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The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
The law is a picture of heavenly realities and the law provides for a king, so the law portends the Messiah King. It doesn't matter what David thought or didn't think about it as God wrote a story of His glory using David. A good example of David as a type of Messiah is in Ezekiel where God will Himself be shepherd after the false shepherd messed things up and after about 25 of these statements God says 'I will set David as shepherd over them' so David is a type of the Messiah but more than that an incarnated Messiah.... isn't it great?

All kings in Israel were anointed to be king. That's one kind of Messiah. Another one was to be anointed as a High Priest; another kind of Messiah, even another, was to be a major prophet; all temporary messiahs restricted by death. The eternal Messiah of HaShem was the collective Messiah in the People of Israel if you read Exodus 19:5,6. That's Messiah the People to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Now, if your read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One. That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel if you read Exodus 4:22,23.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
I like how in Psalm 137, we 'hang up our harps' and then David (who is long gone and a type of Christc) picks up his harp and plays his heart out 8 more Psalms and someday all kings will sing of God's glory as well, all kings, all people, everything that has breath. The first octet Psalms start with the blessed man the anointed poured out on Mt Zion reminiscent of Christ's incarnation death and resurrection but this last 8 of David as well, the death in 137 and then the resurrection of David and the redemption of the world.... isn't it great? Psalms book 5: Songs for coming home

Jesus was a Jewish man, BTW, a loyal Jew as the Tanach is concerned. And you also above speak of David, another loyal Jew responsible for the quote in II Samuel 12:23 which says that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. How do you speak about the resurrection of David then? This is not a Jewish doctrine. Am I missing something here? In fact, take a look at not only II Samuel 12:23 but also Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc. All references asserting to the fact that bodily resurrection does not exist as a Jewish doctrine.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Indeed, "sin in Spanish means without" and I find interesting your analogy of "sin" in Spanish as a transgression of the Law; but I hope you are joking because sin in Spanish does not at all mean a transgression of the Law.
i did not mention law....

to live without God is a sin

you need not be a lawbreaker for that to happen
 
Before even contemplating the title question, why would anyone be questioning an English word that has only existed since the Sixteenth Century CE? That is nearly 3,000 years after Torah was given.

The Hebrew Masculine Noun – כִּפּוּר – kippur, which is usually translated “atonement,” comes from the Root Verb – כָּפַר – kafar, which means: 1) to bend, to arch over, to cover; 2) to wipe out; to rub out; to erase. In order to erase a violation of Mitz’vah from your record, you had to fulfill your sentence. Crime and punishment are crime and punishment; it is not rocket science.

To begin with, there are three distinct degrees of violation of Mitz’vot: 1) חַטָּאת – ḥattaʾt, which is most commonly translated “sin,” but literally means “mistake,” “accident,” “error,” “inadvertence,” “missing the mark,” etc.; 2) עָווֹן – ʿavon, which is commonly translated as “iniquity,” but literally means “crime,” “misdeed,” “misdemeanor,” “perversion,” “offence,” “wrong,” etc.; 3) פֶּשַׁע – peshaʿ, which is most commonly translated “transgression,” but literally means “felony,” “malefaction,” “rebellion,” “villainess,” etc.

The ancient Jewish Judicial System really wasn’t all that different from any modern Judicial System. Let’s look at ḥattaʾt, ʿavon, and peshaʿ from a modern perspective.

If you are driving on an icy road and you see a traffic light coming up, you try to carefully slow the vehicle, but still slide through the red light, you just committed a ḥattaʾt. Even though you tried your very best to obey the law, circumstances out of your control caused you to violate the law outside of your own good intentions. This is the only type of Mitz’vah violation that could be atoned through a gift offering.

You have a family of five; you are the sole bread winner; you suddenly lose your job; you have enough savings for rent/mortgage and utilities for one month; you have nothing left for food; you stuff a loaf of bread inside your coat and zip it up; you walk out of the store; you feed your family. You have just committed an ʿavon. As justifiable as it may seem, you intentionally stole a loaf of bread; therefore you intentionally violated the law. There is no type of sacrifice whatsoever that can atone for this type of violation/sin; only repentance, restitution plus 20%, and completion of whatever punishment the court decided to give you.

You just randomly decide to go on a serial killing spree and even though you know fully well that it is absolutely wrong, you simply don’t care. You have just committed a peshaʾ. This among many other things such as blasphemy, idolatry, etc., and so on, were only atoneable by death or exile.

There is no such thing as a “sacrifice” for any violation of any commandment which is willfully done. If you chose to do it, there is no sacrifice. If you knew that you did it, there is no sacrifice. How difficult is this to understand?

2+2 = 5; oops, now I have to go offer either a goat, a pigeon, or a pound of flour to God in hopes that He will forgive me;

I just decapitated someone and threw the head right inside the front door of the Supreme Court, flew the birds and said “whacha gonna do?” There is no goat, no pigeon, no flour, no incense, no wine or anything else ever burned on the altar that is going to help me.

Just a side note: there was never, ever, at any time in history one single drop of blood that was ever burned on the altar, nor even touched the cooking surface. It was sprinkled on the horns of the altar, and the rest was poured out around the base of the altar. It is forbidden to eat blood, and the Kohaniym were required to eat the meat “cooked” on the altar; ergo, no blood, ever, on alter.

Each and every human being who has ever drawn a breath was born 100% absent of sin. Sin is violation of God’s commands. No one can intentionally violate any of God’s commands until they can understand what they are.

The bottom line is that each and every one of us are responsible for his/her actions, and only each and every one of us can make restitution for his/her own actions. I can’t pay for your mistakes any more than you can pay for mine. How hard is that to understand?
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
@q konn @Luca85

Part 1

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

“The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:17

But the Israelites did not want to repent, rather they wanted to sacrifice animals as a license to keep sinning, and that's why Moses commanded the Israelites to make routine sacrifices. This is why no one can be saved under the Law, because the law of sacrifice was for sinners. Those who practice routine sacrifices remain in a state of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

“And Yahweh said to Mosheh, “I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people!” Exodus 32:9

“When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. “For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.” Psalm 95:9-10

“Thus said Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’ “But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in the counsels, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.” Jeremiah 7:21-24

David and the prophets testified that God hates sacrifice.

“Then Shemu’el said, “Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of Yahweh? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

“For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

“Since Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have been altars for sinning to him. “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange. “As for My offerings: they slaughter flesh and they eat. Yahweh shall not accept them. Now does He remember their crookedness and punish their sins. Let them return to Egypt!” Hosea 8:11-13

“I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. “Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. “Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. “And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.” Amos 5:21-24

“With what shall I come before Yahweh, bow myself before the high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Is Yahweh pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my being? He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahweh require of you but to do right, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your Elohim?” Micah 6:6-8

“Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares Yahweh. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! “Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. “If you submit and obey, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword,” for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.” Isaiah 1:10-20

“But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations. “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.” Isaiah 66:3-4

“Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire; You have opened my ears; Burnt offering and sin offering You did not ask for. Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me. I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart” Psalm 40:6-8

“I do not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your pens. “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. “I know all the birds of the mountains, And all moving in My field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not speak to you; For the world is Mine, and all that fills it. “Do I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? “Offer thanksgiving to Elohim, And pay your vows to the Most High. “And call upon Me in the day of distress – Let Me rescue you, and you esteem Me.” Psalm 50:9-15

“For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

Even Christ himself was opposed to sacrifice. He quoted Hosea:

“But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.” Matthew 12:7


If you want the answer you need another question.

What was Baptism of water for, the "Baptism of John"?

It is for "Forgiveness of sin/repentance."

Which is how you are forgiven for sin.

Water, Spirit, fire.

Forgiveness, Wisdom and purification.

Vicarious atonement is the idea of one lone nut named Paul who admitted to being a liar thinking it "Abounds to God's glory."

Can you trust a guy who claimed to be educated yet said the "Law was ordained by angels?"

That'd be no.

Jesus pbuh wasn't lying when he said get Baptized for forgiveness.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
666 more messages it says, how ominous.

Actually, 666 has nothing to do with Satan. It is used to identify Nero but also Solomon in the Tanakh and his 666 gold talent tributes.

But Jesus didn't die, period.

He Ascended to Heaven alive. No death, no death for sins.

Simple stuff really.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
No, I don't have to believe it. I simply believe it and I don't know how not to.
I believe I can identify with that. I have been taught all my life that gravity makes things fall s I find it hard to believe I can levitate objects with my mind as supposedly some have been able to do.

I believe I just can't see what is in it for you. If we are right you are out of luck. If you are right it does you no good. You will go on being the sinner you have always been.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Just as Moses told God in Exodus to forgive Israel or blot our Moses name from his book, as a substitute pointing to the Messiah, Jesus died in the stead of those who would believe. In Jesus words to Nicodemus, it is like being lifted up like the bronze snake in the wilderness. Those bitten would look uo at the snake and be healed.


RC Sproul explains why atonement and propitiation matters
see What Do Expiation and Propitiation Mean?
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Just as Moses told God in Exodus to forgive Israel or blot our Moses name from his book, as a substitute pointing to the Messiah, Jesus died in the stead of those who would believe. In Jesus words to Nicodemus, it is like being lifted up like the bronze snake in the wilderness. Those bitten would look uo at the snake and be healed. RC Sproul explains why atonement and propitiation matters
see What Do Expiation and Propitiation Mean?

Jesus was a loyal Jew and, he would not have contradicted the Prophets of the Most High who are unanimous with the message that no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:4, 20) Jesus died on the charge of insurrection for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem, a Roman province at the time. Hence his verdict INRI nailed on the top of his cross by command of Pilate. (Luke 19:37-40) I am sure Pilate wanted all to see the reason why Jesus was crucified. I guess it didn't help because, even to this very day the anti-Semites prefer the slander that Jews killed Jesus, not the Romans. As I can see, Antisemitism die hard.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There are 613 Commandments as found in Torah: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Also, even many of not most Christian theologians realize that Isaiah is really not about Jesus. "Jerome's Bible Commentary" (Catholic), for example, says that Isaiah deals with people, places, and evens that took place roughly five centuries before Jesus, although they go on to say that Isaiah 53+ has a tone that "prefigures" Jesus-- iow, sets up a general paradigm that eventually reached "fulfillment" with Jesus.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Yet 'He bore the sins of us all' so Isaiah says almost 10 times in chapter 53. One for each commandment? Isaiah: 'The Song of Moses and the Lamb

As far as I am concerned, "He" is Israel aka Messiah Ben Joseph that carry the sins of Judah aka Messiah Ben David
that carried the sins of Judah into exile through the desert to Assyria aka Azazel in fulfillment of the prophecy of the Scapegoat. Please, read the thread "Messiah Ben Joseph vs Messiah Ben Judah." It is all clear in there.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
@q konn @Luca85

Part 1

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

“The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:17

But the Israelites did not want to repent, rather they wanted to sacrifice animals as a license to keep sinning, and that's why Moses commanded the Israelites to make routine sacrifices. This is why no one can be saved under the Law, because the law of sacrifice was for sinners. Those who practice routine sacrifices remain in a state of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

“And Yahweh said to Mosheh, “I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people!” Exodus 32:9

“When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. “For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.” Psalm 95:9-10

“Thus said Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’ “But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in the counsels, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.” Jeremiah 7:21-24

David and the prophets testified that God hates sacrifice.

“Then Shemu’el said, “Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of Yahweh? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

“For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

“Since Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have been altars for sinning to him. “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange. “As for My offerings: they slaughter flesh and they eat. Yahweh shall not accept them. Now does He remember their crookedness and punish their sins. Let them return to Egypt!” Hosea 8:11-13

“I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. “Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. “Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. “And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.” Amos 5:21-24

“With what shall I come before Yahweh, bow myself before the high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Is Yahweh pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my being? He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahweh require of you but to do right, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your Elohim?” Micah 6:6-8

“Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares Yahweh. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! “Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. “If you submit and obey, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword,” for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.” Isaiah 1:10-20

“But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations. “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.” Isaiah 66:3-4

“Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire; You have opened my ears; Burnt offering and sin offering You did not ask for. Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me. I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart” Psalm 40:6-8

“I do not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your pens. “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. “I know all the birds of the mountains, And all moving in My field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not speak to you; For the world is Mine, and all that fills it. “Do I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? “Offer thanksgiving to Elohim, And pay your vows to the Most High. “And call upon Me in the day of distress – Let Me rescue you, and you esteem Me.” Psalm 50:9-15

“For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

Even Christ himself was opposed to sacrifice. He quoted Hosea:

“But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.” Matthew 12:7

If Jesus was opposed to sacrifice, why is it the central theme in Christianity? Why was it necessary for a human to be sacrificed???
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If Jesus was opposed to sacrifice, why is it the central theme in Christianity? Why was it necessary for a human to be sacrificed???
IMV Jesus was not opposed to sacrifice. As to why it was necessary for The Word, Jesus, to be sacrificed, is because God is the only entity that was solvent enough to absorbed bankrupt humanity and still be solvent. It had to be as a man because God initiated from the beginning that man was the legal door for authority on earth.
 
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