The Apostles Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:


Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.


He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.


He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.


I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.






So, is there any doctrine of any Christians specifically pulled from this? Just curious...I was curious, where does the idea of a trinity come from?

beckysoup61 said:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:


Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.


He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.


He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.


I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.






So, is there any doctrine of any Christians specifically pulled from this? Just curious...I was curious, where does the idea of a trinity come from?

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Christianity came out of Judaism, which at the time was strictly monotheistic. The early Christians wanted continuity with the confessions based on the Christian communities of New Testament and other early writings and the Jewish confessions of the Hebrew Bible.

In other words, the Jewish confession had long been that there was only One Divine God (perhaps other lesser divine beings in YHWH's court or at times other gods, but perhaps not close to the time of Christianity). If early Christian leaders had this frame of reference - or adopted it - the only way that Jesus could have any divine qualities is if he were God - the only God of the Hebrew tradition.

beckysoup61 said:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:


Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.


He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.


He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.


I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.






So, is there any doctrine of any Christians specifically pulled from this? Just curious...I was curious, where does the idea of a trinity come from?

Click to expand...

That is really quite funny that you should post the creed; I say it most days, unsure that I have it right, but always forgetting to check it (It just 'sounded' right to me).
As far as the Trinity is concerned.....

An excerpt from http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/trinity1.html

A Gallup Poll taken in 1966 found that 97% of the American public believed in God. Of that number, 83% believed that God is a Trinity.
Yet for all this belief in the Trinity, it is a doctrine that is not clearly understood by most Christian laymen. In fact, most have neither the desire nor the incentive to understand what their church teaches. Few laymen are aware of any problems with the doctrine of the Trinity. They simply take it for granted—leaving the mysterious doctrinal aspects to theologians.


And if the layman were to investigate further, he would be confronted with discouraging statements similar to the following: Such a statement means that the concept of the Trinity should be accepted or else. But, merely to accept it as doctrine without proving it would be totally contrary to Scripture. God inspired Paul to write:


Peter further admonished Christians: Therefore the Christian is duty bound to prove whether or not God is a Trinity.
If you were to confine yourself to reading the articles on the Trinity in popular religious literature for laymen, you would conclude that the Trinity is everywhere and clearly taught in the Bible. However, if you were to begin to read what the more technical Bible encyclopedias, dictionaries and books say on the subject, you would come to an entirely different conclusion. And the more you studied, the more you would find that the Trinity is built on a very shaky foundation indeed.
The problems inherent in clearly explaining the Trinity are expressed in nearly every technical article or book on the subject.


The New Catholic Encyclopedia begins: But why should the central doctrine of the Christian faith be so difficult to understand? Why should such an important doctrine present an unsteady silhouette? Isn't there a clear biblical revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity? Didn't Christ and the apostles plainly teach it?


Surely the Bible would be filled with teachings about such an important subject as the Trinity. But, unfortunately the word "Trinity" never appears in the Bible.Not only is the word "Trinity" never found in the Bible, there is no substantive proof such a doctrine is even indicated.


In a recent book on the Trinity, Catholic theologian Karl Rahner recognizes that theologians in the past have been: Other theologians also recognize the fact that the first chapter of John's Gospel--the prologue-- clearly shows the pre-existence and divinity of Christ and does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. After discussing John's prologue, Dr. William Newton Clarke writes: The first chapter of John's Gospel clearly shows the pre-existence of Christ. It also illustrates the duality of God. And as Dr. Clarke points out, the key to the possibility of the incarnation—the fact that God could become man.
The Apostle John makes plain the unmistakable fact that Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1-4). Yet we find no Trinity discussed in this chapter.
Probably the most notorious scripture used in times past as "proof" of a Trinity is I John 5:7. However, many theologians recognize that this scripture was added to the New Testament manuscripts probably as late as the eighth century A.D.
Notice what Jamieson, Fausset and Brown wrote in their commentary:
The conclusions arrived at in their commentary, written over 100 years ago, are still valid today. More conservatively oriented The New Bible Commentary (Revised) agrees, though "quietly" with Jamieson, Fausset and Brown.
The editors of Peake's Commentary on the Bible wax more eloquent in their belief that the words are not part of the original text.

Let’s try these verses on for size for the biblical support of the trinity:

Christ commands his followers to baptize in the name of the three persons of the trinity in the Great Commission:

“18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [2] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20 (ESV)

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Again in John 15:26-27, Christ talks of the Holy Spirit coming to assist the disciples after he is gone:

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.” John 15:26-27 (ESV)

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In these two verses, all three members of the trinity are again mentioned: the Holy Spirit (Helper, Spirit of Truth), the Father (from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds), and the Son (Jesus talks of himself as he speaks).

Paul then writes later in Galatians 4:6-7:

6 “And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.” Galatians 4:6-7 (ESV)

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Paul says God (the Father) has sent the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) of his Son (Jesus Christ) to aid Christians in confessing God as their Father. All three members of the trinity are present again, and all three are again parts of the Godhead.

When Paul ends his second letter to the Corinthians, he writes:

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” 2 Corinthians 13:2 (ESV)

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Paul blesses the church in Corinth in the names of all three persons of the trinity: Lord Jesus Christ, God (the Father), and the Holy Spirit.

“And yet, they are not three persons, but one person” (you all should read the Athanasius Creed, that is the document that explains the belief of the Trinity in detail). How can this be, if all of the above verses reference the Trinity in its three parts? That is why you take Scripture as a whole and not in little fragments. Scripture interprets Scripture. Human reason is incapable of such a task. After all, as Luther said “defending Scripture with human reason is like defending a sword with a bare hand.”

We know from Scripture that God is one God, not three Gods:

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Deuteronomy 6:4 (ESV)

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and…

Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 1 Corinthians 8:4 (ESV)

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Therefore, we know that God contains three persons as shown in Matthew 28:18-20, John 15:26-27, Galatians 4:6-7, and 2 Corinthians 13:2 (not to mention 1 John 5:7, which, despite what you say, is still part of the canon). We also know that there are not three gods, but one God (as shown in Deuteronomy 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 8:4). Thus, you have the trinity. It’s in Scripture.

beckysoup61 said:

So, is there any doctrine of any Christians specifically pulled from this? Just curious...I was curious, where does the idea of a trinity come from?

Click to expand...

I was raised as a Catholic and left the church at 18. The dogma of the Trinity NEVER made sense to me. I mean, it's completely illogical if you truly understand the Scriptures. I remember being a kid and wondering, "Now wait a minute, if Jesus is God, then why did he go off into the wilderness to pray to himself? And why did he call out on the cross "Why have you forsaken me? Did he forsake himself? And, It says in the Apostles Creed that Jesus sits at the right hand of the father. So is he sitting next to himself? And who the heck is this Holy Spirit Guy anyway?"

Anyway, since then I've learned a lot more about the Scriptures and it's accurate knowledge joins us all together - so I thought I'd share the following with all of you.

What is the Truth of the Trinity? The Word reveals at 1 Timothy 2:3,4 "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." KNOWLEDGE bears the TRUTH. But why does it call "God our Savior"? Shouldn't that be Christ? Who is the one that gave the Undeserved Kindness? It is Yahweh. It is through Yahweh's Wisdom that we are all given the chance of Salvation. The part Christ plays as our Savior, that is borne out in the next Scripture of the same Book of 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 "For there is one God" it does not say more than one because He is the Almighty God - Yahweh. The scripture continues, "and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time." What is a mediator? It is someone that acts as a go-between. Someone who tries to settle a dispute between two other parties. The dispute is SIN. The two parties are Yahweh and Mankind. The Mediator is Christ. How can Christ Mediate between his Father and Mankind if he is indeed Yahweh? There would be no need for a Mediator if Christ was Yahweh.

If Jesus christ were Yahweh, would he have made this statement at John 5:16? "So, because Jesus was doing these things on the sabbath, the jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."

It's pretty obvious that Christ differentiated himself from his Father Yahweh in that statement, isn't it? Why? Because he told ONLY THE TRUTH. He knew he himself was NOT God Almighty. He did not try to fool anyone into believing that he was.

Let's read Verse 19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." Does that sound like he was equal to Yahweh? Or, does it sound like Jesus was in submission of his Father's Will? At John 14:28 Jesus said, "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.'" If Jesus was Yahweh, he would be equal in GREATNESS; but he clearly stated that his Father is GREATER than he is. He also clearly stated that he was GOING TO HIS FATHER. That alone tells us that his Father was somewhere else, not playing the 3-headed part of a Trinty which included the personage of Jesus.

In arguments for Christ being Yahweh by those that have no understanding of the "Mystery" about Christ, they often say "Jesus was the human part of God." If that were so, then why, if Jesus is equal to his Heavenly self as Yahweh, that (his other self Portrayed as Yahweh) in Heaven knows things that Jesus, his human self, does not know? Mark 13:32 states: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Now think about that. How could Christ NOT KNOW if he was also God Almighty serving in a third role as the Son? It is absurd and ridiculos to believe such a myth as the Trinity.

Since Jesus returned to his Father, and resides on the Ladder of Authority just beneath Him, he too is again Holy Spirit. So, why would the Holy Spirit (a part of Yahweh's Active Force) that is made up of both Yahweh and Christ, why is it that the Holy Spirit would not know all things? Jesus went beyond being the human Son of the sacrifice. He is Spirit again, just as he was as the Word, but with "angels, authorities and powers" subjected to him. The Apostle Peter knew who Christ was. He knew he was not Yahweh. He stated at Matthew 16:16 "Simon Peter answered: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." That was in reply to Christ asking Peter who he thought he was. Peter did not say "You are Yahweh in the flesh." He knew Christ was the Son, but did not interpret him to be God Almighty.

There are many more examples to prove the Trinity is a falsehood. But the KEY ingredients are the understanding of this "Mystery" of Christ. John 1:1-3, 10 reveals the first part of the puzzle piece: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." Let's break the first puzzle piece down:

"In the beginning" is proven to be the Word's beginning - not ours. Proverbs 8:22 "The Lord (speaking of Yahweh as the Word's Lord) brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old." That Scripture reveals a part of the "Mystery" of how the Word came into existence. Then drop down to Verse 23 "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began." Was that the Word's beinning, or our beginning? It was his beginning. Because the other piece of the puzzle is at Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Not created by Yahweh Himself - but through His Masterworker or Craftsman, the Word. Proverbs 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any dust of the world." Why did the Word say "before he made"? Because he used his Father's knowledge, Wisdom, and a part of the Active Force imparted to him to be able to accomplish that feat. So, it can be said Yahweh created everything. But the Scriptures reveal that the Word created all else. Colossians 1:15-17 bears that out as part of this "Mystery." "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers, or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. To know that he created everything else aside from himself and his Father, we read Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was the craftsman at his side." Craftsman definition: " A worker skilled in a particular craft." From the definition you can see that the Word's Father taught him his craft. It was a gift from Yahweh to his only begotten Son. Through the Word, all other things came into existence.

Back to John 1:1-3, 10 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." Let's break the first puzzle piece down: "and the Word was with God," was also answered in the Scriptures at Proverbs 20.

"and the Word was God." But does that mean he is Yahweh? No. It means literally that the WORD was like Yahweh in every way. The EXACT IMAGE of GOD. He was created a God, but in subjection to his Father.

Isaiah 9:6 reveals Christ's role in his Kingdom: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Those are the titles Yahweh has bestowed upon his Son Christ Jesus. Note that he is a "Mighty GOD" not Almighty. Why is that? Yahweh is Supreme in all of Creation. If Yahweh ceased to exist, so would everything else. All life comes forth from the Creator. Creation's continuance depends upon Him. To reveal that Christ is in submission to his Father even after the installing of Christ's Kingdom: 1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ." That Scripture is pretty plane in dispelling that christ is Yahweh. If Christ was Yahweh, there would be no need to reference that God was not subjected beneath Christ. Then the next Verse 28 says: "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." If Jesus was Yahweh, it would not be necessary to subject something back to himself that he already had to begin with. It makes no logical sense.

Many people have trouble conceptualizing how Christ could be both fully human and fully divine -- just as many people have trouble recognizing their own place in the divine order.

Sasa said:

I was raised as a Catholic and left the church at 18. The dogma of the Trinity NEVER made sense to me. I mean, it's completely illogical if you truly understand the Scriptures. I remember being a kid and wondering, "Now wait a minute, if Jesus is God, then why did he go off into the wilderness to pray to himself? And why did he call out on the cross "Why have you forsaken me? Did he forsake himself? And, It says in the Apostles Creed that Jesus sits at the right hand of the father. So is he sitting next to himself? And who the heck is this Holy Spirit Guy anyway?"

Anyway, since then I've learned a lot more about the Scriptures and it's accurate knowledge joins us all together - so I thought I'd share the following with all of you.

What is the Truth of the Trinity? The Word reveals at 1 Timothy 2:3,4 "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." KNOWLEDGE bears the TRUTH. But why does it call "God our Savior"? Shouldn't that be Christ? Who is the one that gave the Undeserved Kindness? It is Yahweh. It is through Yahweh's Wisdom that we are all given the chance of Salvation. The part Christ plays as our Savior, that is borne out in the next Scripture of the same Book of 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 "For there is one God" it does not say more than one because He is the Almighty God - Yahweh. The scripture continues, "and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time." What is a mediator? It is someone that acts as a go-between. Someone who tries to settle a dispute between two other parties. The dispute is SIN. The two parties are Yahweh and Mankind. The Mediator is Christ. How can Christ Mediate between his Father and Mankind if he is indeed Yahweh? There would be no need for a Mediator if Christ was Yahweh.

If Jesus christ were Yahweh, would he have made this statement at John 5:16? "So, because Jesus was doing these things on the sabbath, the jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."

It's pretty obvious that Christ differentiated himself from his Father Yahweh in that statement, isn't it? Why? Because he told ONLY THE TRUTH. He knew he himself was NOT God Almighty. He did not try to fool anyone into believing that he was.

Let's read Verse 19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." Does that sound like he was equal to Yahweh? Or, does it sound like Jesus was in submission of his Father's Will? At John 14:28 Jesus said, "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.'" If Jesus was Yahweh, he would be equal in GREATNESS; but he clearly stated that his Father is GREATER than he is. He also clearly stated that he was GOING TO HIS FATHER. That alone tells us that his Father was somewhere else, not playing the 3-headed part of a Trinty which included the personage of Jesus.

In arguments for Christ being Yahweh by those that have no understanding of the "Mystery" about Christ, they often say "Jesus was the human part of God." If that were so, then why, if Jesus is equal to his Heavenly self as Yahweh, that (his other self Portrayed as Yahweh) in Heaven knows things that Jesus, his human self, does not know? Mark 13:32 states: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Now think about that. How could Christ NOT KNOW if he was also God Almighty serving in a third role as the Son? It is absurd and ridiculos to believe such a myth as the Trinity.

Since Jesus returned to his Father, and resides on the Ladder of Authority just beneath Him, he too is again Holy Spirit. So, why would the Holy Spirit (a part of Yahweh's Active Force) that is made up of both Yahweh and Christ, why is it that the Holy Spirit would not know all things? Jesus went beyond being the human Son of the sacrifice. He is Spirit again, just as he was as the Word, but with "angels, authorities and powers" subjected to him. The Apostle Peter knew who Christ was. He knew he was not Yahweh. He stated at Matthew 16:16 "Simon Peter answered: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." That was in reply to Christ asking Peter who he thought he was. Peter did not say "You are Yahweh in the flesh." He knew Christ was the Son, but did not interpret him to be God Almighty.

There are many more examples to prove the Trinity is a falsehood. But the KEY ingredients are the understanding of this "Mystery" of Christ. John 1:1-3, 10 reveals the first part of the puzzle piece: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." Let's break the first puzzle piece down:

"In the beginning" is proven to be the Word's beginning - not ours. Proverbs 8:22 "The Lord (speaking of Yahweh as the Word's Lord) brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old." That Scripture reveals a part of the "Mystery" of how the Word came into existence. Then drop down to Verse 23 "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began." Was that the Word's beinning, or our beginning? It was his beginning. Because the other piece of the puzzle is at Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Not created by Yahweh Himself - but through His Masterworker or Craftsman, the Word. Proverbs 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any dust of the world." Why did the Word say "before he made"? Because he used his Father's knowledge, Wisdom, and a part of the Active Force imparted to him to be able to accomplish that feat. So, it can be said Yahweh created everything. But the Scriptures reveal that the Word created all else. Colossians 1:15-17 bears that out as part of this "Mystery." "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers, or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. To know that he created everything else aside from himself and his Father, we read Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was the craftsman at his side." Craftsman definition: " A worker skilled in a particular craft." From the definition you can see that the Word's Father taught him his craft. It was a gift from Yahweh to his only begotten Son. Through the Word, all other things came into existence.

Back to John 1:1-3, 10 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." Let's break the first puzzle piece down: "and the Word was with God," was also answered in the Scriptures at Proverbs 20.

"and the Word was God." But does that mean he is Yahweh? No. It means literally that the WORD was like Yahweh in every way. The EXACT IMAGE of GOD. He was created a God, but in subjection to his Father. ...

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Please cite the sources of the material you quote.

The misconception here is that the Son is the Father. The theology of the Trinity makes it abundantly clear that the Son is not the Father. That concept is simply not part of Trinitarian theology. The Father and the Son are two separate and distinct persons.

Did one of the angel messengers produce this quotation? If so, it seems doubtful to me that an angel would wholly misunderstand Trinitarian theology and use misdirection in order to "prove a point."