circumstantial evidence to Gods existence

Thumper · Apr 18, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
Yes, a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Yes, scriptures proved to be written centuries before Christ said the Christ would be betrayed for 30 silver pieces by a close associate who would kiss him on the cheek, that He would be stripped, humiliated, beaten, deserted by friends, pierced through his hands and feet, rise from the dead to astonish his followers, etc.

You see, I've read hundreds and hundreds of Bible prophecies and their fulfillment. A Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, including dozens regarding modern Israel that YOU can verify without going back millennia, supposition, etc. A clock has "two", yes.

Using the Bible to prove the Bible. Go figure.

BilliardsBall · Apr 20, 2017

Segev Moran said:
Exactly. They had no words for it, because they were missing this knowledge.
Same as the bible describes only things that humans at that time could see or "figure out"

It is also suggested by the creation story that the earth existed before the sun...
Interesting

Then how is it that the Bible writers described other concepts and things unseen before the 20th century? They were prescient.

BilliardsBall · Apr 20, 2017

Nakosis said:
We really still don't know what gravity is. Science discovered a phenomenon which is pretty consistent. The why of gravity is still theoretical as far as I know. Hard to debate the why of something when it's why is not known for sure.

Excellent question. The design you find in the universe is the result of a low entropy system moving to a high entropy system. It's not chaos we are moving towards but order. A uniformity. In the beginning is chaos. Assuming there is no initial correlation between particles, random speeds, directions. Over the course of time particles begin to interact with each other. As more particles interact over time the correlation between particles increases.

The correlation is the result of the four fundamental forces on the universe, gravity, which you mentioned before, electromagnetic, strong and weak. Over time these forces increase the correlation between particles which eventually become recognizable patterns. The design you see is explained by entropy and these four fundamental forces.

How about the beauty I see? I see beauty, as do many or most, even when looking at faraway galaxies or other objects that are artificially magnified. The universe shows beauty, order and personality--these are better words, I think, then design.

BilliardsBall · Apr 20, 2017

Nakosis said:
I'm not a biblical scholar. However I've spoken with Jews, who seem to know much more then I about the Tanakh. They I that say the parts of the OT need to be taken out of context in order to be used to explain the prophecy of Christ. From what I've read, and this was a while ago, I was pretty much convinced that the Messiah prophesied in the OT was not the Christ of the NT. From what I've seen Mathew made a great effort to make this correlation between the two, no doubt and I guess if you accept the truth of the gospels without question then I suppose there in no reason for you to doubt that correlation.

I don't know the authors of Mathew, Luke, John or Mark. That alone means I have no particular reason to accept/believe anything they say. Without evidence to support what they said, their words are just words. I haven't found any evidence/reason to take them at their word.

You have, that's fine for you. I just don't find any use in arguing about their claims when I lack any certainty about them in the first place.

Are you aware I'm a Jewish Christian? Most Jews says you must twist Tanakh to trust Jesus, but most Jews don't believe Tanakh is the inspired Word of God, either, just like most Gentiles, even Christians, don't believe the NT is inerrant, inspired.

I may accept the gospels now with little question--but I didn't as a Jew who knew all his Jewish family and friends would reject him for believing. I studied carefully. I also noticed you skipped over:

"...The Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, including dozens regarding modern Israel that YOU can verify without going back millennia, supposition, etc."

When I show the prophecies regarding MODERN Israel to Jews and Gentiles, they are unable to say I'm twisting any scriptures. They are forced to either trust Jesus or say it's all VERY big coincidences. What would the odds be on 40 prophecies in the Bible, SPECIFIC prophecies, coming true after 1948 AD?

BilliardsBall · Apr 20, 2017

Thumper said:
Using the Bible to prove the Bible. Go figure.

That's a little dismissive, especially since it went like this:

1. The Bible makes extraordinary claims about future telling which beg the question.

2. I looked at prophecies made millennia ago regarding MODERN events.

3. I researched the modern events.

Is that the Bible proving the Bible or circular?

Nakosis · Apr 20, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
Are you aware I'm a Jewish Christian? Most Jews says you must twist Tanakh to trust Jesus, but most Jews don't believe Tanakh is the inspired Word of God, either, just like most Gentiles, even Christians, don't believe the NT is inerrant, inspired.

Yes, you've made it clear. But a Jew is not a race so I not sure why this would make a difference. And, there are those Christian who see themselves as spiritual Jews. My grandfather was Ashkenazi, he died before I was born and I was raised a Christian but I don't see ethnic identity as deserving of any special recognition.

I may accept the gospels now with little question--but I didn't as a Jew who knew all his Jewish family and friends would reject him for believing. I studied carefully. I also noticed you skipped over:

"...The Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, including dozens regarding modern Israel that YOU can verify without going back millennia, supposition, etc."

Looking into a few, they've seems to require an unorthodox interpretation so I'm not arguing they could be interpreted as such. However without affording some special meaning to the words there in, I don't find this to be true.

When I show the prophecies regarding MODERN Israel to Jews and Gentiles, they are unable to say I'm twisting any scriptures. They are forced to either trust Jesus or say it's all VERY big coincidences. What would the odds be on 40 prophecies in the Bible, SPECIFIC prophecies, coming true after 1948 AD?

If you have a resource for this, I'll look into it but it wouldn't be the first time.

Nakosis · Apr 20, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
How about the beauty I see? I see beauty, as do many or most, even when looking at faraway galaxies or other objects that are artificially magnified. The universe shows beauty, order and personality--these are better words, I think, then design.

Sure I understand that. I'm just not ready to say this required a deity to exist.

Segev Moran · Apr 20, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
Then how is it that the Bible writers described other concepts and things unseen before the 20th century? They were prescient.

How is it that people on 1900 predicted what things will be on 2010?
How is it that de vinci had ideas that rely on technological ideas way a head of his time?

Why would you accept everything as un-debatable truth, if you know for a fact that a great part of it is wrong?
how can you distinguish between the truth and the tale?
Wouldn't you say that the more you know about our universe, the less things in the scriptures (any of them almost) are found to be possible or correct?

Thumper · Apr 21, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
How about the beauty I see? I see beauty, as do many or most, even when looking at faraway galaxies or other objects that are artificially magnified. The universe shows beauty, order and personality--these are better words, I think, then design.

“It is sometimes said that scientists are unromantic, that their passion to figure out robs the world of beauty and mystery. But is it not stirring to understand how the world actually works — that white light is made of colors, that color is the way we perceive the wavelengths of light, that transparent air reflects light, that in so doing it discriminates among the waves, and that the sky is blue for the same reason that the sunset is red? It does no harm to the romance of the sunset to know a little bit about it.” ~ Carl Sagan

BilliardsBall · Apr 24, 2017

Nakosis said:
Yes, you've made it clear. But a Jew is not a race so I not sure why this would make a difference. And, there are those Christian who see themselves as spiritual Jews. My grandfather was Ashkenazi, he died before I was born and I was raised a Christian but I don't see ethnic identity as deserving of any special recognition.

Looking into a few, they've seems to require an unorthodox interpretation so I'm not arguing they could be interpreted as such. However without affording some special meaning to the words there in, I don't find this to be true.

If you have a resource for this, I'll look into it but it wouldn't be the first time.

What interpretation system do you find orthodox, so that the interpretations (Israel will be scattered to many nations, persecuted in each of those nations, form a new Jewish State, this new State will be surrounded by enemies, etc.) come out to you as unorthodox?

BilliardsBall · Apr 24, 2017

Nakosis said:
Sure I understand that. I'm just not ready to say this required a deity to exist.

When the universe shows beauty or personality, does that make it less likely that is was intelligently created or more likely?

BilliardsBall · Apr 24, 2017

Segev Moran said:
How is it that people on 1900 predicted what things will be on 2010?
How is it that de vinci had ideas that rely on technological ideas way a head of his time?

Why would you accept everything as un-debatable truth, if you know for a fact that a great part of it is wrong?
how can you distinguish between the truth and the tale?
Wouldn't you say that the more you know about our universe, the less things in the scriptures (any of them almost) are found to be possible or correct?

You are speaking in generalities. If someone in 1750 predicted that in the spring of 1948, Jewish people would reestablish a Jewish state, be surrounded by enemies, be hated without good reason, and be the intelligentsia of the planet I would take notice.

BilliardsBall · Apr 24, 2017

Thumper said:
“It is sometimes said that scientists are unromantic, that their passion to figure out robs the world of beauty and mystery. But is it not stirring to understand how the world actually works — that white light is made of colors, that color is the way we perceive the wavelengths of light, that transparent air reflects light, that in so doing it discriminates among the waves, and that the sky is blue for the same reason that the sunset is red? It does no harm to the romance of the sunset to know a little bit about it.” ~ Carl Sagan

Okay, from where did you derive the capacity to appreciate beauty? In a mate would be evolutionary in origin. What about the beauty of the sky? Distraction from hunting/gathering, don't you think?

Nakosis · Apr 24, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
What interpretation system do you find orthodox, so that the interpretations (Israel will be scattered to many nations, persecuted in each of those nations, form a new Jewish State, this new State will be surrounded by enemies, etc.) come out to you as unorthodox?

This is just FYI. I don't expect it to convince you of anything.
Why don't atheists find Biblical prophecy convincing?

Nakosis · Apr 24, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
When the universe shows beauty or personality, does that make it less likely that is was intelligently created or more likely?

Kind of a loaded question as generally "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

These drawings were all created by a mechanical process. No intelligence necessary.
Not all design requires intelligence.
Not all beauty requires intelligent design.

Segev Moran · Apr 24, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
You are speaking in generalities. If someone in 1750 predicted that in the spring of 1948, Jewish people would reestablish a Jewish state, be surrounded by enemies, be hated without good reason, and be the intelligentsia of the planet I would take notice.

Lets put your statement to the test a logical logical explanation to such a prophecy:

This same man from the 1750 will devote his life to the belief his prophecy is true. he will convince people that the creator of the universe himself promised him that this prediction is true.
Than, while following this belief, many people will start an army to fight anyone who claims this prophecy is false.
Those man will gladly sacrifice their life to deliver this prophecy, and will teach there generations that this is the one true prophecy.

Does this really seem a divine intervention must be present in order for such a prediction to come true?

BTW, what is intelligentsia of the planet?

BilliardsBall · Apr 25, 2017

Nakosis said:
This is just FYI. I don't expect it to convince you of anything.
Why don't atheists find Biblical prophecy convincing?

Thanks for sharing the interesting link. From that site:

"First, there's a logical disconnect. Suppose it were true that the Bible did accurately forecast future events. How does that demonstrate a god? Why not time travelers, aliens, or the simple ability of a person to see into the future, as a magical power? From our perspective, the theist has simply chosen the preferred conclusion out of many possibilities."

Of course I've considered this at length. The alien beings apparently demonstrated their knowledge out of timespace so that we would trust in the Christ for salvation, too! Possibility--Christianity was invented to try to stop man from destroying the planet, by aliens. But still!

"Like the horoscope, if the claims are broad or vague enough, we can fit them to any number of events. If I were to predict, "At the beginning of the third millennium, a nation will fall", is that compelling?

You already know that nations rise and fall frequently, so we are not exactly going out on a limb."

The Jewish people were predicted to:

*Be scattered to many nations where they would be

*The intelligentsia and cream of those nations, advancing them, and further

*Hated and persecuted in EACH and all of those nations for 2,520 360-day Bible years between a diaspora caused by Babylon, before they would form a Jewish state to the day, 907,200 days later PRECISELY

*Etc.

Broad or specific? Fulfilled or remaining to be fulfilled, still? You judge.

BilliardsBall · Apr 25, 2017

Nakosis said:
Kind of a loaded question as generally "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

View attachment 16908
These drawings were all created by a mechanical process. No intelligence necessary.
Not all design requires intelligence.
Not all beauty requires intelligent design.

Your drawings were created by a mechanical process set in motion and designed by a creator. The chain always comes, including the whole universe, to a creator.

BilliardsBall · Apr 25, 2017

Nakosis said:
Kind of a loaded question as generally "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

View attachment 16908
These drawings were all created by a mechanical process. No intelligence necessary.
Not all design requires intelligence.
Not all beauty requires intelligent design.

You might also consider why we find the mechanistic and natural processes, such as the one you cited above, lovely.

BilliardsBall · Apr 25, 2017

Segev Moran said:
Lets put your statement to the test a logical logical explanation to such a prophecy:

This same man from the 1750 will devote his life to the belief his prophecy is true. he will convince people that the creator of the universe himself promised him that this prediction is true.
Than, while following this belief, many people will start an army to fight anyone who claims this prophecy is false.
Those man will gladly sacrifice their life to deliver this prophecy, and will teach there generations that this is the one true prophecy.

Does this really seem a divine intervention must be present in order for such a prediction to come true?

BTW, what is intelligentsia of the planet?

Pardon me, but all that you said may be true except why and how did the Jewish people make people rape, hate, kill and persecute them in 100 nations for over two millennia?! What are you saying here?

circumstantial evidence to Gods existence

Thank the gods I'm an atheist

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

Non-Binary Physicalist

Well-Known Member

Thank the gods I'm an atheist

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

Non-Binary Physicalist

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member