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Salvation through Christ: Unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
We can disagree and not get into too much trouble.

Its great to explore the meaning of scripture and to have a level of confidence that we can meditate and prayerfully consider the mysteries as well as be detached enough to learn and be inspired by others.

I'm a Baha'i from a Christian background its nice to be talking about scripture with someone who is not taking a fundamentalist position.

A Jewish person can keep the laws of Noah as well as Torah and are of Adam like us. They have the advantage of the Torah, but they know they aren't blessed fully until all people are.

This is a nice analogy. The Teachings that God gave Moses would have enabled the Hebrew people to build on the foundation that Noah had provided. Jesus came to fulfil the law. What person of true faith whether Jew, Christian or Baha'i can be truly satisfied until all the prophecies have been fulfilled.

That full blessing is called the day of the LORD. It is the destruction of evil, and it can only be accomplished by the LORD.

So the day of the Lord is all about complete fulfilment and the attainment of world peace.

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 11:6-9

Perhaps the animals represent different nations and empires as they do in Daniel as the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord. Does this all pertain to the day of the LORD?

Because of this a Christian denies that war can lead to ultimate victory over evil. "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds."(2Cor 10:4) Everybody knows, I think, on an intuitive level that physical weapons cannot delete evil from existence. They just don't always believe its possible to delete evil with peace, but the prophets declare it will happen. I think this should be somewhat encouraging for a Baha'i.

The vision of Isaiah, Christ's ministry and Baha'u'llah's revelation are all closely interwoven.

Justice is, in this day, bewailing its plight, and Equity groaneth beneath the yoke of oppression. The thick clouds of tyranny have darkened the face of the earth, and enveloped its peoples. Through the movement of Our Pen of glory We have, at the bidding of the omnipotent Ordainer, breathed a new life into every human frame, and instilled into every word a fresh potency. All created things proclaim the evidences of this world-wide regeneration.
Baha'u'llah

That part of the West that is established peacefully is progress. That part of the West which is established by other means is not. Because among other problems we still have to have huge armies it cannot be called a complete victory. It is not the day of the LORD.

It is not the day of the Lord, but it is a process well advanced. Consider that over 100 years ago the world was mostly ruled by the European colonial powers. After WWII how much had changed. How increasingly we see ourselves as interdependent. As Institutions of governance throughout the world are profoundly reshaped, there is an underlying Spirit at work. Unseen forces of God Himself are closely linked to your faith and mine.

Its just one interpretation of Hebrews 1 and I appreciate you considering it. Gives me goosebumps you know.

We are both considering the sacred writings with your own eyes and not through the eyes of others. It should give us goosebumps!

I think you are correct not to consider my interpretation as a final authority. I have no problem with you taking and leaving parts, and if you had fully agreed with me it would have just given me a fat head wouldn't it. Perhaps disagreement is a kind of duty in that case, which apparently you fulfill naturally and without effort.

We just avail ourselves of the opportunity to learn from each other.

The Baha'is in my region have often been in the local Quakers hall where many interfaith gatherings have been held.

The symbolism of Israel is interesting. Jerusalem and the temple are hugely important too so like you I'm exploring the connections. For example the book of revelations mentions a new Jerusalem descending from heaven (Revelation 21:1-4). I wonder what that's all about, don't you?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member

Your welcome. Hope it helps if not now, somemtime in the future.

The whole faith verses deeds argument has been around for a very long time. I would argue that it is both that are required, not just one or the other.

You can't have the other until you have saving faith. The Bible is very clear in simple easy to understand English that works play no part in our salvation(Eph 2:8-9)

Romans 2:7
---Those truly born again will persevere, God guarantees it---Phil 1:6, Heb 12:2 & Jn 10:28-29.
Romans 3:31
---WE establish the law for our moral conduct, not for our salvation. Man needs to know what God considers sin, so we can try to avoid sinning.
Romans 6:15
That verse is not about salvation, it is about not sinning even though we are saved and can't lose it.
1 John 3:6
---To determine our sin, God does not look at our outward appearance, He looks on our heart(I Sam 16:7). We keep the law by joyfully concurring with it in the inner man, where the heart
is(Rom 7:22) . We also serve God law with out mind(Rom 7:15, also a part of our inner being. My
son, do not forget My teachings, but let your heart keep my commandments(Prov 3:1).
James 2:26
The body that has truly been born again, will do good works. The good works are evidence they have been born again. One can't have saving faith and not do good works

The question is then faith in what or who?

Faith in God and in what He says---Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. No mention of works.

Is it just faith in Christ or can Faith in other Founders of religion save too.

According to the Bible Jesus is the only way. You can believe it or not.

To properly answer that question we need to understand 'how' we are saved.

Eph 2:8-9, /Acts 16:30-31, Rom 10:9-11

You're a Christian fundamentalist and I'm a Baha'i. Lets see if we can agree on it being both faith and deeds before embarking on the hard stuff.

The Bible clearly says works do not save. Do your really think a Christian fundamentalist will give that up?

Every religion is legalistic (salvation depends on our conduct) except Christianity makes salvation dependent on faith alone. Atually on grace alone. IMO, that alone, which is beyond man's ability to invent, makes Christianity the only true religion. If one accepts salvation by grace alone, not of work, there is no hard stuff about how one is saved.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I Pet 1:19.

I was surprised to find out that "without spot" is not mentioned in the OT. It usually says "without blemish," or "without defect." I have no idea where I thought "spot" was a requirement. I always ask God to show me something new and today He used you to do it. Thanks.

All have sinned is from Rom 3:23. There are a couple of others but 1 should be enough.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

1 Peter 18-20

So how about the laws that came from Moses, that Christ fulfilled. Was that not likewise without blemish or spot?

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Romans 3:23

So these two quote emphasise a distinct between us and the Messiah. There would be such a distinction in any religion. How is it that Jesus saves us that is unique and requires Jesus and Jesus only?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Salvation from what?
Salvation from being separated from God and the suffering that entails.
I see. So you are not separated from God nor suffering from "all the suffering that entails'' while the rest of us (nearly 70% of the worlds population) are left to our isolation, pain, and the insufferable arrogance of proselytizing Christians. Seriously?

I think it also has a specific meaning in regards to escaping some of the difficulties with the Romans (Matthew 24:15-16).
As I've mentioned elsewhere, gMt is a recognized by many as a piece of occasionally fanciful apologetics penned anonymously roughly half a century after the proffered crucifixion. From my perspective, Lewis Carroll is far more authoritative.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This thread provides an opportunity to explore the concept of salvation and consider whether this is unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths.
Salvation from being separated from God and the suffering that entails.
In the interest of this topic, I would say the concept of salvation is not unique to Christianity at all. What is unique however is the way they frame it within their story arc, their mythos.

If you look at what is being said in the Christian mythos surrounding salvation it boils down exactly to what you said above, that sense of separation from God. The story of the Fall from Grace in the garden of Eden very clearly touches on this existential condition of our species feeling like we lost something somewhere in the past as we recognize our condition today of feeling separate from others and the world, isolated inside ourselves, a "condition of sin", or falling short of the mark or goal, or God; the Great Perfection. The story of salvation is about reconciling that lost relationship with the Source, or God. It's about finding God and Freedom from this condition of "sin" or separation. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", declares the Bible.

This is no different from the Eastern views of Enlightenment. The myth of Spirit at play, Lila. Spirit throws itself out from Source down the great chain of being into complete forgetfulness as part of a game of sorts, and then begins the path of the return home towards Self Realization, or remembrance. The path of Enlightenment is Spirit remembering Itself, seeing its Original Face, that "Ah hah" moment. In this with us right here in the middle we are in a state of illusion. That illusion is that this reality we imagine with our minds constitutes the Truth. This corresponds directly with that "sin" state. Sin and illusion are the same thing.

In Enlightenment, the blinders are pulled off and Truth is Realized. The realization is that is was never anywhere but here the whole time, and that it was just the illusion of our minds that couldn't see what is otherwise perfectly obvious. In the Christian concept of salvation, likewise the blinders are pulled off and you become reconciled with Source, and you realize God, "Christ in you." In both cases, you are "filled with the Spirit", as it were. The story of the veil in the temple between the holy of holies and the outer court being torn open from top to bottom with an unseen hand captures this very realization of all humanity being able to access the Divine directly through work of Spirit or Christ.

The truth of the matter is all the world's religions are expressing this same ultimate truth in their own ways, using their own unique ways of expressing that, following their own paths of practices to "overcome the world", to put to death the old man and raise the new, to transcend the ego and all desires, and so forth, and find or return to Source or God or Self. I found this perfect quote for this I put in my signature line below. “Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at the peak we all gaze at the single bright moon.” ~Ikkyu

There is another quote I wanted to add that I think captures this idea of human realization of this "sin state" and the desire for "reconciliation" with God or "salvation". It comes from Plotinus. "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts." As I said, these ideas are not unique to Christianity, only the way they chose to frame it in their stories and myths. But the essence is the same; to find and embrace God and realize salvation from the separate self, to be reconciled with God, to realize God in yourself and the whole world.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Christ's life was a sacrifice, not just the crucifixion and in that manner it could be argued we should all pick up our crosses and walk with Him (Matthew 10:38). We do not literally pick up a cross as Jesus did and ask the authorities to reinstate capital punishment Roman style. We sacrifice our lower nature (ego, desire, and passions) so the qualities of Christ become manifest in us. We become loving, compassionate, just, kind, and steadfast in His ways. This is living the life and walking the spiritual path with practical feet. It is also starting to sound very much like what people of other faiths do.

Yeah, we do. ;) Pick up your cross means to carry our burdens or sins. Is that symbolic?

If picking up one's cross is symbolic, I'd think "christ manifest in us" is symbolic since there is no actual visible spirit that floats into us like in a movie.

If it's symbolic, then I'd assume the results of symbolic sacrifice will also not be real as well even though I have experienced people who have real compassion, love, and so forth because of the literal sacrifice (giving up) one's life (which jesus did die) for the life of another; but, if it is all symbolic, did I really experience these things or a metaphor of them?

Just sayin'
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I see. So you are not separated from God nor suffering from "all the suffering that entails'' while the rest of us (nearly 70% of the worlds population) are left to our isolation, pain, and the insufferable arrogance of proselytizing Christians. Seriously?

We are all separated from God of course, and we all suffer. I am a Baha'i not a Christian. I am exploring the truth within the reality of Jesus's words, and His apostles. Clearly I acknowledge Him as being the Jewish Messiah as you reject Him. Who is right and who is wrong? Is that going to stop us having a reasoned, respectful conversation?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, gMt is a recognized by many as a piece of occasionally fanciful apologetics penned anonymously roughly half a century after the proffered crucifixion. From my perspective, Lewis Carroll is far more authoritative.

Perhaps, and perhaps not. The authenticity of the gospel of Matthew is another story. All the early church fathers were unanimous in that Matthew was the author but I appreciate the truth of the matter is less than clear. I'm happy to discuss it with you or not. The history seems a little less controversial in that life for your descendants became very difficult after 66AD. According to the gospel writers Matthew, Mark, and Luke Jesus foresaw these troubled times for His people.

I'm interested in interfaith discussion and getting away from assumptions of superiority based on faith.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
We are all separated from God of course, ...
No, not "of course." Yours is a statement of faith, not fact.

I am a Baha'i not a Christian.
I should have paid proper attention to your faith. My apologies.

Clearly I acknowledge Him as being the Jewish Messiah as you reject Him.
You can acknowledge him as whatever you wish. The fact remain that the narratives about Jesus tell the story of someone who in no way resembles the Messiah according to Jewish text, text which you appear to respect not at all.

I am exploring the truth within the reality of Jesus's words, and His apostles.
No, you are presuming a truth within apologetics, i.e., agenda-driven narratives, composed decades later.

The authenticity of the gospel of Matthew is another story. All the early church fathers were unanimous in that Matthew was the author but I appreciate the truth of the matter is less than clear.
The early church fathers were early church fathers in great part due to their view of the Gospels. Current scholarship differs. You might find Udo Schnell's The History and Theology of New Testament Writings informative.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

1 Peter 18-20

So how about the laws that came from Moses, that Christ fulfilled. Was that not likewise without blemish or spot?

All of the Levitical blood sacrifices are allegories of the substitutionary atonement of Jesus.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Romans 3:23

So these two quote emphasise a distinct between us and the Messiah. There would be such a distinction in any religion. How is it that Jesus saves us that is unique and requires Jesus and Jesus only?

The unique part is that Jesus saves us by grace alone through faith and we do not have to earn it. No othe religion I know has that doctrine.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No, not "of course." Yours is a statement of faith, not fact.

Its based on study of sacred scripture and experience.

I should have paid proper attention to your faith. My apologies.

Accepted.

You can acknowledge him as whatever you wish. The fact remain that the narratives about Jesus tell the story of someone who in no way resembles the Messiah according to Jewish text, text which you appear to respect not at all.

If you don't know what I believe and how it differs from Christianity, how can you say that?

No, you are presuming a truth within apologetics, i.e., agenda-driven narratives, composed decades later.

I based my understanding on study of sacred scripture, reason, and experience. That being said, the Baha'i position is very clear for those who take the time to study and understand it.

The early church fathers were early church fathers in great part due to their view of the Gospels. Current scholarship differs. You might find Udo Schnell's The History and Theology of New Testament Writings informative.

Udo Schnelle looks like a well respected scholar but I'm not going to buy his book. Do you have any links to the point you are wanting to make? How much study have you made of the NT?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, we do. ;) Pick up your cross means to carry our burdens or sins. Is that symbolic?

Yes.

If picking up one's cross is symbolic, I'd think "christ manifest in us" is symbolic since there is no actual visible spirit that floats into us like in a movie.

It is both symbolic and real.

If it's symbolic, then I'd assume the results of symbolic sacrifice will also not be real as well even though I have experienced people who have real compassion, love, and so forth because of the literal sacrifice (giving up) one's life (which jesus did die) for the life of another; but, if it is all symbolic, did I really experience these things or a metaphor of them?

Just sayin'

One way of looking at sacrifice is giving up something for the sake of God. In this manner we become recipients of the bounty of God. If we want to be married we need to give up old habits and develop new better habits to make it work. If we wish to be work for an organisation that usually involves making some sacrifices so we receive the benefits. If we want to be part of a Faith community the same applies. If we wish to follow the Teachings of a religious Founder whether it be Moses, Christ, Buddha, or Baha'u'llah the same principle applies.

The spiritual life of any faith involves putting away the old to give way to the new. The imagery of Christ on the cross help us to better understand this, and to embrace a deeper relationship with Him.

Is there a problem with this outlook?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
In the interest of this topic, I would say the concept of salvation is not unique to Christianity at all. What is unique however is the way they frame it within their story arc, their mythos.

If you look at what is being said in the Christian mythos surrounding salvation it boils down exactly to what you said above, that sense of separation from God. The story of the Fall from Grace in the garden of Eden very clearly touches on this existential condition of our species feeling like we lost something somewhere in the past as we recognize our condition today of feeling separate from others and the world, isolated inside ourselves, a "condition of sin", or falling short of the mark or goal, or God; the Great Perfection. The story of salvation is about reconciling that lost relationship with the Source, or God. It's about finding God and Freedom from this condition of "sin" or separation. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", declares the Bible.

This is no different from the Eastern views of Enlightenment. The myth of Spirit at play, Lila. Spirit throws itself out from Source down the great chain of being into complete forgetfulness as part of a game of sorts, and then begins the path of the return home towards Self Realization, or remembrance. The path of Enlightenment is Spirit remembering Itself, seeing its Original Face, that "Ah hah" moment. In this with us right here in the middle we are in a state of illusion. That illusion is that this reality we imagine with our minds constitutes the Truth. This corresponds directly with that "sin" state. Sin and illusion are the same thing.

In Enlightenment, the blinders are pulled off and Truth is Realized. The realization is that is was never anywhere but here the whole time, and that it was just the illusion of our minds that couldn't see what is otherwise perfectly obvious. In the Christian concept of salvation, likewise the blinders are pulled off and you become reconciled with Source, and you realize God, "Christ in you." In both cases, you are "filled with the Spirit", as it were. The story of the veil in the temple between the holy of holies and the outer court being torn open from top to bottom with an unseen hand captures this very realization of all humanity being able to access the Divine directly through work of Spirit or Christ.

The truth of the matter is all the world's religions are expressing this same ultimate truth in their own ways, using their own unique ways of expressing that, following their own paths of practices to "overcome the world", to put to death the old man and raise the new, to transcend the ego and all desires, and so forth, and find or return to Source or God or Self. I found this perfect quote for this I put in my signature line below. “Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at the peak we all gaze at the single bright moon.” ~Ikkyu

There is another quote I wanted to add that I think captures this idea of human realization of this "sin state" and the desire for "reconciliation" with God or "salvation". It comes from Plotinus. "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts." As I said, these ideas are not unique to Christianity, only the way they chose to frame it in their stories and myths. But the essence is the same; to find and embrace God and realize salvation from the separate self, to be reconciled with God, to realize God in yourself and the whole world.

Thank you @Windwalker

That is brilliant and expressed so beautifully.

I agree with everything you have said. So enlightenment and salvation are similar concepts expressed different ways in accordance with the different cultures from which those teachings arose.

We have degrees of salvation (enlightenment) in both this world and the next.

So how come so many Christians struggle to see the universality of the principles that underpin Christ on the cross?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
When I love someone, it isn't symbolic. I am actually and literally in love with that person. We can't "see" love and that does not mean it does not actually exist. What we call love is a combination of actual experiences, feelings, and emotions. It isn't symbolic.

So that means you aren't carrying actual burdens (you don't have challenges and troubles) because they are all symbolic?

I have Epilepsy and that is a burden/cross that I have to carry. If it's symbolic, I can take a placebo medication and I can pray for my seizures to cease and it will work because it's not literal. It's all in my head.

It is both symbolic and real.

Okay, you are now saying it is real. How can it be real when you just said that carrying your cross is symbolic? I carry actual burdens. To many people "christ manifest in the spirit" is just as real as my typing on this lap top. Unless we are taking placebo pills and experiences, what in this is symbolic? Especially when you say it is also real.

One way of looking at sacrifice is giving up something for the sake of God. In this manner we become recipients of the bounty of God. If we want to be married we need to give up old habits and develop new better habits to make it work. If we wish to be work for an organisation that usually involves making some sacrifices so we receive the benefits. If we want to be part of a Faith community the same applies. If we wish to follow the Teachings of a religious Founder whether it be Moses, Christ, Buddha, or Baha'u'llah the same principle applies.

If it's symbolic and not literal, how do you do that? I can express it in poetry but to actually give up something for the sake of god is not just thinking of the meaning behind it but the actual, literal action that defines "giving up" means. Yes, we can repent symbolically but without that physical repentance, what does it really mean (if you're not a poet, that is)?

The spiritual life of any faith involves putting away the old to give way to the new. The imagery of Christ on the cross help us to better understand this, and to embrace a deeper relationship with Him.

Many people can learn from symbolism. In this case, Christianity says that christ actually existed, died on the cross (a historical event), was resurrected in spirit (and some say in body as well) to be back with his father.

Would it not be more "powerful" to know that christ actually died to help you?

I mean, if I were drowning and someone said that my mother putting her hand in the water to help me was symbolic, I'd think "okay, am I imagining things then? If it's all in the meaning, I'd drown." but if it was a physical salvation (as such in christianity) then the person is actually saved. It goes beyond meaning.

That's the issue. Symbolic christianity just doesn't work in mainstream christianity. From a bahai view, of course meaning comes first. In other religions it's a combination of traditions, language, and culture. The rituals, dogma, and doctrine are the meaning. If you separate them, you have no symbolic or literal sacrifice. So...

Is there a problem with this outlook?

Yes. (If I don't forget which thread I'm posting on) in this case, I don't agree with religious experiences as symbolic. People actually had human sacrifices. People have animal sacrifices. These things aren't symbolic or myths. These happen in history. Their religious nature doesn't change the facts that people did things in reality.

However one wants to take these events and make them personal depends on the person. But the event isn't symbolic. Just a lot of people see it that way. Doesn't harm anyone unless you are talking about people's devotion to christ. If christ is symbolic so is there devotion. It's one thing to say you yourself believe this it's a whole nother thing to say this as a fact for others who share a literal connection with christ not a symbolic one.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
To the extent that "sacred scripture" is meant to imply inerrant holy writ, yes, I make zero claim to being informed by such text.

If I were a Buddhist from Southeast Asia how would you explain to me the correctness or otherwise of Judaism?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
We are all separated from God of course, and we all suffer. I am a Baha'i not a Christian.

Wait. In your other thread you say you were christian and bahai. You just have an unorthodox way of interpreting christianity because it's from a Bahai perspective rather than a christian one.

But I was thinking you were Christian/Bahai.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Christian beliefs about salvation centre around why Christ gave His life on the cross and what effect this sacrifice has for those who believe. Because many Christians believe that Christ's sacrifice was necessary for our salvation, they often do not believe or understand the importance of the sacrifice of other Founders of the great religions. This thread provides an opportunity to explore the concept of salvation and consider whether this is unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths. I have included this in the scripture section to encourage reasoned arguments based on biblical scripture or sacred texts from other religions.

I dunno if it's much a case of salvation as it is that religions seem to center on a perception by which a problem exists that needs "correction or fixing" and further prescribes a remedy through it's tenets.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Wait. In your other thread you say you were christian and bahai. You just have an unorthodox way of interpreting christianity because it's from a Bahai perspective rather than a christian one.

But I was thinking you were Christian/Bahai.

The joker trumps the ace!;)
 
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