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Salvation through Christ: Unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Christian beliefs about salvation centre around why Christ gave His life on the cross and what effect this sacrifice has for those who believe. Because many Christians believe that Christ's sacrifice was necessary for our salvation, they often do not believe or understand the importance of the sacrifice of other Founders of the great religions. This thread provides an opportunity to explore the concept of salvation and consider whether this is unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths. I have included this in the scripture section to encourage reasoned arguments based on biblical scripture or sacred texts from other religions.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Christ's life was a sacrifice, not just the crucifixion and in that manner it could be argued we should all pick up our crosses and walk with Him (Matthew 10:38). We do not literally pick up a cross as Jesus did and ask the authorities to reinstate capital punishment Roman style. We sacrifice our lower nature (ego, desire, and passions) so the qualities of Christ become manifest in us. We become loving, compassionate, just, kind, and steadfast in His ways. This is living the life and walking the spiritual path with practical feet. It is also starting to sound very much like what people of other faiths do.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Christian beliefs about salvation centre around why Christ gave His life on the cross and what effect this sacrifice has for those who believe. Because many Christians believe that Christ's sacrifice was necessary for our salvation, they often do not believe or understand the importance of the sacrifice of other Founders of the great religions. This thread provides an opportunity to explore the concept of salvation and consider whether this is unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths. I have included this in the scripture section to encourage reasoned arguments based on biblical scripture or sacred texts from other religions.
Let me offer for you an interpretation of Hebrews 1:1-3.
  • "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." -- NIV Hebrews 1:1-3
  • Notice the use of the term 'Son' in the above passage and that it is not using the term Jesus. This is on purpose, because by saying Son he is referring to Logos just as John refers to logos in his gospel. This is the Logos which is in the midst of Israel, purifying and transforming it from immaturity to maturity. If the writer were referring to imperfected Israel and not an extended concept of Israel (perfected) it would make nonsense of the paragraph. If he were referring to the man Jesus only, it would exclude the rest of us as sons making mincemeat of the rest of the letter. There is also a distinction between the Son that is imperfect Israel and the Son that is perfected Israel, the goal and the hope of blessing upon everyone not only Jews. The perfected Son is in all people in addition to Jews owing to its purity and power. Remember in Christianity the prayer Jesus teaches to pray is that God's will be done on earth as it already is in heaven, and this prayer is a follow-through of Abraham's blessing. It is an expectation of peace and brotherhood. That son which exists in heaven we wish to cause on earth. We are bringing it down to earth, and Hebrews 1:1 comments that through that Son we have a resource greater than individual prophecies.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Because many Christians believe that Christ's sacrifice was necessary for our salvation, they often do not believe or understand the importance of the sacrifice of other Founders of the great religions.
You're mixing up concepts, the Christian idea is a physical blood offering sacrifice performing black magic rituals they find in the Torah...

It isn't some ransom that Yeshua shall give up his life teaching the things of God, they need blood, as without blood in their understanding, there is no remission of sin.

So unless other messengers in other religions were brutally murdered in some form of ritualistic sacrifice, that isn't what Christianity is teaching.
Christian beliefs about salvation centre around why Christ gave His life on the cross and what effect this sacrifice has for those who believe.
You're aware they only do this based on what came after from John, Paul and Simon; Yeshua was teaching a living Gospel about making it Heaven on Earth, not a dead Gospel.
This thread provides an opportunity to explore the concept of salvation and consider whether this is unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths.
Lets talk about salvation without the evil parts...

Yeshua means salvation in Hebrew; the references to him coming in Isaiah 52:10, says we shall physically see the Salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu)...

Yet this continued after everything in Isaiah 53, to state 'through his knowledge, he turns many to righteousness', not by his death.

Unfortunately there is no salvation through the murdering of prophets, there is only imprisonment for those following it...

Instead within Yeshua's teachings is a summary of the ways of Oneness, by following what he taught you automatically become more righteous, and thus attain your own salvation by following him...

You can't follow a corpse, though vultures will try (Luke 17:37). :innocent:
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Christian beliefs about salvation centre around why Christ gave His life on the cross and what effect this sacrifice has for those who believe. Because many Christians believe that Christ's sacrifice was necessary for our salvation, they often do not believe or understand the importance of the sacrifice of other Founders of the great religions. This thread provides an opportunity to explore the concept of salvation and consider whether this is unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths. I have included this in the scripture section to encourage reasoned arguments based on biblical scripture or sacred texts from other religions.

The Bible clearly teaches the sacrifice for sins must be without spot or blemish. It also clearly teaches "all have sinned." This eliminates all but Jesus.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Christ's life was a sacrifice, not just the crucifixion and in that manner it could be argued we should all pick up our crosses and walk with Him (Matthew 10:38). We do not literally pick up a cross as Jesus did and ask the authorities to reinstate capital punishment Roman style. We sacrifice our lower nature (ego, desire, and passions) so the qualities of Christ become manifest in us. We become loving, compassionate, just, kind, and steadfast in His ways. This is living the life and walking the spiritual path with practical feet. It is also starting to sound very much like what people of other faiths do.

Many non-Christians exhibit the qualities you just mentioned. Biblical salvation is not based on what we do. It is based on what we believe. That concept is not taught in any other religion I am aware of. Spiritual truth is always unique and beyond the mind of man to originate.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
You're mixing up concepts, the Christian idea is a physical blood offering sacrifice performing black magic rituals they find in the Torah...

What qualifies you to determine if the rituals of a religion you doo not understand are black magis. That is insulting to the Jews and to Christians.

It isn't some ransom that Yeshua shall give up his life teaching the things of God, they need blood, as without blood in their understanding, there is no remission of sin.

Evidently you think you are smarter than God.

So unless other messengers in other religions were brutally murdered in some form of ritualistic sacrifice, that isn't what Christianity is teaching.

That is what God says, and even as smart as you think you are, you have no evidence that is is not true.

You're aware they only do this based on what came after from John, Paul and Simon; Yeshua was teaching a living Gospel about making it Heaven on Earth, not a dead Gospel.

Even if that is true, which it is not, what the Gospels teach was inspired by "God, making it true, unless your great "wisdom" can sdhow it is not.

Lets talk about salvation without the evil parts...

Yeshua means salvation in Hebrew; the references to him coming in Isaiah 52:10, says we shall physically see the Salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu)...

Yet this continued after everything in Isaiah 53, to state 'through his knowledge, he turns many to righteousness', not by his death.

Unfortunately there is no salvation through the murdering of prophets, there is only imprisonment for those following it...

Instead within Yeshua's teachings is a summary of the ways of Oneness, by following what he taught you automatically become more righteous, and thus attain your own salvation by following him...

You can't follow a corpse, though vultures will try (Luke 17:37). :innocent:

Your ignorance of Christian theoloy is obvious.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
What qualifies you to determine if the rituals of a religion you doo not understand are black magis.
Based upon the definitions of black magic, blood sacrifices are black magic....

The prophets stood against animal sacrifice (Jeremiah 7:21-23, Isaiah 66:3, Isaiah 1:11, Micah 6:5-8, Hosea 6:6, etc), stating they borrowed it from the Egyptians, and it wasn't instructed by God.
Evidently you think you are smarter than God.
Not in the slightest, God's ways are well beyond our level of comprehension...

Unfortunately what you're building your foundations on are not from God, they're from the Pharisees John, Paul and Simon...

So as Yeshua said, "unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees", you're not following him, and not going to get anything.
you have no evidence that is is not true.
Actually we've got overwhelming evidence; we can show that Paul contradicts Christ on many statements, we can show the Gospel of John is made up in a court of Law, and we can show it was prophecy by Yeshua, that Simon would mislead everyone.
what the Gospels teach was inspired by "God
Agreed everything is inspired by God, doesn't mean you should follow the things God has clearly said not to tho....

My knowledge isn't that advanced, I'm just willing to question what the text says on my own, without following what everyone automatically believed.
Your ignorance of Christian theoloy is obvious.
Don't be silly, I've spent 13 years speaking with Christians online, my Auntie owns a Christian book shop, and I've spent my life studying theology....

The problem arises, as Christianity is the Anti-Christ, and since I'm telling you, you are wrong in what i just stated, based on specification within the text; it is easier for you to attack me personally, then recognize the error of your own ways. :innocent:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Let me offer for you an interpretation of Hebrews 1:1-3.
  • "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." -- NIV Hebrews 1:1-3
  • Notice the use of the term 'Son' in the above passage and that it is not using the term Jesus. This is on purpose, because by saying Son he is referring to Logos just as John refers to logos in his gospel. This is the Logos which is in the midst of Israel, purifying and transforming it from immaturity to maturity. If the writer were referring to imperfected Israel and not an extended concept of Israel (perfected) it would make nonsense of the paragraph. If he were referring to the man Jesus only, it would exclude the rest of us as sons making mincemeat of the rest of the letter. There is also a distinction between the Son that is imperfect Israel and the Son that is perfected Israel, the goal and the hope of blessing upon everyone not only Jews. The perfected Son is in all people in addition to Jews owing to its purity and power. Remember in Christianity the prayer Jesus teaches to pray is that God's will be done on earth as it already is in heaven, and this prayer is a follow-through of Abraham's blessing. It is an expectation of peace and brotherhood. That son which exists in heaven we wish to cause on earth. We are bringing it down to earth, and Hebrews 1:1 comments that through that Son we have a resource greater than individual prophecies.

Thank you for your interesting response. You appear to have answered a riddle with a riddle which I'm fine about as it provides an opportunity to consider scripture more deeply.

It is interesting to consider logos in the context of John 1:1 which of course has been a cornerstone of Christian theology for centuries. Like many perplexing verses there are an array of understandings and so I understand logos to mean spiritual rather than physical incarnation of God. It comes back to Jesus or the 'Son of God' perfectly reflecting God's light. I reject a physical incarnation because there are too many scriptures that clearly contradict this idea, for example:

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


As for scripture supporting Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes:

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And perhaps we could add a verse from Hebrews 1:3 you have provided

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being


You will probably have better references re logos than this Wikipedia link but I found it very helpful nonetheless.

Logos (Christianity) - Wikipedia

I'm not too certain what you are meaning by the Son as Israel as the Jewish people will soon become dispersed as they fail to heed Jesus's wise words and advice to flee Judea (Matthew 24:16). Further the chalice of Divine revelation is handed from the Jews to Gentiles as a new champion for God's word is found.

However as with the words of the prayer "May thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven", the potency of Christ's words will eventually give rise to a new civilisation in the West, though not quite the fulfilment of Isaiah 2:1-5 or Isaiah 9:6-7

I do like the manner in which you weave the Old and New Testament together. I'd be very interested to hear any further thoughts you have.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible clearly teaches the sacrifice for sins must be without spot or blemish. It also clearly teaches "all have sinned." This eliminates all but Jesus.

Thank you. Would you provide the relevant verses you had in mind?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
You're mixing up concepts, the Christian idea is a physical blood offering sacrifice performing black magic rituals they find in the Torah...

No. I'm trying to make better sense of the how Christian view this concept. That means understanding their belief and the basis for that belief (scripture and reasons).

It isn't some ransom that Yeshua shall give up his life teaching the things of God, they need blood, as without blood in their understanding, there is no remission of sin.

No, probably not. I want to know how they got there and better understand scripture without rejecting entire New Testament books.

So unless other messengers in other religions were brutally murdered in some form of ritualistic sacrifice, that isn't what Christianity is teaching.

Agreed.

You're aware they only do this based on what came after from John, Paul and Simon; Yeshua was teaching a living Gospel about making it Heaven on Earth, not a dead Gospel.

I'm aware of your ideas here that few Christians seem to share. Unless we are able to accept each others points of view our conversation will be difficult as it has been previously. I regard these books as completely worthy of acceptance in the NT along with Matthew, Luke, and Mark. I accept and respect your views, I just don't agree with them.

Lets talk about salvation without the evil parts...

Yeshua means salvation in Hebrew; the references to him coming in Isaiah 52:10, says we shall physically see the Salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu)...

Yet this continued after everything in Isaiah 53, to state 'through his knowledge, he turns many to righteousness', not by his death.

Unfortunately there is no salvation through the murdering of prophets, there is only imprisonment for those following it...

These verses are clearly Messianic but make a case for God for the traditional Christian view of God sacrificing the Messiah.

I agree it is through His knowledge but also the example of is His life that salvation comes.

Instead within Yeshua's teachings is a summary of the ways of Oneness, by following what he taught you automatically become more righteous, and thus attain your own salvation by following him...

You can't follow a corpse, though vultures will try (Luke 17:37). :innocent:

Luke 17:37 refers to signs of the rise of His Kingdom on earth and second coming IMHO.

I agree salvation comes through living the life, but also faith.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not too certain what you are meaning by the Son as Israel as the Jewish people will soon become dispersed as they fail to heed Jesus's wise words and advice to flee Judea (Matthew 24:16). Further the chalice of Divine revelation is handed from the Jews to Gentiles as a new champion for God's word is found.
We can disagree and not get into too much trouble. A Jewish person can keep the laws of Noah as well as Torah and are of Adam like us. They have the advantage of the Torah, but they know they aren't blessed fully until all people are. That full blessing is called the day of the LORD. It is the destruction of evil, and it can only be accomplished by the LORD. Because of this a Christian denies that war can lead to ultimate victory over evil. "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds."(2Cor 10:4) Everybody knows, I think, on an intuitive level that physical weapons cannot delete evil from existence. They just don't always believe its possible to delete evil with peace, but the prophets declare it will happen. I think this should be somewhat encouraging for a Baha'i.

However as with the words of the prayer "May thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven", the potency of Christ's words will eventually give rise to a new civilisation in the West, though not quite the fulfilment of Isaiah 2:1-5 or Isaiah 9:6-7
That part of the West that is established peacefully is progress. That part of the West which is established by other means is not. Because among other problems we still have to have huge armies it cannot be called a complete victory. It is not the day of the LORD.

I do like the manner in which you weave the Old and New Testament together. I'd be very interested to hear any further thoughts you have.
Its just one interpretation of Hebrews 1 and I appreciate you considering it. Gives me goosebumps you know.

Thank you for your interesting response. You appear to have answered a riddle with a riddle which I'm fine about as it provides an opportunity to consider scripture more deeply.

It is interesting to consider logos in the context of John 1:1 which of course has been a cornerstone of Christian theology for centuries. Like many perplexing verses there are an array of understandings and so I understand logos to mean spiritual rather than physical incarnation of God. It comes back to Jesus or the 'Son of God' perfectly reflecting God's light. I reject a physical incarnation because there are too many scriptures that clearly contradict this idea, for example:
I think you are correct not to consider my interpretation as a final authority. I have no problem with you taking and leaving parts, and if you had fully agreed with me it would have just given me a fat head wouldn't it. Perhaps disagreement is a kind of duty in that case, which apparently you fulfill naturally and without effort.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I want to know how they got there and better understand scripture without rejecting entire New Testament books.
Please note i don't reject anything, it is all evidence pertaining to the case... As someone raised in a large Christian family, i can explain most of the teachings from all perspectives.

If you want can specify all the verses Christians use to make that claim, and why they believe it.... Yet also why it is contrary to the Law, and to the Prophets.
I'm aware of your ideas here that few Christians seem to share.
Yes of course they don't, as Christianity was established in Antioch by Paul and Simon; thus the main basis of its teachings are from that perspective; which completely contradicts Yeshua being against the murdering of prophets as atoning sacrifices.
I regard these books as completely worthy of acceptance in the NT
The prophecies about the Great Deception, and Mother of All Harlots, wouldn't be true if it wasn't for these books being included, so everything is for a reason.

Also I'm aware of your own perspective as a Baha'i, and have looked into its teachings also.
traditional Christian view of God sacrificing the Messiah.
They're missing a huge part of the logic involved in understanding it....

First where does Isaiah 53 say you get anything from it, other than by him acting as intercessor for people's souls...

Isaiah 53:10 specifically says, 'it made him grieve when you turned him into a sin offering'.

In Jewish Law how can we justify any of Isaiah 53 as Kosher?

After we question the implications, and legislation, thus investigate the text more, or at least logically we would expect in a legal book....

We see the first line of Isaiah 53:1 saying, 'who would have believed the rumor'; these words placed together, imply something so far fetched, how could any believe it.

Just realized my self, how the rumor is a similar word in Hebrew (shemû‛âh) to that of the one for the Abomination of 'Desolation' (shâmêm), it is to stun sinisterly, to bring a dark report.

When we then see that rumor within Isaiah is found twice in Isaiah 28:9-19 with verse 20 telling us it is the chiastic bed of adultery, that is mentioned in Revelation 2:22 where the false church is thrown.

The Bible is a riddle, across time, everything has a context, and nothing can be missed, else you catch yourself out some way by it.
I agree it is through His knowledge but also the example of is His life that salvation comes.
His teachings summarize the same as his minstry in being a light unto many, doing the work of God, and being one with everyone, regardless if they're sinners.

Another reason Christians go off in a tangent, by 'separating themselves from anyone who is not a Christian', doing good works for some race for grace, instead of hearing Yeshua.
Luke 17:37 refers to signs of the rise of His Kingdom on earth and second coming IMHO.
Agreed, as it interlinks with Isaiah 34, by the terms together, "vultures gathering", thus listing all the Unkosher Ravenous animals to be removed on the Day of the Lord.

Then as you say the New Kingdom is after from my understanding of all the prophecies; where the remnant (144000) are to remain infinitely from then on, as Saints of the Most High with Christ .i.e Salvation (Yeshua). :innocent:
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Based upon the definitions of black magic, blood sacrifices are black magic....

Some are some are not. Evidently you can't distinguish betrwene the differences.

The prophets stood against animal sacrifice (Jeremiah 7:21-23, Isaiah 66:3, Isaiah 1:11, Micah 6:5-8, Hosea 6:6, etc), stating they borrowed it from the Egyptians, and it wasn't instructed by God.

Jer 7:21-23 - "Add" in v21 means include this one in you other sacrifice and the burnt offering was a blood sacrifice.
Isa 66:3 - Include the4 context, verse 2. God is saying sacrifices made without a contrite spirit and does not tremble at God's word is of no value and will not be accepted.
Isa 1:11 - This is basically the same as Isa 66:3. They are offering sacrifices with the wrong motives. He is speaking to a sinful nation, verse3-4.
Micah and Hosea 6:6 are not forbidding sacrifices, they both say obedience is better than sacrifice. Also put in context, verse 6:1of Hosea. They had abandoned worship of God. Why should He accept the sacrifices?

Not in the slightest, God's ways are well beyond our level of comprehension...
Some are, most are not. It certainly isn't beyond our level of comprehension to know that God instituted an elaborate sacrificial system in Leviticus. In addition, God made the first blood sacrifice(Gen 3:21), which was also a prophecy of the substitutionary atonement of Jesus.

Unfortunately what you're building your foundations on are not from God, they're from the Pharisees John, Paul and Simon...

Another verification of your ignorance of Christianity. All you just mentioned were diametrically opposed to the teachings of the Pharisees, especially Paul.

So as Yeshua said, "unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees", you're not following him, and not going to get anything.

Another example of you lack of understanding. The Pharisees were not righteous. The thought they were because the thought they were keeping the laws of God perfectly. Man can't become righteous by keeping god's laws. It can only be done through accepting Jesus as Savior2w Cor 5:21 & I Cor 1:30).

Actually we've got overwhelming evidence; we can show that Paul contradicts Christ on many statements, we can show the Gospel of John is made up in a court of Law, and we can show it was prophecy by Yeshua, that Simon would mislead everyone.

Your links did not work, so I can't comment on them except to say Paul never contradicts Jesus and you have not evidence the gospel of John was made up in a court of law, and that Simon did not mislead any one. If you want to discuss those accusations, you will have to give me some specific examples.

Agreed everything is inspired by God, doesn't mean you should follow the things God has clearly said not to tho....

DUUH

My knowledge isn't that advanced, I'm just willing to question what the text says on my own, without following what everyone automatically believed.

From what you have posted it is evident that you do not understand even basic Christianity.

Don't be silly, I've spent 13 years speaking with Christians online, my Auntie owns a Christian book shop, and I've spent my life studying theology....

How do you know the ones you have spoken to are not liberals who deny most the the Bible as being from God. I am not questioning your Aunts Christianity, but owning a Christian does not make one a Christian any more than owning a Bible does.

The problem arises, as Christianity is the Anti-Christ, and since I'm telling you, you are wrong in what i just stated, based on specification within the text; it is easier for you to attack me personally, then recognize the error of your own ways. :innocent:

I have not attack you personally, I have attacked your theology. Saying you are ignorant of Christianity, is only a personal attack if it is not true.
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Thank you. Would you provide the relevant verses you had in mind?

I Pet 1:19.

I was surprised to find out that "without spot" is not mentioned in the OT. It usually says "without blemish," or "without defect." I have no idea where I thought "spot" was a requirement. I always ask God to show me something new and today He used you to do it. Thanks.

All have sinned is from Rom 3:23. There are a couple of others but 1 should be enough.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Some are some are not.
So within your experience of magic, which ceremonies that cause the spilling of blood in anyway are white magic?
Add" in v21
Yes started on that verse Jeremiah 7:21-23, and then read to it where it is saying God didn't instruct the sacrificial Laws, the Levitical priests did (borrowed from Egyptian customs), so they could eat meat.
Isa 66:3 - Include the4 context
Include the whole of Isaiah context, no dead thing shall come on God's holy mountain in the Messianic age (Isaiah 65:25), there is shall no longer be death in the world (Isaiah 25:8); do you see the issue with any form of sacrifice?
He is speaking to a sinful nation, verse3-4.
Whose hand's are full of blood, because they perceive offerings mean more than knowledge.
Micah 6:5-8 defines what the use of Balaam teachings implies within Revelation 2:14 and Jude 1:11

God doesn't require sacrifice, it is something we've done to please God; yet God has never required it, as everything is God's to begin with....

So saying 'god sent jesus to die', is a defilement of the Law.
All you just mentioned were diametrically opposed to the teachings of the Pharisees, especially Paul.
Think missing the key point of Yeshua challenged the Pharisees for murdering the prophets as atoning sacrifices in Matthew 23:27-38, Mark 7:1-13, and the Parable of the Wicked Husbandman (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19).

So when we examine each of the teachings within John, Paul and Simon, they've each taught in someway that Yeshua came to die; which is what Yeshua challenged the Pharisees for.

The Pharisaic oral tradition, 'the death of the righteous, can atone for the sins of that generation', has been constructively used to create Christianity from. :innocent:
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
So within your experience of magic, which ceremonies that cause the spilling of blood in anyway are white magic?

I have had no experiences in magic of any kind. Did God not teach you that there is no such thing as magic?

Yes started on that verse Jeremiah 7:21-23, and then read to it where it is saying God didn't instruct the sacrificial Laws, the Levitical priests did (borrowed from Egyptian customs), so they could eat meat.

Did you already forget that God performed the first blood sacrifice? We can also see it was well established by Abel in Gen 4:4.

Include the whole of Isaiah context, no dead thing shall come on God's holy mountain in the Messianic age (Isaiah 65:25), there is shall no longer be death in the world (Isaiah 25:8); do you see the issue with any form of sacrifice?

Isa 65:25 says no such thing and neither does 25:8. Did God not tell you that after 70 AD, blood sacrifices can no longer be performed as prescribed in the Bible, and that in the Messianic age, they will not be necessary. The only blood sacrifice that is needed was done on the cross of Calvary.

>>Whose hand's are full of blood, because they perceive offerings mean more than knowledge.<<

Not more than knowledge, more than obedience.

Micah 6:5-8 defines what the use of Balaam teachings implies within Revelation 2:14 and Jude 1:11

Those verses have no connection to each other. Balaam neve mentioned blood sacrifices.

God doesn't require sacrifice, it is something we've done to please God; yet God has never required it, as everything is God's to begin with....<<

The Passover and Leviticus say differently/

So saying 'god sent jJesus to die', is a defilement of the Law.<<

The Bible says differently.

Think missing the key point of Yeshua challenged the Pharisees for murdering the prophets as atoning sacrifices in Matthew 23:27-38, Mark 7:1-13, and the Parable of the Wicked Husbandman (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19).

The Bible says no such thing.

So when we examine each of the teachings within John, Paul and Simon, they've each taught in someway that Yeshua came to die; which is what Yeshua challenged the Pharisees for.

Wrong again, The only thing Jesus challaned the Phariseesd for was their hypocrisy.

The Pharisaic oral tradition, 'the death of the righteous, can atone for the sins of that generation', has been constructively used to create Christianity from. :innocent:

I am surprised God did not tell you than Christians do not accept oral traditions. No wonder I don't accept that God sent you.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Salvation from what?

Salvation from being separated from God and the suffering that entails.

I think it also has a specific meaning in regards to escaping some of the difficulties with the Romans (Matthew 24:15-16). In this manner Jesus literally saved His Jewish followers from the Romans as Moses saved His people from the Egyptians.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Many non-Christians exhibit the qualities you just mentioned. Biblical salvation is not based on what we do. It is based on what we believe. That concept is not taught in any other religion I am aware of. Spiritual truth is always unique and beyond the mind of man to originate.

Thank you @omega2xx

The whole faith verses deeds argument has been around for a very long time. I would argue that it is both that are required, not just one or the other.

Romans 2:7
Romans 3:31
Romans 6:15
1 John 3:6
James 2:26

The question is then faith in what or who? Is it just faith in Christ or can Faith in other Founders of religion save too. To properly answer that question we need to understand 'how' we are saved.

You're a Christian fundamentalist and I'm a Baha'i. Lets see if we can agree on it being both faith and deeds before embarking on the hard stuff.
 
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