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That is kind of interesting.
Do you think god is evil?
Fire is a symbol not only of destruction, but purification and recreation.
Baptism of fire, for instance.
Metaphor after metaphor.
Fire is usually associated with Hades, or Hell. Why then does it appear in heaven and issued from God as related in the book of revelation?
Why is God a consuming fire? Deut 4:24
How is it that some seem to walk upon the lake of fire? Rev 15:2
fire and water are necessary to temper steel.From what I can see the glassy sea mingled with fire are those who are symbolically standing victorious.
Apparently that symbolic glassy sea is the same one that John saw earlier at Revelation 4:6.
( Similar it seems to me to the molten sea ( that water container ) of Solomon's temple where the priests got water to cleanse themselves according to 1 Kings 7:23. To me that makes it a representation of the ' bath of water ' ( God's Word ) which by means of Jesus spiritually cleanses today - Ephesians 5:25-26; Hebrews 10:22.
So, in my view, the water or glassy sea mingled with fire shows there are those Christians who are tested and purged when obeying God's standards ( Job and Jesus for example 'fiery' tests ) .
God's Word ( Scripture) also contains fiery judgements messages against enemies who are going to either be cleansed or destroyed - 2nd Peter 3:9. Man's only hope for peace is Psalms 92:7 the destruction of the wicked.
fire and water are necessary to temper steel.
your post reminds me of the initial spirit(fire) moving upon the waters in genesis and likened to a pillar of a cloud or fire in exodus.
again similar to rev 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
again
2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
the seraphim, cherubim and ophan are considered fiery spirits.
like the cherubim that guard the eastern gate to the garden of eden
...........
Actually the flames in Hell are the Sacred Flames of Love. They are burning away errors that people are trying to hang onto. Yes, even hellfire is an expression of the Love of God. When we resist love, we experience it as painful.
The word Gehinnom/Gehenna meant more than one thing. The word is still used by Jews to mean a spiritual place of purification. They also still use the word "Garden" to mean Paradise. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews using the language of the day.In my view, first, the words hell and hellfire are English words, and Not in original Scripture because KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire. Gehenna was just a grabage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever and Not kept burning forever.
So, there is biblcal hell, and a non-biblical hell teaching just taught as Scripture but Not being Scripture.
Non-biblical hell is the forever permanent burning hell of religious-myth teachings taught as Scripture.
Whereas, biblical hell is just mankind's temporary grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection day.
So, the day Jesus' died Jesus went to mankind's grave for the sleeping dead or biblical hell ( Acts 2:27 )
Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures both teach unconscious sleep in death:
- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5
The word Gehinnom/Gehenna meant more than one thing. The word is still used by Jews to mean a spiritual place of purification. They also still use the word "Garden" to mean Paradise. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews using the language of the day.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Indeed, Jesus did subscribe to the traditional Jewish concepts. He even quoted from the Talmud a few times -- it hadn't been written down completely then, but it got written down later. Here's one case -- you doubtlessly know what Jesus said so I'll cite only the Talmud, Sanhedrin 100b.
Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 100
Surely the measure of reward is greater than that of punishment, for with respect to the measure of goodness it is written, And he commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, And rained down manna upon them to eat;1 whilst of the measure of punishment it is written, And the windows of heaven were opened.2 Yet, in respect of the measure even of punishment it is written, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.3 But if one puts his fingers into the fire in this world, it is immediately burnt!4 — But just as the Holy One, blessed be He, gives the wicked the strength to receive punishment, so does he give the righteous the capacity to receive reward.
Jesus also seemed to agree with R. Johanan for the most part when he depicted Lazarus with Abraham on one side and the rich man in Gehinnom on the other. The Rabbis in the Talmud taught the two are very, very close to each other.
PARADISE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
There are a nether Gehinnom and an upper one, over against the nether and the upper Gan 'Eden. Curiously enough, hell and paradise join each other. R. Johanan claims that a partition of only a hand-breadth, or four inches wide, separates them. The Rabbis say the width is but two fingers (= inches; Midr. Ḳohelet; Yalḳ., 976).
I hope to have time to comment on the other parts of your post soon.
could the difference between paradise(heaven) and hell be the difference between being within gan-eden vs being outside of gan-eden?
The word Gehinnom/Gehenna meant more than one thing. The word is still used by Jews to mean a spiritual place of purification. They also still use the word "Garden" to mean Paradise. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews using the language of the day.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Indeed, Jesus did subscribe to the traditional Jewish concepts. He even quoted from the Talmud a few times -- it hadn't been written down completely then, but it got written down later. Here's one case -- you doubtlessly know what Jesus said so I'll cite only the Talmud, Sanhedrin 100b.
Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 100
Surely the measure of reward is greater than that of punishment, for with respect to the measure of goodness it is written, And he commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, And rained down manna upon them to eat;1 whilst of the measure of punishment it is written, And the windows of heaven were opened.2 Yet, in respect of the measure even of punishment it is written, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.3 But if one puts his fingers into the fire in this world, it is immediately burnt!4 — But just as the Holy One, blessed be He, gives the wicked the strength to receive punishment, so does he give the righteous the capacity to receive reward.
Jesus also seemed to agree with R. Johanan for the most part when he depicted Lazarus with Abraham on one side and the rich man in Gehinnom on the other. The Rabbis in the Talmud taught the two are very, very close to each other.
PARADISE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
There are a nether Gehinnom and an upper one, over against the nether and the upper Gan 'Eden. Curiously enough, hell and paradise join each other. R. Johanan claims that a partition of only a hand-breadth, or four inches wide, separates them. The Rabbis say the width is but two fingers (= inches; Midr. Ḳohelet; Yalḳ., 976).
I hope to have time to comment on the other parts of your post soon.
heaven is a place on earth too, just as paradise is a place in heaven. case in point, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. earth resides within heaven and cannot be separate from it, anymore than we can be separate from god.I think many people think paradise is just another word for heaven.
Adam and Eve were never in heaven, but in the paradisical Garden of Eden on Earth.
The day that Jesus' died Jesus did Not go to heaven.
The day that Jesus' died Jesus went to hell ( biblical hell the grave ) - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
If Jesus was already in heaven then there would have been No need for God to resurrect Jesus out of hell/grave.
When Adam and Eve sinned they were put out of the Garden, but still remained on Earth.
Before sinning they were offered everlasting life (Not in heaven ) but to live forever on Earth.
The majority of mankind is offered that the meek will inherit the "Earth" according to Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:10-11
Not inherit a polluted Earth, but inherit a beautiful paradisical Earth as Isaiah 35 describes.
Jesus came from heaven to us. Jesus promise is only for some to be in heaven with him.
They have a first or earlier resurrection than the rest or majority of mankind - Revelation 20:6
Those in heaven have two (2) jobs to do according to Revelation 5:9-10 to serve mankind on Earth.
Serve the majority of mankind living forever on Earth.
So to me, the difference is: some go to heaven, most remain on Earth, the wicked destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
I see the difference as being self-imposed. In a way, we place ourselves in these places ourselves.could the difference between paradise(heaven) and hell be the difference between being within gan-eden vs being outside of gan-eden?
I see the difference as being self-imposed. In a way, we place ourselves in these places ourselves.
The rich man in "hell" was continuing to be selfish. He wanted Lazarus to enter the flames with a little water. In other words, he wanted someone else to suffer to bring him a little temporary comfort. That was his idea. Still wrapped up in his own little world. He was thinking about his relatives -- again how fair is that? Abraham or God should suspend all the rules just to help his family members? Why, because he, a selfish person, was concerned over family ties? What about all the other people in the world?
In a way, you could even say we are already in one or the other. The kingdom of Heaven is "in" or "among" you. Similarly some people are already in hell, busy creating it for themselves and others. The difference seems to be that when we have physical bodies, they draw us back to the purely physical. When the body no longer operates, it can no longer act as an anchor the same way.
It also seems that the first thing that goes wrong is allowing angry words to come out -- the Cain did. Murder followed. If he had stopped throwing angry words around, he wouldn't have gone on to murder Abel. So the "tongue" can be a dangerous thing -- setting other things on fire spiritually.
James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
The person who is creating hell for himself could be called a "child of hell." I think such a person can be saved, but not as long as he continues to burn inside and is creating his own hell and trying to get others to burn in hell too.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
If someone delights in the idea of others burning in hell or being punished, wishing evil on them, what kind of person is he? It seems correct that he would find himself in hell.
Proverbs 26:27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.
Then there is the "burning of love" that is gentle and non-threatening. I think it's the same substance -- spiritual fire -- but with different intention. When we feel warm inside, those are the Sacred Flames telling us things are going right. If we keep those flames, the Flames of Love, alive, they will purify all things.
Let me comment now on the Lake of Fire as shown in the book of Revelation. It does not say the Lake of Fire is there now. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But at the end of the Thousand Year Reign, when souls are judged, we see that all those whose names are not in the Book of Life are thrown into it. We cannot say the Lake of Fire is the same things as "hell" since we are told hell is also thrown into it.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is a list of who these people are later:
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Some people may conclude from that those people are left to burn eternally in the Lake of Fire; but read on. They are shown later outside the Holy City.
Revelation 22:
4 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
They are not burning eternally in the Lake of Fire; but time has run out for them to complete themselves spiritually. Their vices were burned away in the fire; but they no longer have the ability to "grow" virtues. They are left incomplete and imperfect spiritually and may not enter the Holy City. The Sacred Flames burned away their errors, and that is a good thing; but they still find themselves in an unfortunate state. We ought not believe then in people burning eternally in hell fire, not if hell itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire and done away with and not if these people are shown not in the Lake of Fire but outside the Holy City. The good thing about this is that these people who once were children of hell will have their errors burned away, so they will no longer be causing trouble for other people -- trying to turn others into children of hell.
Jesus came after the Babylonian captivity. And when Jesus quotes the Talmud, I tend to give the Talmud or Oral Torah credence. Paul also commended the Talmud saying the Jews had the advantage of having the "oracles" -- oracles meaning something oral.The Jews were in Babylonian captivity for 70 years exposed to their non-biblical ways.
In Jesus' day there were un-faithful Jews in Jerusalem who were killed by the Roman armies in the year 70.
When un-faithful Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their religious theories or philosophies.
What then began to be taught as Scripture was really Not Scripture. Not what the Bible really teaches.
You can say this; but it does not change how Jews in the time of Jesus used those words. And I would assume, frankly, that when Jesus was talking to them, he would use words the way they used them.In Scripture, paradise was Eden on Earth. Biblical hell just the temporary grave for sleeping dead mankind.
Heaven is God's home location, and in Scripture heaven is also used to represent governmental authorities.
As they can Lord it over people as the heavens are above us.