Karl R

Active Member
royol said:
Is it written in the religious books? or is it just accepted to be wrong?
It's just generally accepted to be wrong. Neither the old nor new testaments directly state that taking your own life is wrong.

royol said:
The reason I ask is if you truly believe you are going to be with your God when you die, why wait?
Life is a learning experience. Why are you so anxious to stop learning?

Life is also about helping others, making the world a better place for everyone. Will the world be a better place if all the genuinely good people abandon ship and leave the world completely in the hands of selfish people?

royol said:
you have at most 80 or 90 years here but an eternity with your God.

That seems like an excellent reason to avoid suicide. Heaven can wait.

I only have another 40 or 50 year to spend here meeting wonderful people, learning and teaching. Heaven will still be there when I'm done. I won't run out of time to spend in heaven.

royol said:
God gave you your life to do as you wish with it, you can be a drunk or a priest, you can help or kill people it is your choice, why is it so wrong to take your own life?
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20).
I can be a drunk or a priest ... but these choices are clearly not equal.

I can kill people or help people ... but these choices are clearly not equal.

I can kill myself, or I can live in such a way that it makes this world a better place. These choices are clearly not equal. I don't need a specific commandment from god to tell me that ending my life is wrong.

And I've already been told that I should take care of my body.

royol said:
If you were a king with all the power and money but were outnumbered 100/1 by the peasants, religion would be a perfect weapon against the peasants,
Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? A large portion of it is dedicated to telling rulers the proper and improper way to rule. It contains a lesson to the rulers on behalf of the peasants.

Historically, religions have hardly been "a perfect weapon" against the peasants. They have frequently been a thorn in the sides of rulers, and rulers have done their best to drive out or destroy religions that defied them.

royol said:
they would not be fighting and revolting against you, the king, they would be going against the teachings of God, so they would stay in their places and leave you alone to enjoy your power and wealth, the perfect solution.
The perfect solution? Popes periodically wielded more authority than kings or even emperors. As a ruler, would you find that convenient?

If you want a convenient solution, go back to the time of the Egyptians (or similar cultures) when the phaoroh was a god.

royol said:
When organized religion came along it was welcomed with open arms by everyone who had any power at all, and they were quick to point out even they had to bow down to God.
Nice rhetoric. Would you care to back it up with some historical fact?

Jesus came along. He was killed. For three centuries his followers were often butchered. That's a funny way to be "welcomed with open arms by everyone who had any power at all".

royol said:
Only one thing was wrong, they made the after life so wonderful the people were killing themselves to get there,
Again, would you care to back this up with some historical fact?

Most people kill themselves because this life seems intolerable. That can be the case regardless of your opinion of the afterlife.
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
royol said:
Where did the idea that suicide was wrong come from?
I think the verse Karl referenced is a good source.
Karl R said:
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20).
Purposely killing yourself is dishonoring God by disregarding the sacrifice Jesus Christ made for our sins.

Many years ago, one of my cousins commited suicide by hanging herself in the north Georgia mountains.:( She had been on and off many medications for depression throughout her teens, and her twin sister not only took the death exceptionally hard, but she also uses it as a reminder to stay on her medications.

My cousin was not an evil person but deeply troubled. I know some faiths teach that those who commit suicide are damned to eternal hell, but I prefer to believe that God is a bit more compassionate.:162:
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
I prefer to believe that she got what she wanted. Peace. Its sad to hear experiences like this. I am sorry.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
From:-http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/suicide.shtml

Is Suicide Murdering Yourself?

You are probably aware that the Bible strictly forbids murdering anyone. Therefore, some people have stated that people who commit suicide will be judged as murderers (of themselves) and therefore could not reasonably expect to go to heaven. However, the Bible reveals that people can not “murder” themselves. As one example, look at the Ten Commandments in Exodus chapter 20, verses 1-17 (Exodus 20:1-17). The first four Commandments specify our behavior towards God:

That does not mean that suicide is OK. It only means that it is not specifically forbidden. However, other guidelines lead us to believe that suicide is wrong in God’s eyes. For example, suicide generally is a result of depression, and the Bible does teach us something about that:
  1. God uses all sorts of people in the Bible, but He never uses anyone who is depressed or discouraged. You might find reading 1 Kings chapter 19 instructive.
  2. Satan does not care what non-Christians do with their lives. However, once people become Christians, they have “entered the ball game” and can expect more opposition than when they were “warming the bench.” New Christians often report being depressed, because depression and discouragement are two of Satan’s most powerful tools against them.
Further, for those of us who have gotten right with God, several guidelines apply to suicide:
  1. 1 Corinthians 10:31 reveal that the Holy Spirit dwells in those who are saved. It is our responsibility to treat Him with respect, and suicide is not appropriate.
  2. Genesis 1:26,27 (and similar verses) reveal that we are made in the image of God. This is one of the reasons we are not allowed to murder (see Genesis 9:6,7), so again suicide would be a bad thing.
  3. The Bible teaches us to trust, depend on, and believe in God throughout its length. (Romans 8:28 is one example.) To take your own life would show no faith in God. Notice that although the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ were persecuted, tortured, and put to death; they did not commit suicide for an “easy out.” They “fought the good fight” to the end (see 2 Timothy 4:6-8).
  4. Be aware of how suicide affects other people’s opinion of the person who died. It is common for people to wonder if someone who commits suicide went to heaven. (That is the reason for this page—get it?) That is a poor testimony for a “Christian warrior.”
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
Mystic-als said:
I prefer to believe that she got what she wanted. Peace. Its sad to hear experiences like this. I am sorry.
Thank you. She was deeply troubled, yet counseling and medication did not help her cope with life.:)
 

royol

Member
I read this in another thread I think it fits in here perfectly.

shytot said:
Thousands of years ago, three hunters stood on a cliff top looking for something to hunt,
one of them lost his footing and fell off the cliff, the other two made their way to the bottom
of the cliff, but their friend was dead, they were both very upset, this is how the conversation went,
1 'one good thing is, he has gone to a better place'
2 'he hasn't' he's right here'
1 'I don't mean his body, I mean his life force, his spirit'
2 'I don't understand what you mean'
1 'well, when you die your spirit leaves for another place'
2 'where does it go?
1 'It goes to a wonderful place, where it's never cold and there are lots of animals to hunt,
an absolutely wonderful place'
2 'Well what are we waiting for, let's get back up to the top of the cliff and jump'
1 'You cant do that, they wont let you in if you take your own life'
2 'who are 'they'
1 'I don't know, but I know they wont'
2 'How do you know so much about what happens after you die, and who makes the rules?
1 'You have never been to the next village upstream have you? well there is a man up there
who claims to be able to speak to the other side'
2 'He's half dead is he?'
1 'No, but he says they tell him what you must, and must not do, to get into that place'
2 'They tell him because he's got some kind of power has he?
1 'No, but he is a very powerful man in the community'
2 'I bet he is'

A story that made me think.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Here is a scenario.


So if I am going to be torture to death, then it would be ok for people to torture me, instead of me committing suicide? Is that selfish of depriving someone to torture me?

Would you prefer people to be martyr through, to go through torture first before death?


The people of Mazada, where the rebel Jews prefer sucide than to the possibilities of going imprisonment, slavery, torture and to be crucified. Are the Jews wrong to commit mass sucide, and deprive Roman joy of torture?

I just find it odd and hypocritical for Christian priests being able forgive a cold-blooded murderer with a promise of heaven, but can't forgive a person committing suicide, and they would suffer eternal damnation in hell.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
It's most definitly not up to the priest to forgive anyone. He can only ask. And even then it's only for him/her self.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
royol said:
Is it written in the religious books? or is it just accepted to be wrong?
The reason I ask is if you truly believe you are going to be with your God when you die,
why wait? you have at most 80 or 90 years here but an eternity with your God.

God gave you your life to do as you wish with it, you can be a drunk or a priest,
you can help or kill people it is your choice, why is it so wrong to take your own life?

I am not advocating that you commit suicide, I am just curious.

(I think I already know the answer)

Who said it was right?
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Mystic-als said:
It's most definitly not up to the priest to forgive anyone. He can only ask. And even then it's only for him/her self.

No, he can ask on behalf of others as well, but you are right that he has no power to forgive anyone, that is God's alone.

James
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
gnostic said:
I just find it odd and hypocritical for Christian priests being able forgive a cold-blooded murderer with a promise of heaven, but can't forgive a person committing suicide, and they would suffer eternal damnation in hell.

The problem from a traditional Christian perspective is that the murderer can repent of his deed and thus be forgiven. A suicide cannot (at least not in this life) which is why the Church can offer the murderer a chance to work out their salvation, but not the successful suicide. Only God can judge whether a person who commits suicide is forgiven so we remain silent on their fate. Any priest, however, who promises anyone - muderer or not - heaven is skating on very thin ice indeed. The opportunity to be saved can be promised but the final destination most certainly cannot.

James
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
JamesThePersian said:
he can ask on behalf of others as well
I agree. I think that it is only possible though because Jesus did (and still is doing) it for us. However since his (Jesus') death we have that same ability. Or is this idea pushing it?
 
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