Didn't I mention Titus 1:10? It's a few verses down, in that context.
You certainly did, I just missed. I apologize. I don't think the context will be any different buy let me post 1 Titus and comment on it.
New International Version
For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.
And here is your interpretation of that verse.
Paul said they "disown [God] by their works.
It is especially important that you bolded the word
disown. I checked over 20 translations and none of them contained the word disown. I read the verses before and after Titus 10. They do not contain anything about disowning either. What Paul was talking about is false teaching, especially among Jewish converts. BTW that is exactly the same issue Paul was talking about in the verse from Galatians I thought you were referring to. Jews who left became Christians were teaching that Christians must also obey all the laws of the "law" (basically the OT), Paul said their teaching was meaningless and deceptive, but he did not say that they therefor were separated from Christ.
Issues concerning works and grace are very hard to distinguish and long and careful study is required to properly understand teachings concerning them. I spent 3 years at about 20 hours per week studying the ontology of substitutionary atonement, alone. Condemning something a Christian does and that Christian himself becoming condemned again after being born again are two radically different things.
Yes, I agree, from these types. But Christians can stop following Christ, i.e., lose their faith, by committing deliberate sins. That's what I meant, in referencing 1 Corinthians 5.
That's why the Greek Scriptures (NT) writers were constantly admonishing their brothers, on building up and strengthening their faith. Their genuine faith, in turn, will impel them to good works.
But, as James said, if good works aren't evident in a person's life, their faith "is dead". Then how would John 3:16 apply to us?
What you stated above puts you squarely in group 2 not group 3. Your saying that salvation comes by grace but must be maintained by works. That is a logical contradiction, its like saying a person must be a married bachelor, or a square circle.
However to show you what the logical contradiction is takes more work.
1. First your going to have to explain exactly what it means to follow Christ down to the last detail in
all categories.
2. Then you will have to show the exact line within your standard that determines the exact point at
which I am guilty of not following Christ.
3. Is no longer fully following Christ a sin?
4. Did Christ not come to forgive all sin?
5. Is not God the author and finisher of our faith?
Let me give some more examples of grace.
Paul again, I love Paul. He knew more about the law than all the other apostles combined yet taught more about grace than the rest combined:
New Living Translation
But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
That is the description of a man who had not one good work to his name, yet the man himself was saved. This was possible because it is Christ's merits (not ours) by which we are judged. That is what substitutionary atonement means. Christ's righteousness is substituted in place of my own unrighteousness and my sin was imparted to Christ and fully punished on the cross.
The bible says that once we come to know Christ:
New International Version
Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you;
he will never leave you nor forsake you."
If I stop following Christ (whatever that means) and he forsakes me then the verse above is a lie.
Paul again:
Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)
8
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9
not by works, so that no one can boast.…
We see again that nothing I do has anything to do with me being saved, it is Christ who is the
guarantor of my salvation. Whatever I lack in righteousness was paid for entirely by Christ, if you think that I must earn what Christ paid for, then how is it that Christ's sacrifice lacked or failed to produce exactly what we all need?
Camp #3. It is God's gift. But it's not given to the ungrateful.
1. You argued above for camp number 2, but your doing as I predicted, and back peddling into camp 3 when challenged. I am not being critical, it takes a lot of time to gain clarity about what salvation requires.
2. You cannot be grateful for something unless you have it.
3. So only once I have salvation can I be grateful for it.
4. That cannot possibly mean that gratefulness is required to get salvation.
5. You describing another logical contradiction, or a square circle.
6. Keep this in mind, the verse does not say it is the gift from God or God's gift (hermeneutics and exegesis is very critical here). The verse say that salvation is the gift OF God. God is the gift, when born again, the holy spirit (one of the three persons composing the being of God) comes to life in our hearts forever. We literally get God when we are saved, he promises to never leave or forsake us, and he paid the entire price to save me.
I think your underestimating God.
With that in mind, It's through our faith that we "gain grace", and attain a righteous standing. But a dead faith, is no faith!
I believe your quoting James in the wrong context. James is describing what should be apparent if someone is a Christian, not what someone must do to become a Christian. In fact the greatest bible commentators interpret James in that context. Also keep in mind where faith comes from.
1. Hebrews 12:2King James Version (KJV)
Looking unto Jesus the
author and finisher of our faith,
Jesus will not fail to complete the work begun in every Christian.
2.
New International Version
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last
day."
In a single verse we see that faith comes from God (not me), and that everyone who is born again
(receives Christ) will be raised up by Christ (not by our works).
3. One last verse (I do not want to over burden you):
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My
Father who has given them to Me is greater than all.
No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
…
How is it that I can do (crawl out of Christ's hand by failing to follow him) what Christ said no one could do
above?
4. Why would grace (once applied) require maintenance by works? That is another married bachelor. Are
you familiar with the logical laws about non-contradiction?
HC if you doubt the context I claim the book of James was written in just let me know and I will quote from the great biblical commentators concerning the verses you paraphrased above. Also, I would recommend you simply quote the verses you bring up instead of paraphrasing them. Good to hear from you, talk to you again soon.
First and foremost, I don't believe god(s) exist, which means the moral instruction Christians receive is just as human based as mine and therefore not divine. But more importantly,
