why was the tree in the garden?

mr.guy · Jul 4, 2006

Despite all of this, humanity will absolutely not fail. Our success is guaranteed.

Perhaps you speak of a new, unheard of form of success previously undiscovered;
or maybe it's assurance is base unfulfillment to begin with.

Smoke · Jul 4, 2006

Ðanisty said:
You've explained this a lot, haven't you? :clap

I have.

Smoke · Jul 4, 2006

Katzpur said:
The serpent told a half-truth, which is entirely typical of the way in which He works.

The serpent said: Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And that's exactly what happened. They didn't die, but "the eyes of them both were opened," and -- according to God -- "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."

Katzpur said:
I must have missed the part about where God lied. What did He say that was a lie?

According to Eve, God had told them, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Yet they did not die; in fact, God expresses concern that they may become immortal: "Now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden."

Katzpur said:
He reacted by doing exactly what He'd said He was going to do.

The scripture doesn't tell us that he had said he was going to do anything.

Eve says God told them they'd die if they ate it. That wasn't true. There's no hint anywhere that God had threatened them with the curses he bestowed on them.

Katzpur said:
If He had releted and given Adam and Eve a second chance, now that would have been "acting badly."

Why do you think so? Have your children ever disobeyed you? Did you ever give them a second chance?

Katzpur · Jul 4, 2006

MidnightBlue said:
The serpent said: Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And that's exactly what happened. They didn't die, but "the eyes of them both were opened," and -- according to God -- "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."

According to Eve, God had told them, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Yet they did not die; in fact, God expresses concern that they may become immortal: "Now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden."

The scripture doesn't tell us that he had said he was going to do anything.

Eve says God told them they'd die if they ate it. That wasn't true. There's no hint anywhere that God had threatened them with the curses he bestowed on them.

Okay, I see where you are coming from. My belief is that when they ate the forbidden fruit they became subject to death, not that they would drop dead on the spot. I don't believe they were subject to death before eating the forbidden fruit, but I don't believe they could have fulfilled the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth either. (That doctrine is not in the Bible, by the way, so don't bother looking for it.) At any rate, I believe God expected things to unfold exactly as they did. Adam and Eve knew before hand that eating the forbidden fruit would mark the end of their immortal state. By casting them out of the Garden and making them subject to death, God was merely enforcing the rule He had made.

Why do you think so? Have your children ever disobeyed you? Did you ever give them a second chance?

Maybe I should have phrased this differently. As I just said, God told them before they ate the fruit what the consequences of doing so would be. I just don't understand "dying" as being an immediate consequence of their disobedience. Death, however, would have been permanent had God not given them the opportunity to repent and to be obedient in the future. The fact that He would later provide a Savior for them in the person of Jesus Christ was a more gracious "second chance" than any He could possibly have given them.

I really should explain that the Latter-day Saint understanding of the Fall of Adam is really a lot more comprehensive than is described in Genesis, so it won't do anybody a lot of good to say, "Where does the Bible say that?" My answer would be, "It doesn't. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen."

Smoke · Jul 4, 2006

Katzpur said:
I really should explain that the Latter-day Saint understanding of the Fall of Adam is really a lot more comprehensive than is described in Genesis, so it won't do anybody a lot of good to say, "Where does the Bible say that?" My answer would be, "It doesn't. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen."

In my view, that's the difference between an old myth and a new myth. Maybe you see both as one and as literal. But I'd be interested to hear your understanding, extrabiblical or not.

cardero · Jul 4, 2006

FFH said:
There must be a possibility of wrong choice, or an opposition in all things, in order for man to tested, to see if we would rather follow God's commands or Satan's voice. Our integrity must be tested.

Integrity and obedience, if one must, can be tested. Love on the other hand, well.....
I also have a feeling that this thread is going to lead to the inevitable question of Universal Sovereignty.

Katzpur · Jul 4, 2006

MidnightBlue said:
In my view, that's the difference between an old myth and a new myth. Maybe you see both as one and as literal. But I'd be interested to hear your understanding, extrabiblical or not.

Tomorrow. Gotta go get my beauty rest.

EnhancedSpirit · Jul 5, 2006

A while back I came across an online book, I haven't gotten around to reading the whole thing but it looks interesting . . .

Spiritual Discovery for the 21st Century
The Knowledge of Good and Evil
by Jim Chapman

Summary of chapter themes: The Book in Brief

Mystic-als · Jul 5, 2006

The question that I think this brings to light is. If God knew Adam & Eve would eat the fruit, He also knows our choices. And most christians belive that God created us and put us in our mothers womb (with daddies help). BUT if He knows we wont choose him and we'll go to hell. Doesn't he really send us to hell by creating us?

Oh and by the way this wasn't the only time God interfeard with man because he was scared we would become like him. The Tower of Babel is another.

zombieharlot · Jul 5, 2006

mattp said:
Why set humans up with an oppurtunity to fail instead letting them eat of every tree?

I have always believed that God tempted Adam and Eve because of this.

may · Jul 5, 2006

MidnightBlue said:
But when everything is said and done: the serpent told the truth, God lied and reacted badly, and when it was all over the man and the woman were enlightened, but suffering the punishment of a jealous God.

for me, when everything is said and done , it seems that God told the truth and the serpent lied, God said that they would die if they eat the fruit , satan said that they wouldnt die, ............ it is just as romans 5;12 tells us
That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. yes Jehovah God was right and satan was a lier.
(Genesis 2:17) But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
but no worries , we can get everlasting life back again
For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. romans 6;23

may · Jul 5, 2006

cardero said:
In the Garden of Eden the concept of conflict was introduced to humankind. The original serpent does not stand for Satan, or sin, or evil. It stands for fear, doubt, and conflict. When Adam and Eve faced the choice of eating the symbolic fruit of understanding, they approached it as a conflict instead of a decision.

the name satan was given to an angel because he was in opposition to Gods purpose , satan means resister,
The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. and we can see that he was in opposition to God, he directly said the opposite to God, God said they would die if they eat the fruit , satan said the opposite, he said they would not die. yes he is an opposer

angellous_evangellous · Jul 5, 2006

MidnightBlue said:
Exactly. I think this is just how the creators of the myth viewed it.

Sarcasm?

sojourner · Jul 5, 2006

mattp said:
Why set humans up with an oppurtunity to fail instead letting them eat of every tree?

In order to also set us up with an opportunity to succeed.

sojourner · Jul 5, 2006

Katzpur said:
God wanted Adam and Eve to be able to experience both good and evil. Being able to discern between the two and choose the right when confronted with a decision is part of progressing. Had they remained in Eden forever, they would have been unable to progress. What they did, did not thwart His plan; it set that plan on the road to fulfillment.

I don't believe that for one minute. What God wanted Adam and Eve to have was choice -- hoping that we would choose God instead of ourselves.

fromthe heart · Jul 5, 2006

My personal feelings are that God wanted man/woman to obey by free will. If they hadn't ever touched that tree we would have lacked the knowledge of good and evil and would have lived on for all time...in peace walking and talking with God...but since they(Adam and Eve) disobeyed we are all now given to either a show of obediance or a walk with evil doings...we have to prove ourselves to either belong to the family of God or the evil one.

I do believe God knew they would fail the test.

Satan's name was Lucifer...he once was one of the most beautiful angels and he and 1/3 of the angels though in the same manner that they could be as God and were cast from heaven because they disobeyed as well. To me this means God gave His angels free will as well as we humans too; we were not bound like slaves to God but came to God through obedience...this in it'self was God allowing us to make our choices. God wants only those who consciencously CHOOSE to be HIS and walk not with the world but with God...I also believe God knew how bad we would be and that He would have to destroy many of us along the way...I think of it as an inventor who creates something to do a specific thing and if it doesn't go right you destroy it and try again...but we were no mistake just mere mortals who can decide which path to take. God didn't want robots but obediant servers of Him by free will.

sojourner · Jul 5, 2006

fromthe heart said:
My personal feelings are that God wanted man/woman to obey by free will. If they hadn't ever touched that tree we would have lacked the knowledge of good and evil and would have lived on for all time...in peace walking and talking with God...but since they(Adam and Eve) disobeyed we are all now given to either a show of obediance or a walk with evil doings...we have to prove ourselves to either belong to the family of God or the evil one.

I do believe God knew they would fail the test.

Satan's name was Lucifer...he once was one of the most beautiful angels and he and 1/3 of the angels though in the same manner that they could be as God and were cast from heaven because they disobeyed as well. To me this means God gave His angels free will as well as we humans too; we were not bound like slaves to God but came to God through obedience...this in it'self was God allowing us to make our choices. God wants only those who consciencously CHOOSE to be HIS and walk not with the world but with God...I also believe God knew how bad we would be and that He would have to destroy many of us along the way...I think of it as an inventor who creates something to do a specific thing and if it doesn't go right you destroy it and try again...but we were no mistake just mere mortals who can decide which path to take. God didn't want robots but obediant servers of Him by free will.

Salvation isn't about proving ourselves worthy. It's about grace.

God wants all of us to choose God...and to choose to belong to God.

This paints an exceedingly grim and low (not to mention unBiblical) view of those whom God created just "a little lower than the angels." The Psalmist, in antecedent to that statement asks this question: "What is man, that God is mindful of him?"

Your viewpoint makes salvation a reward-based proposition. That proposition makes no room for grace.

Smoke · Jul 5, 2006

may said:
for me, when everything is said and done , it seems that God told the truth and the serpent lied, God said that they would die if they eat the fruit , satan said that they wouldnt die, ............

To me, if somebody says, "If you eat that you'll die," it means you'll die pretty soon, as a result of eating it. It doesn't mean you'll die 900 years later.

may said:
it is just as romans 5;12 tells us
That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. yes Jehovah God was right and satan was a lier.
(Genesis 2:17) But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
but no worries , we can get everlasting life back again
For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. romans 6;23

Paul probably believed, along with many members of Abrahamic religions today, that humans were immortal before the Fall and were punished with mortality. Or maybe the death he spoke of was a spiritual death. But there's no hint of that in the Genesis text. Nor is there any mention of sin, for that matter. If mortality had been the inevitable consequence of disobedience, why would God have worried that they might take from the Tree of Life, and live forever?

All the later talk about immortality and mortality is added on by later religious development, and forms no part of the original myth. In the most straightforward reading of it, God lies and then punishes their disobedience with curses.

Of course, I understand that if you believe in God, and that he will never lie, and that these events really happened, that's not a very satisfactory way of looking at it, and it becomes necessary to find another interpretation.

angellous_evangellous said:
Sarcasm?

Not at all.

Super Universe · Jul 5, 2006

fromthe heart said:
Satan's name was Lucifer...he once was one of the most beautiful angels and he and 1/3 of the angels though in the same manner that they could be as God and were cast from heaven because they disobeyed as well.

Dear Miss, can you please tell me where you got this idea that Satan's name was Lucifer and that he once was one of the most beautiful angels?

angellous_evangellous · Jul 5, 2006

MidnightBlue said:
Paul probably believed, along with many members of Abrahamic religions today, that humans were immortal before the Fall and were punished with mortality. Or maybe the death he spoke of was a spiritual death.

It would help your case if you could locate early rabbinic or other Jewish texts that interpret Genesis either way...

These sources would be footnoted in Francis Watson, Paul and the Hermenutics of Faith.

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