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The Messianic verses of Isaiah

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Interestingly replying to this just made me realize something, the problem of comprehension is where people place their optimism.

So for example... Rabbinic Judaism places it on a 3rd temple, and in the hopes of a restoration to the times of David.
Christians think here is Hell controlled by the Devil, and thus look for a savoir from this world.
etc...

Realism is what we need for sure. However humanity has come a long way and it hasn't all been doom and gloom. In fact there have been profound social changes in the last one hundred years. We have greater equality between men and women, the oneness of humanity universally recognised despite race, nationality, and dare I say religion, much more of a global awareness, higher levels of education, and the rise of democratic institutions of governance rather than the empires of old. Slavery has been systematically abolished and technology has enabled us as two strangers to have this conversation. You can tell me about all the corruption, exploitation, materialism etc and that is a reality too.

Yet what about just reading the text unbiasedly, based on what is specifies, like I'd love the prophecy to be how I'd like the future step by step; yet it isn't...

It states it shall be like a roller-coaster; then each group with their own optimisms paint the roller-coaster as different things, such as an old fashion steam train, and claim we won't notice the difference, whilst a lot of the passengers are being sick.

So for instance that is the Jews in the Christian steam train version; whilst the Jews try to paint it as an exclusive horse and roller (even more old fashion than a steamroller), going back thousands of years to a point of barbarism, for the sake of returning some expectation, yet with the wrong aspects....

We all have assumptions. Should we interpret all scripture literally? Perhaps the best starting point when approaching the so called apocalyptic scriptures is to consider those we know have been fulfilled to some extent. Examples of this are the extensive prophecies that Jesus fulfilled as compared to those He didn't, the book of Daniel in regards to various empires, and best of all from a Christian perspective the words of Jesus Himself, when spoken on Mount Olives.

Fair enough Isaiah 1:26 says God will restore 'the Judges of old', it is in the context of their righteousness, and even their souls resurrecting, not just their practices.

Anyways to make a long story short; the hope (optimism presented within the Biblical text alone) is within all prophetic fulfillment, that all the workers of iniquity are removed this time for good...

As the flood was a first attempt, this time is to make sure by setting a snare/inception to catch out those that would swear falsely, and those that steal what isn't theirs; plus to remove all the ravenous beings in one go.

Now fair enough my optimism was as a musician; yet I've either got to be serious and say, 'what does God really want' or just make it up, and pretend none of it is real.

So consider Jesus prophetic words as he speaks of the destruction of the temple, the terrible things that will befall the Jewish people, the floods and earthquakes, the great tribulation etc. It all applied to what actually happened to the Jewish peoples and the end of an era of Judaism with the temple and Jerusalem as its centre. He spoke of difficulties for the rise of the church, but also used this as a metaphor for events in the far off future....now! The gospels were preached at all nations, and the diaspora eventually ended.

Yes, and it makes you a likeable person, and agree that challenging people's conceptions causes conflict....

Decided to myself, 'blood is thicker than water, spirit is stronger than flesh', thus I've either got to stand by the truth, even if I'm standing alone or join a world destined for Hell.

It just makes it easier to have conversations when we can find common ground. I had a period of about 2 1/2 years where I took time to watch the wheels of the world go by and make sense of it all. I think all the prophets have had a period of reflection before their message. I'm not a prophet, just an ordinary man.

Sorry should have maybe put Zionist, as some of them statements were from a BBC documentary on Zionists, who really believe that each Jew will have 10-20 Goyim slaves when the Messiah comes, and makes them rulers of the world.

Personally have Jewish genealogy; just shocked by their Rabbinic teachings being so bigoted, and racist.

It sounds like familiarity breeds contempt. I haven't had too much to do with Jews so they are somewhat of an unknown quantity to me. I think secularisation in some ways has resulting in peoples of all faiths moving away from such extreme positions. It has happened in the West with Christianity and eventually Islam will have the same experience as with Judaism. That's a doubled edged sword as on one hand people move away from religious extremism, on the other a movement away from religion, period. The problem is the religions of old seem less and less relevant in a modern world.

Did you read 'Isaiah 24 & Isaiah 34 is the 6th seal of the Tribulation'...

People are about to cause complete annihilation (WW3, biosphere overload, there is nuclear radiation flooding the pacific, etc), thus at its peak, when all nations fight against Israel God steps in, this then causes earthquakes, whirlwinds, hail, thunder, lightening, and a holy fire that consumes all evil in its path.

Then God resets earth, and the remnant who are here after all that Tribulation, have been chosen to be Saints of the Most High for ever. :innocent:

Yes I did read about the sixth seal and that's why I discussed just one aspect, the reference to the sun, moon, and stars that is a reference also to Isaiah and to Matthew 24. I think it is all just echoing the 10 plagues that the Egyptians suffered. Were the Egyptians wiped out? No. Will we suffer? Yes. Are we suffering now? Yes.

In regards to revelation 14:1

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The lamb is the Messiah.

The 144,000 are His followers from all lands and tribes. I think of the twelve tribes of Israel times another twelve representing all the tribes of the earth, times a thousand representing a great multitude. They don't have their Father's names literally written on their foreheads but the law or Tanakh written in their hearts (Jeremiah 31:34) and by their words and deeds are clearly associated with the Messiah for all to see.

The Mount Zion is the New Covenant the Messiah brings, which His followers are following. They are not all literally standing on Mount Zion on the outskirts of Jerusalem.

So not literal, metaphorical and happening as we speak.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Realism is what we need for sure.
The statements about the world getting a better place are lovely; we're still near Hell with selfish demons running around...So there needs to be some balance, and recognition of all sides.

Especially when we're discussing the Biblical prophecy; not how we would like the world to be.

The way this is becoming that I'm the negative one, and you're positive is the opposite...

I'm open to seeing all the positives in the world and negatives, having spent a vast amount of time to understand both.

Yet whilst we only paint one side, we create the opposite reaction, as everything within reality has an equal and opposite reaction.

Thinking that I'm negative, as I'm explaining an evil book; is where i can say that someone is the opposite...

If we don't recognize the atrocities in the Biblical prophecy that are evil, then it says more about us.

Which is where the book is a perfect measure down here near Hell, as some people think they're saints, whilst accepting iniquity as fine.
Should we interpret all scripture literally?
Each individual text should be questioned on its own merit, and within the Tapestry of the rest of the prophets.

Each statement should be looked at in every possible logical perspective, even backwards and upside down, to see which makes the most sense, with the least amount of questionable steps (ockams razor).
The gospels were preached at all nations, and the diaspora eventually ended.
On the one hand you're asking the question of studying the prophetic texts to understand what is really going on; then this statement stops at a superficial feel good factor.

Yeshua said 'share the gospel as a testimony against them', i.e. the Gentiles are not going to get it, the whole world will be deceived by this (Luke 21:8 'I Am'), and then the end shall come.

The diaspora hasn't ended, they've (elite Zionist) forcibly manipulated the whole worlds political environment to make a false nation, which is going to cause WW3 according to Biblical prophecy.
It just makes it easier to have conversations when we can find common ground.
The common ground is analytically looking at all the prophecy, and not implanting our own feelings on to it.
It sounds like familiarity breeds contempt
Again this isn't personal, these are the facts, the BBC documentary interviewed many Israeli Zionists, the Talmud states these things.
Were the Egyptians wiped out? No.
The text states only 144000 shall remain of the whole world's population; Isaiah 13:12 states 'that men shall be rarer than gold'.
They are not all literally standing on Mount Zion on the outskirts of Jerusalem.
There are many verses throughout the Tanakh saying the Lord shall reign from Mount Zion, his Law shall be taught from there literally.
They don't have their Father's names literally written on their foreheads but the law or Tanakh written in their hearts
Sorry how do you know? You've just stated you're not a prophet; personally see those who are selected by their foreheads, there are many identifiable signs within a person's brow...

Should take into account those that are worthy receive a mark (Revelation 7:3-4); those who are unworthy also receive a different mark on their foreheads (Revelation 13:16). :innocent:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thinking that I'm negative, as I'm explaining an evil book; is where i can say that someone is the opposite...

If we don't recognize the atrocities in the Biblical prophecy that are evil, then it says more about us.

Which is where the book is a perfect measure down here near Hell, as some people think they're saints, whilst accepting iniquity as fine.

We're all souls wandering through this world. He who considers himself greatest is least so do we really want to have that discussion?

Besides, I'm always ready to compromise and see the world as being this dark, evil, unrecognisable place. Why not?

Each individual text should be questioned on its own merit, and within the Tapestry of the rest of the prophets.

Each statement should be looked at in every possible logical perspective, even backwards and upside down, to see which makes the most sense, with the least amount of questionable steps (ockams razor).

Ok, lets consider options.

On the one hand you're asking the question of studying the prophetic texts to understand what is really going on; then this statement stops at a superficial feel good factor.

Yeshua said 'share the gospel as a testimony against them', i.e. the Gentiles are not going to get it, the whole world will be deceived by this (Luke 21:8 'I Am'), and then the end shall come.

The diaspora hasn't ended, they've (elite Zionist) forcibly manipulated the whole worlds political environment to make a false nation, which is going to cause WW3 according to Biblical prophecy.

You have Jewish ancestry so can say what you like. If I said that, I would rightly be labelled anti-Semitic. I can understand your frustration with the Middle East, I'm just not ready to bring the flame thrower out and start incinerating Jews. Besides their numbers took quite a hit 70 or so years ago.

My point was about learning from history, but if WWIII is about to break out, and I acknowledge it might, then I'll put the history books away.

The common ground is analytically looking at all the prophecy, and not implanting our own feelings on to it.

So I am and your not?

Again this isn't personal, these are the facts, the BBC documentary interviewed many Israeli Zionists, the Talmud states these things.

I actually know this. It just doesn't bother me, like it bothers you.

The text states only 144000 shall remain of the whole world's population; Isaiah 13:12 states 'that men shall be rarer than gold'.

Here is what the KJV says:

I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isaiah 13:2

Its all about quality, not quantity

There are many verses throughout the Tanakh saying the Lord shall reign from Mount Zion, his Law shall be taught from there literally.

OK, here's one. Isaiah 2:2-5. Have any other's in mind?

Sorry how do you know? You've just stated you're not a prophet; personally see those who are selected by their foreheads, there are many identifiable signs within a person's brow...

Is a man a prophet for saying the sun will rise tomorrow?

I'm a little sceptical about the marks on peoples foreheads and prefer my interpretation for now.

Should take into account those that are worthy receive a mark (Revelation 7:3-4); those who are unworthy also receive a different mark on their foreheads (Revelation 13:16). :innocent:

Right, and the new Jerusalem will literally descend from the clouds?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Besides, I'm always ready to compromise and see the world as being this dark, evil, unrecognisable place. Why not?
This is the whole point, there are constant wars, the world is full of spiky plants, poisonous insects, etc... The images people present for what Hell is like, are all found here.

Now there are good wheat and bad tares within this garden (paradise)....Yet the reality around us, found presented in many religions, is that here is a place between Heaven and Hell.

Doing Time

Earth’s Dynamics
My point was about learning from history
Entirely agree, we should all learn from all mistakes within the past.
So I am and your not?
If I've added personal feelings, show me with the text; put forward an analytical statement showing why with consistent evidence, will be very quick to apologize, if someone can logically help me see otherwise.
It just doesn't bother me, like it bothers you.
This is due to known information, there are Jews who've protested the illegal settlement, in both the context of international law, and them seeing it going against prophecy.

Basically the prophecies are Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34, and Isaiah 61; when the Messiah comes he gives them back the nation.

This is why I'm worried, as you don't murder an angel, then think you're going to sneakily take your nation back, when God already foretold all this would happen.
Have any other's in mind?
Psalms 132:13
Isaiah 24:23 (Tribulation)
Isaiah 52:8 (Lord returns to Zion)
Jeremiah 31:6
Joel 3:16-17 Joel 3:21
Micah 4:2 Micah 4:7
Zechariah 2:10 Zechariah 8:3

There are more, yet that is a quick search of where the Lord comes to dwell in Zion, using Esword with 'Lord' + 'Zion'.
Is a man a prophet for saying the sun will rise tomorrow?
Nope, that is based on events reoccurring; not seeing beyond time, to know before the things happen.
I'm a little sceptical about the marks on peoples foreheads and prefer my interpretation for now.
If you want can explain some of them, so it isn't so whimsical....

If someone is haughty, their eye brows often go up at the edges or middle, as they raise their brow at people, whilst looking down...

As Grandma used to say, "careful if the wind changes, you will stay like it."

If someone is aggressive, the middle of the brow is often forward due to snarling their face up... etc... Can go into so much detail.
Right, and the new Jerusalem will literally descend from the clouds?
Based upon Revelation, that is what it states... Daniel says the Kingdom is given to him who comes on the cloud.

From what i can gather, there is a world wide destruction, then God comes here, which is basically some of what is written...

It is Mahapralaya, the dissolution, where things return to being God; then our realm is reformed, and thus the New Kingdom is seen as coming from the clouds. :innocent:
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This is the whole point, there are constant wars, the world is full of spiky plants, poisonous insects, etc... The images people present for what Hell is like, are all found here.

Do you realise that we have had a time of relative peace and prosperity since world war II despite the twentieth century being the most bloody and brutal in history.

List of wars by death toll - Wikipedia

Now there are good wheat and bad tares within this garden (paradise)....Yet the reality around us, found presented in many religions, is that here is a place between Heaven and Hell.


Nice poetry

This is due to known information, there are Jews who've protested the illegal settlement, in both the context of international law, and them seeing it going against prophecy.

Israel is hardly a paradise of peace, but fulfils the prophecy nonetheless.

Basically the prophecies are Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34, and Isaiah 61; when the Messiah comes he gives them back the nation.

This is why I'm worried, as you don't murder an angel, then think you're going to sneakily take your nation back, when God already foretold all this would happen.

The ominous parts of these prophetic books are in the context of being in the Divided Kingdom era with Isaiah being pre-exile Judea, Jeremiah considers the Jews under Babylonian rule, and Ezekiel during the exile.

Psalms 132:13
Isaiah 24:23 (Tribulation)
Isaiah 52:8 (Lord returns to Zion)
Jeremiah 31:6
Joel 3:16-17 Joel 3:21
Micah 4:2 Micah 4:7
Zechariah 2:10 Zechariah 8:3

There are more, yet that is a quick search of where the Lord comes to dwell in Zion, using Esword with 'Lord' + 'Zion'.

OK,. We have Christ returning out of Zion from a mountain, Any theories about which one? I'll go for the mountain of Elijah or Mount Carmel, Haifa. You know who Elijah returns as in the NT right?

If you want can explain some of them, so it isn't so whimsical....

If someone is haughty, their eye brows often go up at the edges or middle, as they raise their brow at people, whilst looking down...

As Grandma used to say, "careful if the wind changes, you will stay like it."

If someone is aggressive, the middle of the brow is often forward due to snarling their face up... etc... Can go into so much detail.

So it does have something to do with peoples expressions coming from their inner selves. Like Matthew 6:22

Based upon Revelation, that is what it states... Daniel says the Kingdom is given to him who comes on the cloud.

From what i can gather, there is a world wide destruction, then God comes here, which is basically some of what is written...

It is Mahapralaya, the dissolution, where things return to being God; then our realm is reformed, and thus the New Kingdom is seen as coming from the clouds. :innocent:

The clouds are the mists of traditions and false beliefs that prevent us from seeing the returned Christ clearly. It's like having to empty yourself of all learning or knowledge as you indicated earlier. You can not fill a glass with water that's already filled. It must be emptied first. Its one of the meanings to Christ's words blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom on earth. Matthew 5:3

The Jews expected miraculous signs to accompany their Messiah too no doubt. They misunderstood the symbolic meaning of their verses.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, lets talk about Satan....

You cannot blieve in the Holy Scriptures if you do not believe that the Devil, Satan, is a real person!!!

Of course. I can and I do.

Do you believe that Jesus was trying to deceive everyone when he was tempted by the Devil, Matthew 4:1-10, 1Peter 2:22, Jude 9, Revelation 12:7-17.

Matthew 4:1-10
Jesus mastered His lower nature, His humanity, and prepared for is Divine mission.

1 Peter 2:22
Christ perfected

Jude 9
Symbolic use of the term devil in regards to spiritual battles.

Revelation 12:7-17
Same type of language in reference to the spiritual battles we all go through and the world will endure.

The things spoken of at Isaiah 11:1-9, sounds like a paradise earth to me.

Agreed. In the context of the Returned Christ.

Revelation 20:1-3, 10, sounds like the end of a real rotten person to me.

Talking about the world being ruled in accordance with God's commandments, love, and justice and overcoming the dark forces of egotism and barbarism that have been so dominant in the history of humanity.

What about back in the Hebrew Scriptures where Satan talked to Eve, Genesis 3:1-6, and about Satan coming to the great meeting of God and the other angels, Job 1:6-12.

Genesis is a symbolic story and not to be taken literally although Adam was most likely a real person.

Interesting how Satan takes on a very different persona in the book of Job compared to the NT. Once again an allegorical story meant to convey a spiritual message rather than historically accurate.

Satan seems to be a real person, just like the other angels. At 2Corinthians 11:13-15, it seem that Paul is talking about a real person.

References to the condition of religion becoming darkness instead of light, deceit instead of truthfulness.

At John 8:44, Jesus is talking about Satan as a real person, and Jesus does not deceive or prevaricate. Agape!!!

Was Jesus telling His Jewish audience they were literally the children of the devil? It's meant as a metaphor.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Stop a second and think about this. If all people were believing the truth and living as Jesus said to live, why would there be a reason for more than one religion???

John 10:14-16 Jesus makes mention of other religions and tells us there will be a time when there will be one Shepherd and one fold. This was practically impossible in past times when people were so separated by geography and cultural barriers. Now the earth is one country and mankind its citizens.

All Christians are to speak the same, teach the same things, Ephesians 4:3-6, one faith, one hope, 1Corinthians,1:10, 1Peter 3:15, John 4:23,24, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-13. Remember, in the first century, Christianity was called THE Way, Acts 9:2, 19:9,23.

All Christians don't speak the same language and there is much disunity. Christianity is too far gone to remedy the conditions of the world. That's why Christ has returned.

You know, as well as I Do that when you have different religions, there is going to be disunity.

All those religions prophesise a time of moral decline wen another great teacher will come and remedy the conditions of the world. In Christianity that is Christ returned. Once again. one sheep, one fold.

How many Arks were there, in Noah's day.

None. Its an allegorical story.

Really, there is no good reason for there being different religions. Not if all spoke the same things as the Bible says we should.

The reality is that there are different religions and they are there for a reason. God who is Creator of All and Who has Dominion over all things is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Do you realise that we have had a time of relative peace
Yes; yet not if we lived in other parts of the world or if we had colored skin.
Israel is hardly a paradise of peace, but fulfils the prophecy nonetheless.
Then this isn't the prophecy, as what is specified, is the Lion shall lie with the Lamb, there shall no longer be any death near God's Holy Mountain (Isaiah 65:25).

Instead the prophecy being fulfilled, is that Jerusalem shall become a burdensome stone, that causes all nations to come against it (Zechariah 12:3), which triggers WW3, which causes the Tribulation, thus God has to step in (Zechariah 12:8-9), as we destroy all life on this planet.
You know who Elijah returns as in the NT right?
Yeah Elijah was John the Baptist, removing the false Gospel of John makes this clearer, as in John it says he said he wasn't; yet in the Synoptic Gospels Yeshua said he was, and prophetically he was.
We have Christ returning out of Zion from a mountain, Any theories about which one?
Mount Zion is a physical place near Jerusalem according to historical Biblical accounts; it is a metaphoric description for the children of Zion/Israel within the prophets.

For me the name Zion (ציּון) is spelled nearly the same as the word for flock (צאון / צאן), as they're interlinking words due to being part of the same spiritual community...

The difference is the vowel sound in the middle by the way, so you have two consonant Ts/Z and N, with 'a' in flock, and 'yv' in Zion.
So it does have something to do with peoples expressions coming from their inner selves. Like Matthew 6:22
Yes, for me the soul projects our self; like in the Matrix film Neo keeps his own appearance, as it is his projection of himself.
The clouds are the mists of traditions and false beliefs that prevent us from seeing the returned Christ clearly.
We can examine all the text specifically referenced, and show them talking literally, not metaphorically.
The Jews expected miraculous signs to accompany their Messiah too no doubt. They misunderstood the symbolic meaning of their verses.
Unfortunately this is why quoted a Sanskrit word (Mahapralaya) as it interlinks with a vast array of Hindu explanations of the same event; could have used Zoroastrianism for another exact same description, this is relayed globally by independent sources.

The Bab's specifications of the one Manifested by God, is within many customs; yet not to bring world peace, they come before the time of the destruction, like Noah or Jonah.

Many go contrary to what is written, as for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction; so expecting a world leader to convince hypocrites to become righteous isn't possible.

Honestly your loving heart shines, and is a light in the darkness; yet recognize it is dark and muddy, else you'll unfortunately get tarnished by it the same. :purpleheart:

Like you say find common ground, and first we need to start at the base, here is the Maya (place of delusion) or Gehenna (God's organic recycle bin).

In a conscious level we can leave here, and become pure consciousness, thus here is a great training ground. :innocent:
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
For me the name Zion (ציּון) is spelled the same as the name for flock (צאון / צאן), as their part of the same spiritual community.
For you, then, the word "payer" is spelled the same as the word "pour".

The word צאן, tzon, is 1 syllable, 3 letters, tz-aleph-nun sofit and the word ציּון is 2 syllables, 4 letters, tz-yod-vav-nun sofit.

The two words share an opening and closing letter and nothing else.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
For you, then, the word "payer" is spelled the same as the word "pour".

The word צאן, tzon, is 1 syllable, 3 letters, tz-aleph-nun sofit and the word ציּון is 2 syllables, 4 letters, tz-yod-vav-nun sofit.

The two words share an opening and closing letter and nothing else.
I'm almost tempted to "Show Ignored Content." :D

(How was your Pesach? We're still eating matzah brei.}
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
For you, then, the word "payer" is spelled the same as the word "pour".
Some believe Ancient Hebrew was originally a pictographic writing adapted from hieroglyphics...

Having tested this, it does make sense when applied to multiple names, and characters, so I'm open to questioning that specific language that way.
The word צאן, tzon, is 1 syllable, 3 letters, tz-aleph-nun sofit and the word ציּון is 2 syllables, 4 letters, tz-yod-vav-nun sofit.

The two words share an opening and closing letter and nothing else.
My understanding in ancient Hebrew/Hieroglyphics, is that the consonants imply meaning behind a word, with the vowels implying emphasis.

Thus If the letters used in the middle are vowels, the root consonants then create interlinking meanings...

Therefore no one would spell something nearly the same, without a reason to do so.

When we then examine that hypothesis across the prophets, and the way they use the children of Zion symbolically, it is quite clear the symbolic word 'flock' could be interchanged in many contextual occasions. :innocent:
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
My understanding in ancient Hebrew/Hieroglyphics, is that the consonants imply meaning behind a word, with the vowels implying emphasis.

Thus If the letters used in the middle are vowels, the root consonants then create interlinking meanings...
Except that the middle letters are not vowels. They are consonants. Therefore the "root consonants" are not the same and the link you believe in does not exist.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes; yet not if we lived in other parts of the world or if we had colored skin.

If we had lived in Europe during the period from the start of WWI to the end of WWII we would have lived trough an apocalypse. The loss of nearly a third, or six million Jews is on another scale and is an abomination that caused desolation. In Syria they have been going through their own apocalypse.

Then this isn't the prophecy, as what is specified, is the Lion shall lie with the Lamb, there shall no longer be any death near God's Holy Mountain (Isaiah 65:25).

Isaiah 65:25 is like Isaiah 11:6-9
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.


This is a time of world peace where nations, religions, and peoples that were previously bore animosity to one another are now reconciled and live in peace. The people no longer corrupt religion. A spiritual culture based on the One true God has been securely established.


Instead the prophecy being fulfilled, is that Jerusalem shall become a burdensome stone, that causes all nations to come against it (Zechariah 12:3), which triggers WW3, which causes the Tribulation, thus God has to step in (Zechariah 12:8-9), as we destroy all life on this planet.

Zechariah is a post exilic prophet in the Divided Kingdom period. Symbolism around the temple and Jerusalem is very important. Lets consider the verses you quote.

Zechariah 12:3 we need to see in context:

The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:1-6

They are not easy verses. Jerusalem appears to be a used as a symbol for the word of God. In this context I would consider the Mosaic law and covenant. Jerusalem is the Holy City which all the lovers of God's words inhabit. This makes sense if we consider also that the Covenant of God (Jerusalem) will be established even in Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:6). The words of God will be a river life eternal to God's loved ones and a flame of fire to His enemies.

In that light the verses of Zechariah 12:8-9
In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


Is saying the same thing. The people of the word of God will triumph and those that oppose it will be defeated. Once again, Jerusalem is used as a symbol. In that way Revelation 21:1-4 makes sense.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Yeah Elijah was John the Baptist, removing the false Gospel of John makes this clearer, as in John it says he said he wasn't; yet in the Synoptic Gospels Yeshua said he was, and prophetically he was.

Elijah is the return of John the Baptist in spirit, not physically. In the same way the returned Christ is not the same physical Christ as two thousand years ago. He will have a new name.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:12

Mount Zion is a physical place near Jerusalem according to historical Biblical accounts; it is a metaphoric description for the children of Zion/Israel within the prophets.

That's reasonable.

Yes, for me the soul projects our self; like in the Matrix film Neo keeps his own appearance, as it is his projection of himself.

Hmmm. OK then.

We can examine all the text specifically referenced, and show them talking literally, not metaphorically.

In regards to cloud, this signified the presence of God.

16 Bible verses about Clouds, God's Presence

The Bab's specifications of the one Manifested by God, is within many customs; yet not to bring world peace, they come before the time of the destruction, like Noah or Jonah.

His coming has set in motion a process by which we are heading towards world peace. Obviously there are further tribulations ahead.

Many go contrary to what is written, as for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction; so expecting a world leader to convince hypocrites to become righteous isn't possible.

Like in the time of Jesus, it will not be the religious or worldly leaders that initially followed Christ. That didn't come until the emperor Constantinople became Christian three hundred years later.

Honestly your loving heart shines, and is a light in the darkness; yet recognize it is dark and muddy, else you'll unfortunately get tarnished by it the same. :purpleheart:

Thank you but Jesus taught love God, love your neighbours, and love your enemies. If for one second I reflect that, praise be to God only. If the power is truly of God then that is my strength and protection.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
This is a time of world peace where nations, religions, and peoples that were previously bore animosity to one another are now reconciled and live in peace. The people no longer corrupt religion. A spiritual culture based on the One true God has been securely established.
Why do you scripturally believe that all happens, like what leads to that even being possible?
Elijah is the return of John the Baptist in spirit, not physically.
Yes agreed, spirit can be planted anywhere God chooses... In Judaism there is an idea of our soul's being Sparks.
In the same way the returned Christ is not the same physical Christ as two thousand years ago. He will have a new name.
Indeed; yet notice Revelation twice says he will be as a thief, though he also fights them with the sword of his mouth, having a two edged esword that cuts both ways.

In Revelation the world is already convinced of a lie, so him returning and being like 'I'm back' isn't happening; the Jews don't want to hear any of it, the Muslims expect him to be a devout Muslim, and the Christians with their crucifixes on, want to be best friends as he was tortured to death for them.
In regards to cloud, this signified the presence of God.
[GALLERY=media, 7193][/GALLERY]
The Oneness of Heaven is all hazy, like a big cloud of ambient peace emanating from the Core. :innocent:
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
So a book can't tell you about what ice cream flavors will be available when the 50th president is in office without discussing the president?
I believe if the text says the president likes guava ice cream it will be available.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Thankfully this is why the Tanakh is very specific, and uses Yeshuat Eloheinu in Isaiah 52:10, so it clearly identifies the servant by name...

Yet some people are trying to read the ice cream menu, as a science book, and thus get confused when it doesn't use specific grammar. :innocent:

I believe that is a far fetched stretch. The Salvation of God appears to be more of a concept than a person in this verse.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The Salvation of God appears to be more of a concept than a person in this verse.
Agreed, and that is what trying to say; which is why when people question it being a noun, keep saying it isn't the point.

From my understanding of all the prophetic text, is that the concept then becomes made manifest by God.

Yeshua himself as a person, is only a part of the concept of Salvation. :innocent:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do you scripturally believe that all happens, like what leads to that even being possible?

What else would world peace look like? The verses I've previously quoted from Isaiah 2:2-6 and Isaiah 9:6-7 and Isaiah 11:6-9 are the obvious ones from Isaiah. The last two books of revelation have a vision of peaceful world with a new heaven and earth, if we don't take it literally. Zechariah prophesises world peace too, but it how we interpret it.

Consider important social changes in the last one to two hundred years.

Abolition of slavery
Equality between men and women
The oneness of humanity regardless of race and nationality
Universal education
Establishment of democratic government

Are we there yet? Of course not. Have we made significant progress. Yes, definitely. Will these principles become universally established. That will be where we differ because I see the inevitability of all of the above.

All the major world religions have been preparatory assist us to recognise the Universal Messiah that both the Tanakh and NT mention. There will always be some who don't get it.


The Oneness of Heaven is all hazy, like a big cloud of ambient peace emanating from the Core. :innocent:

I like the picture.:) Very much like heaven on earth.
 
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