-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Fire in Heaven
- Thread starter Fool
- Start date
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
That is kind of interesting.
Do you think god is evil?
Do you think god is evil?
One can be angry and still loving; especially where injustice is involved.
Divers weights and measures are an abomination to the Lord. Love is not a respecter of persons.
aspects of fire can also be raging, engulfing, providing warmth.
it can have both negative and positive aspects, somewhat like shiva
From what I can see the glassy sea mingled with fire are those who are symbolically standing victorious.
Apparently that symbolic glassy sea is the same one that John saw earlier at Revelation 4:6.
( Similar it seems to me to the molten sea ( that water container ) of Solomon's temple where the priests got water to cleanse themselves according to 1 Kings 7:23. To me that makes it a representation of the ' bath of water ' ( God's Word ) which by means of Jesus spiritually cleanses today - Ephesians 5:25-26; Hebrews 10:22.
So, in my view, the water or glassy sea mingled with fire shows there are those Christians who are tested and purged when obeying God's standards ( Job and Jesus for example 'fiery' tests ) .
God's Word ( Scripture) also contains fiery judgements messages against enemies who are going to either be cleansed or destroyed - 2nd Peter 3:9. Man's only hope for peace is Psalms 92:7 the destruction of the wicked.
fire and water are necessary to temper steel.
your post reminds me of the initial spirit(fire) moving upon the waters in genesis and likened to a pillar of a cloud or fire in exodus.
again similar to rev 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
again
2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
the seraphim, cherubim and ophan are considered fiery spirits.
like the cherubim that guard the eastern gate to the garden of eden
Last edited:
Have you ever done something wrong to someone and he didn't know about it? When you meet him, he's nice and pleasant. You want to get away. Ever get that burning feeling?
The expression "hot and bothered" probably has a lot to do with feeling guilty when you know others are innocent and you're guilty but don't want to admit it.
Actually the flames in Hell are the Sacred Flames of Love. They are burning away errors that people are trying to hang onto. Yes, even hellfire is an expression of the Love of God. When we resist love, we experience it as painful.
The expression "hot and bothered" probably has a lot to do with feeling guilty when you know others are innocent and you're guilty but don't want to admit it.
Actually the flames in Hell are the Sacred Flames of Love. They are burning away errors that people are trying to hang onto. Yes, even hellfire is an expression of the Love of God. When we resist love, we experience it as painful.
Interesting to connect fire and water necessary to temper steel.
Could Job and Jesus be in the 'tempering steel' category.
Satan challenges all of us at Job 2:4-5 to touch our ' flesh ' (Loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus ended up like tempered steel, so to speak, and so can we.
In my view, first, the words hell and hellfire are English words, and Not in original Scripture because KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire. Gehenna was just a grabage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever and Not kept burning forever.
So, there is biblcal hell, and a non-biblical hell teaching just taught as Scripture but Not being Scripture.
Non-biblical hell is the forever permanent burning hell of religious-myth teachings taught as Scripture.
Whereas, biblical hell is just mankind's temporary grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection day.
So, the day Jesus' died Jesus went to mankind's grave for the sleeping dead or biblical hell ( Acts 2:27 )
Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures both teach unconscious sleep in death:
- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5
The word Gehinnom/Gehenna meant more than one thing. The word is still used by Jews to mean a spiritual place of purification. They also still use the word "Garden" to mean Paradise. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews using the language of the day.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Indeed, Jesus did subscribe to the traditional Jewish concepts. He even quoted from the Talmud a few times -- it hadn't been written down completely then, but it got written down later. Here's one case -- you doubtlessly know what Jesus said so I'll cite only the Talmud, Sanhedrin 100b.
Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 100
Surely the measure of reward is greater than that of punishment, for with respect to the measure of goodness it is written, And he commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, And rained down manna upon them to eat;1 whilst of the measure of punishment it is written, And the windows of heaven were opened.2 Yet, in respect of the measure even of punishment it is written, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.3 But if one puts his fingers into the fire in this world, it is immediately burnt!4 — But just as the Holy One, blessed be He, gives the wicked the strength to receive punishment, so does he give the righteous the capacity to receive reward.
Jesus also seemed to agree with R. Johanan for the most part when he depicted Lazarus with Abraham on one side and the rich man in Gehinnom on the other. The Rabbis in the Talmud taught the two are very, very close to each other.
PARADISE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
There are a nether Gehinnom and an upper one, over against the nether and the upper Gan 'Eden. Curiously enough, hell and paradise join each other. R. Johanan claims that a partition of only a hand-breadth, or four inches wide, separates them. The Rabbis say the width is but two fingers (= inches; Midr. Ḳohelet; Yalḳ., 976).
I hope to have time to comment on the other parts of your post soon.
could the difference between paradise(heaven) and hell be the difference between being within gan-eden vs being outside of gan-eden?
I think many people think paradise is just another word for heaven.
Adam and Eve were never in heaven, but in the paradisical Garden of Eden on Earth.
The day that Jesus' died Jesus did Not go to heaven.
The day that Jesus' died Jesus went to hell ( biblical hell the grave ) - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
If Jesus was already in heaven then there would have been No need for God to resurrect Jesus out of hell/grave.
When Adam and Eve sinned they were put out of the Garden, but still remained on Earth.
Before sinning they were offered everlasting life (Not in heaven ) but to live forever on Earth.
The majority of mankind is offered that the meek will inherit the "Earth" according to Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:10-11
Not inherit a polluted Earth, but inherit a beautiful paradisical Earth as Isaiah 35 describes.
Jesus came from heaven to us. Jesus promise is only for some to be in heaven with him.
They have a first or earlier resurrection than the rest or majority of mankind - Revelation 20:6
Those in heaven have two (2) jobs to do according to Revelation 5:9-10 to serve mankind on Earth.
Serve the majority of mankind living forever on Earth.
So to me, the difference is: some go to heaven, most remain on Earth, the wicked destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
The Jews were in Babylonian captivity for 70 years exposed to their non-biblical ways.
In Jesus' day there were un-faithful Jews in Jerusalem who were killed by the Roman armies in the year 70.
When un-faithful Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their religious theories or philosophies.
What then began to be taught as Scripture was really Not Scripture. Not what the Bible really teaches.
In Scripture, paradise was Eden on Earth. Biblical hell just the temporary grave for sleeping dead mankind.
Heaven is God's home location, and in Scripture heaven is also used to represent governmental authorities.
As they can Lord it over people as the heavens are above us.
heaven is a place on earth too, just as paradise is a place in heaven. case in point, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. earth resides within heaven and cannot be separate from it, anymore than we can be separate from god.
I see the difference as being self-imposed. In a way, we place ourselves in these places ourselves.
The rich man in "hell" was continuing to be selfish. He wanted Lazarus to enter the flames with a little water. In other words, he wanted someone else to suffer to bring him a little temporary comfort. That was his idea. Still wrapped up in his own little world. He was thinking about his relatives -- again how fair is that? Abraham or God should suspend all the rules just to help his family members? Why, because he, a selfish person, was concerned over family ties? What about all the other people in the world?
In a way, you could even say we are already in one or the other. The kingdom of Heaven is "in" or "among" you. Similarly some people are already in hell, busy creating it for themselves and others. The difference seems to be that when we have physical bodies, they draw us back to the purely physical. When the body no longer operates, it can no longer act as an anchor the same way.
It also seems that the first thing that goes wrong is allowing angry words to come out -- the Cain did. Murder followed. If he had stopped throwing angry words around, he wouldn't have gone on to murder Abel. So the "tongue" can be a dangerous thing -- setting other things on fire spiritually.
James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
The person who is creating hell for himself could be called a "child of hell." I think such a person can be saved, but not as long as he continues to burn inside and is creating his own hell and trying to get others to burn in hell too.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
If someone delights in the idea of others burning in hell or being punished, wishing evil on them, what kind of person is he? It seems correct that he would find himself in hell.
Proverbs 26:27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.
Then there is the "burning of love" that is gentle and non-threatening. I think it's the same substance -- spiritual fire -- but with different intention. When we feel warm inside, those are the Sacred Flames telling us things are going right. If we keep those flames, the Flames of Love, alive, they will purify all things.
Let me comment now on the Lake of Fire as shown in the book of Revelation. It does not say the Lake of Fire is there now. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But at the end of the Thousand Year Reign, when souls are judged, we see that all those whose names are not in the Book of Life are thrown into it. We cannot say the Lake of Fire is the same things as "hell" since we are told hell is also thrown into it.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is a list of who these people are later:
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Some people may conclude from that those people are left to burn eternally in the Lake of Fire; but read on. They are shown later outside the Holy City.
Revelation 22:
4 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
They are not burning eternally in the Lake of Fire; but time has run out for them to complete themselves spiritually. Their vices were burned away in the fire; but they no longer have the ability to "grow" virtues. They are left incomplete and imperfect spiritually and may not enter the Holy City. The Sacred Flames burned away their errors, and that is a good thing; but they still find themselves in an unfortunate state. We ought not believe then in people burning eternally in hell fire, not if hell itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire and done away with and not if these people are shown not in the Lake of Fire but outside the Holy City. The good thing about this is that these people who once were children of hell will have their errors burned away, so they will no longer be causing trouble for other people -- trying to turn others into children of hell.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
I believe Michael is the angel of fire.
Repox
Truth Seeker
It may be easy to mix up holy light and fire. Whereas holy light is warm but not destructive, fire is hot and destructive. Both holy light and fire give light, but are different. Colors are different, God's sparks of light are pure white, embers of fire have yellowish colors, or a range of colors from bright white to yellowish depending on the intensity of the fire. God's holy sparks are eternal, or without ending, fire embers destroy and are therefore finite. Heaven is full God's holy light, a forest fire is full of destructive fire. An angel appears as a holy bright white light. In heaven, we see holy white light in all directions. Everything in heaven glistens with God's holy light.
Bright holy angel Michael is God's General in charge of wars with Satan, God's rebellious angel.
Bright holy angel Michael is God's General in charge of wars with Satan, God's rebellious angel.
Last edited:
Personally, I think heaven and hell are states of mind and the difference is service to all as self vs service solely to self and disparity towards other selves.
Jesus said, "He who wishes to be greatest, must be servant to all."
As you noted, the richman consistently thought of "himself", "his" family, "his" vs others. The division between him and abraham and lazarus was created by himself in making the difference.
The lake of fire is a purifying scenario; which removes the attachments of the earthly experience. Can be related to the same situation expressed in Zechariah 13:9
And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’
and again
malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
and again
isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
and again
deut 4:20
But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as you are this day.
Jesus came after the Babylonian captivity. And when Jesus quotes the Talmud, I tend to give the Talmud or Oral Torah credence. Paul also commended the Talmud saying the Jews had the advantage of having the "oracles" -- oracles meaning something oral.
I'd say the real confusion entered the picture when spiritually blind Bishops began persecuting Jews and saying anything Jewish had to be wrong. They threw the baby out with the bathwater. Confusion ensued. Catholics resorted to the idea of Purgatory -- the Orthodox Church did not. That tells me something. They also fought over what day to celebrate Easter on.
You can say this; but it does not change how Jews in the time of Jesus used those words. And I would assume, frankly, that when Jesus was talking to them, he would use words the way they used them.
You are also assuming that Eden was a physical place. I would not assume that. And if Paradise/Eden was on the earth, you create a problem with what Jesus told the thief, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." The manuscripts are in Greek, of course, and read paradeisos which is Greek for garden.
We also ought to confuse Paradise or the Garden with the Heaven of Heavens. There are three regions which can be called heaven, but Paradise is not the highest Heaven. Thus we should not say the thief went to Heaven -- and neither did Jesus, not that day anyway. He told Mary a few days later he had not gone to the Father. No, but he went to Paradise.
As for the theory that hell is only the temporary grave for sleeping dead mankind, I don't see how that can be true if we consider what Paul said. We are reading what he wrote to others. He was not writing to the generation we are in. He told the people at Corinth this:
I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Did they all sleep? If sleep means the death of the physical body, then they all slept and what Paul wrote was not true. Some do fall asleep when their bodies die. That is true. Others do not.
And if you really think that the Jews of Jesus day were so confused, I ask you to explain two passages:
We are given this description about the last days by the prophet:
Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Not Christians. And then the words of Jesus:
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
This remains true. As I said earlier, the real confusion came when Christianity began rejecting anything and everything Jewish; and that included the Jewish concept of One God. Then they began fighting among themselves about the new Trinity that they had invented. They persecuted each other, and one of the major points of division between Catholic and Orthodox is over this. I say they're both confused. God is One. Anyone can know that God is One even if they don't give God a name. Paul said:
Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Yes, even a pagan poet could know something. God is One. The Jews know it. You have said the Jews in Jesus' time taught things the Bible does not say. I wonder if perhaps the people who taught you what you believe are guilty of this?
Do you know, for example, what the Jews teach about Samuel and the witch of Endor? I think I know part of what you believe. You'd probably say Samuel was asleep. I ask you if you think the Dark Side can wake the sleeping before the appointed Resurrection? And what about the people who came out of their graves described in Matthew?