Lets contemplate the crucifiction

shmogie · Apr 5, 2017

Evie said:
Are you avoiding the point? My words refer to the resulting devastation of the atomic bomb. Was such devastation the bomb's fault or does the responsibility for the devastation fall directly to whoever created the atomic bomb. And these words were in answer to the question of God's creating humans. and being an all knowing entity knew the devastation they would endure. The question being raised was: should God have brought this about.

Once again, GOD CANNOT KNOW WHAT HASN"T HAPPENED. Therefore he cannot be responsible for it. Your atomic bomb analogy is poor, here is why. For decades I carried a sidearm as part of my work, I still do after retirement. Every officer who does must be highly trained, and deal with the possibility of taking a life ( I came close,but thanks to God, I didn't) My coping mechanism was simple, and correct. If someone chooses to knowingly do what they know could result in their death, and I kill them, their death is their fault. They initiated and pursued the action that would inevitably end as it did. Ditto for the atomic bomb, the fault lies with no one but the Japanese, for starting a war and refusing to surrender when they were beaten and had the opportunity.

Kenny · Apr 5, 2017

shmogie said:
I prefer to say that God always achieves his goals. However, that doesn't mean there are no costs to achieving those goals. You want to reduce it to a dry mathematical formula. It is not. First, we are made in the image of God, which means that like us he can feel emotion. The issues with humanity undoubtedly have created sadness for him, even though he knows humanity will ultimately will be as he intended, this knowledge doesn't mitigate the emotion he felt, the price he paid. Now, to Christ, again, you totally fail to understand the scope of who He was as a human, and what he experienced. He knew, as one third of the Godhead, before the task, that he would succeed. He becomes a human for a very specific purpose, and in doing so is trapped in a body that feels pain, hunger, thirst etc,etc,etc. Imagine yourself diving into an 8 feet deep cesspool, and staying there for 33 years, for someone else, would you be making a sacrifice ? It was undoubtedly worse for him. He had to deal daily with the totally corrupt and broken world, for a perfect being, wouldn't you consider this a sacrifice ? Now to the cross, which you seem to feel was a piece of cake. Lets see. Of course as a human he was humiliated and spat upon and beaten, I wouldn't have blamed him if he said "I've had enough" and returned to his proper state and place, but he didn't, this wasn't a sacrifice ? He always had a direct connection with the two other points of consciousness of the Godhead, primarily his 'Father". This connection was severed upon becoming a human, and everything was filtered through his humanity, he probably felt isolated. On the cross, he felt the pain and all the rest, and when the full burden of humanities sins was placed upon him, his Father by nature severed the connection they did have. That's why He shouted " my God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?" So, there was no risk in his mind, no fear of death ? Feeling totally forsaken by the one who would bring him back to life ? He was in human form, and felt anxiety, dread, fear, but he carried on. No sacrifice there ? He went in to death with these feelings, with only his faith that God would do as he said. No sacrifice there ? The entire life and death of Christ was a sacrifice, given freely so that the perfect mercy of God and the perfect justice of God were re established, solely for the sake of................................................you, if you accept it.
[

Clear, concise, informative, life giving and fully understandable. Well said!!

Kenny · Apr 5, 2017

shmogie said:
Once again, GOD CANNOT KNOW WHAT HASN"T HAPPENED. Therefore he cannot be responsible for it. Your atomic bomb analogy is poor, here is why. For decades I carried a sidearm as part of my work, I still do after retirement. Every officer who does must be highly trained, and deal with the possibility of taking a life ( I came close,but thanks to God, I didn't) My coping mechanism was simple, and correct. If someone chooses to knowingly do what they know could result in their death, and I kill them, their death is their fault. They initiated and pursued the action that would inevitably end as it did. Ditto for the atomic bomb, the fault lies with no one but the Japanese, for starting a war and refusing to surrender when they were beaten and had the opportunity.

What is there not to understand? Unless one simply doesn't want to.

Repox · Apr 5, 2017

shmogie said:
Gads you just don;t get it do you ? Something that doesn't exist, can't exist. I don't need to read that particular book, I have read enough about this theory as well as scholars opposed to it, and it fails. Lets just leave it there till you can produce a certified mid first century prior Gospel. You can't now, so let it go, there isn;t one.

I present a book and links as evidence, and you say, "Something that doesn't exist, can't exist. I don't need to read that particular book, I have read enough about this theory as well as scholars opposed to it, and it fails." Therefore, it is a total waste of time discussing with you. You ask for evidence, then you ignore it. How stupid it that?

shmogie · Apr 5, 2017

Repox said:
I present a book and links as evidence, and you say, "Something that doesn't exist, can't exist. I don't need to read that particular book, I have read enough about this theory as well as scholars opposed to it, and it fails." Therefore, it is a total waste of time discussing with you. You ask for evidence, then you ignore it. How stupid it that?

I didn't ask for evidence, I asked for the written Gospel you said existed. You can't produce it, neither can any of your books. It has been a waste of time from the start, you cannot produce what you say exists, how stupid is that ? Just let it go, I shan't respond any further, fell free to get in the last word if you need to.

vijeno · Apr 6, 2017

Cobol said:
The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me as a sacrifice to me. That, finally, will make me happy. Yes, sending myself down and having the humans crucify me.

Would that not entail an intention to sacrifice Jesus to god? As far as I can see, nobody intended it that way.

Repox · Apr 6, 2017

shmogie said:
I didn't ask for evidence, I asked for the written Gospel you said existed. You can't produce it, neither can any of your books. It has been a waste of time from the start, you cannot produce what you say exists, how stupid is that ? Just let it go, I shan't respond any further, fell free to get in the last word if you need to.

I posted gospels and links. I also posted a book about them. You seem to be playing a deceptive game. We shall not discussion.

Ingledsva · Apr 6, 2017

shmogie said:
If someone chooses to knowingly do what they know could result in their death, and I kill them, their death is their fault. They initiated and pursued the action that would inevitably end as it did. Ditto for the atomic bomb, the fault lies with no one but the Japanese, for starting a war and refusing to surrender when they were beaten and had the opportunity.

So,- if our military is fighting with ISIS, and evil/wrong from their point of view, - then it is OUR fault - and thus OK, - if they drop an atomic bomb in the middle of New York City killing innocent women, children, old folks, and other men?

There is NEVER an excuse for purposely killing the innocent.

That bomb is no different then the gas attacks we have heard about this week, - killing innocent people.

That atomic boom drop should be recorded in history as a war crime.

As should the fact that we didn't help the wounded and dying after, - even though we knew how to.

*

shmogie · Apr 6, 2017

KenS said:
Clear, concise, informative, life giving and fully understandable. Well said!!

Thanks

shmogie · Apr 6, 2017

Ingledsva said:
So,- if our military is fighting with ISIS, and evil/wrong from their point of view, - then it is OUR fault - and thus OK, - if they drop an atomic bomb in the middle of New York City killing innocent women, children, old folks, and other men?

There is NEVER an excuse for purposely killing the innocent.

That bomb is no different then the gas attacks we have heard about this week, - killing innocent people.

That atomic boom drop should be recorded in history as a war crime.

As should the fact that we didn't help the wounded and dying after, - even though we knew how to.

*

You fail to realize that to subdue the home islands of Japan a hundred thousand American casualties would probably have resulted. You fail to understand the context of WW2 and what was happening. General Sherman realized in the Civil war, that the civilian population in the South was a support structure for it's armies, and therefore complicit in the war. He further realized that if the civilian population was stripped of it's capacity to support the army, the war would be over sooner and lives would be saved. It is called total war. In WW2 Japan, with the support of it's population employed total war first in China and Manchuria, as well numerous other locations, the Germans did the same by bombing London. In total war, the population is a critical support for the military, thus, part of the military operation. Who is "innocent" and how do you defeat a nation when the alleged innocents are interspersed with the complicit population ? The only thing that has prevented another total war is mutual assured destruction. The guarantee that the entire world population would be destroyed. Every war since WW2 has been a limited war. In a limited war, only military assets and direct support components are to be attacked. Sometimes mistakes are made. The gas attack you reference the brainchild of a viscous tyrant, to terrorize the civilian population using illegal and world banned weapons

shmogie · Apr 6, 2017

Repox said:
I posted gospels and links. I also posted a book about them. You seem to be playing a deceptive game. We shall not discussion.

There is no copy extant of a Gospel from the mid first century. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. I am not being deceptive when I disagree with your opinion. Finito

Ingledsva · Apr 6, 2017

shmogie said:
You fail to realize that to subdue the home islands of Japan a hundred thousand American casualties would probably have resulted. You fail to understand the context of WW2 and what was happening. General Sherman realized in the Civil war, that the civilian population in the South was a support structure for it's armies, and therefore complicit in the war. He further realized that if the civilian population was stripped of it's capacity to support the army, the war would be over sooner and lives would be saved. It is called total war. In WW2 Japan, with the support of it's population employed total war first in China and Manchuria, as well numerous other locations, the Germans did the same by bombing London. In total war, the population is a critical support for the military, thus, part of the military operation. Who is "innocent" and how do you defeat a nation when the alleged innocents are interspersed with the complicit population ? The only thing that has prevented another total war is mutual assured destruction. The guarantee that the entire world population would be destroyed. Every war since WW2 has been a limited war. In a limited war, only military assets and direct support components are to be attacked. Sometimes mistakes are made. The gas attack you reference the brainchild of a viscous tyrant, to terrorize the civilian population using illegal and world banned weapons

Baloney, - a friend did a paper on this.

The war was at an end. There was no reason to drop it, - other then using Japanese civilians as human ginny-pigs for the atomic bomb.

And they did use them as ginny-pigs, sitting back and watching to see the effects, how far the destruction spread, future death from exposure, etc. They could have helped the civilians with information they already had, but chose not to. That is a war crime.

As to the rest - the WAR ZONE was Europe. Thus bombing back and forth to try and gain ground, and rout the other. Dropping the atomic bomb on civilians in Japan, - would be the same as dropping the atomic bomb on civilians in the USA.

*

shmogie · Apr 6, 2017

Ingledsva said:
Baloney, - a friend did a paper on this.

The war was at an end. There was no reason to drop it, - other then using Japanese civilians as human ginny-pigs for the atomic bomb.

And they did use them as ginny-pigs, sitting back and watching to see the effects, how far the destruction spread, future death from exposure, etc. They could have helped the civilians with information they already had, but chose not to. That is a war crime.

As to the rest - the WAR ZONE was Europe. Thus bombing back and forth to try and gain ground, and rout the other. Dropping the atomic bomb on civilians in Japan, - would be the same as dropping the atomic bomb on civilians in the USA.

*

A friend did a paper on this, was this in third grade ? No, the war wasn't at an end, it was in Europe, but not in the Pacific. As to your comments re guinea pigs, and the information they had, you had better supply some support, because your assertion is nonsense. You have absolutely no idea of the combined elements of a war crime, you are substituting your opinion for knowledge. Most of the major city's in Germany, and Italy, and many in Russia and England were destroyed. It wasn't about gaining ground (tactical bombing) it was about destroying the fabric of the enemy nation (strategic bombing). You are really upset about nukes being used, why aren't you upset about the fire bombing of Tokyo, that killed more ? Or the bombing of Coventry, that killed tens of thousands, or Berlin., or London, or Moscow combined these raids killed many, many, many more than the nukes did. I suggest you put down your friends paper, and study history a little. You will be surprised how it makes you sound like you might know what you are talking about.

Repox · Apr 7, 2017

shmogie said:
There is no copy extant of a Gospel from the mid first century. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. I am not being deceptive when I disagree with your opinion. Finito

Then, be read Bock's book about the Missing Gospels in which he lists.

shmogie said:
There is no copy extant of a Gospel from the mid first century. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. I am not being deceptive when I disagree with your opinion. Finito

It is not finished.

Here is evidence for gospels prior to the four NT gospels. Based on The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack., you discover son of God and crucifixion stories didn't emerge until 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. Mark does a brilliant job of discovering the missing gospel Q from the four gospels and extracting a time line for the “Jesus movement.” For those lacking understanding or ability, Mack’s analysis is indiscernible. Prior to Jesus movement leaders circulating those stories, Jesus was regarded as a wise man or sage. Then, we have another prior gospel, The Gospel of Thomas. About 40% of verses from Thomas are in the four NT gospels.

Then, there were other gospels, which have been lost. History of the Catholic Church shows church leaders destroyed those other gospels in order to make the four they selected to the “only” gospels in existence. What remains are fragmented gospels.

Lost Gospels

Some of these lost gospels include,

The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Peter, and The Gospel of Judas.

shmogie · Apr 7, 2017

Repox said:
Then, be read Bock's book about the Missing Gospels in which he lists.

It is not finished.

Here is evidence for gospels prior to the four NT gospels. Based on The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack., you discover son of God and crucifixion stories didn't emerge until 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. Mark does a brilliant job of discovering the missing gospel Q from the four gospels and extracting a time line for the “Jesus movement.” For those lacking understanding or ability, Mack’s analysis is indiscernible. Prior to Jesus movement leaders circulating those stories, Jesus was regarded as a wise man or sage. Then, we have another prior gospel, The Gospel of Thomas. About 40% of verses from Thomas are in the four NT gospels.

Then, there were other gospels, which have been lost. History of the Catholic Church shows church leaders destroyed those other gospels in order to make the four they selected to the “only” gospels in existence. What remains are fragmented gospels.

Lost Gospels

Some of these lost gospels include,

The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Peter, and The Gospel of Judas.

Mack was wrong, a majority of scholars say so, Thomas was written long after the original four. The others, ditto. So now, what you said existed, and I have been asking for, a certified copy of a Gospel from mid first century, doesn't exist, because they were you allege, destroyed. The copies you proclaim as being earlier, are in fact, proven to be from the fourth century. Thank you, you finally admitted exactly what I have been saying, there is NO Gospel from the mid first century, only much later copies, that your selected authors BELIEVE were earlier. Most other Bible scholars disregard these beliefs
. and believe they were much later

Repox · Apr 7, 2017

shmogie said:
Mack was wrong, a majority of scholars say so, Thomas was written long after the original four. The others, ditto. So now, what you said existed, and I have been asking for, a certified copy of a Gospel from mid first century, doesn't exist, because they were you allege, destroyed. The copies you proclaim as being earlier, are in fact, proven to be from the fourth century. Thank you, you finally admitted exactly what I have been saying, there is NO Gospel from the mid first century, only much later copies, that your selected authors BELIEVE were earlier. Most other Bible scholars disregard these beliefs
. and believe they were much later

My evidence shows those gospels written before the four NT gospels. You have no evidence, just speculation.

shmogie · Apr 8, 2017

Repox said:
My evidence shows those gospels written before the four NT gospels. You have no evidence, just speculation.

Fine. This then is the last word, unless you want some more, I won't respond, this dead horse has been beaten to shreds.

Repox · Apr 8, 2017

Cobol said:
Have you ever thought about how bizarre the crucifixion story is? Imagine the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven. He looks down onto earth and says to himself:

Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...
Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human for all eternity. I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them. I HATE IT! I tried killing all the humans and animals once in the flood. That certainly did not fix the problem.

So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me as a sacrifice to me. That, finally, will make me happy. Yes, sending myself down and having the humans crucify me.

How much sense does this make?

I have an alternate explanation, which is contrary to Christians beliefs, but is not in dispute inasmuch as the Christian version has little evidence, just Church sponsored stories. So, what really happened? Admittedly, my views are influenced by a serious of dreams and visions. Don't bother with the Satan gave them to you, etc., I am stubborn and won't change my mind.

Briefly, here is what I think happened. God came into the world as a man (Jesus) to "give testimony" to his chosen people. Because God is a duality, I believe Rev. 11 about the two witnesses is the true story. I had a dream about Jesus being beaten to death by a Roman soldier, so I don't believe in the crucifixion story. The real story is too horrible to believe, and it lacks drama, like interesting and dramatic Jesus stories and, of course, the crucifixion story. I don't believe Jesus walked on water or did those other miraculous things like healing many afflicted people. He just gave testimony to his chosen people. But the real story lacked drama or romantic twists, so miraculous Jesus stories were added. Unfortunately for God's chosen people and humanity, God (Jesus) was rejected and murdered ("The beast (Satan) that comes from the abyss (universe) will attack them, and overpower and kill them (duality of God)" Rev. 11:7. Satan took possession of the Roman soldier to kill Jesus. Jesus was not the son of God sent to sacrifice for the sins of humans, and to therefore guarantee salvation. Jesus stories are not easy to believe, it takes a lot of faith. Mostly, they are not true. The real story has never been told. I only have ideas about bits and pieces. I am certain, however, Jesus was not crucified. He was murdered by a Roman solder and left to rot on the ground. More than anything, the real story condemns humans for rejecting Jesus, and allowing his body to rot on the ground. I don't believe Jesus was placed in a tomb. After laying on the ground for 31/2 days, (Rev.11:9) Jesus (God) ascended up into heaven. Not a very dramatic story, it had to be improved.

Ben Avraham · Apr 8, 2017

Cobol said:
Have you ever thought about how bizarre the crucifixion story is? Imagine the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven. He looks down onto earth and says to himself. Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human for all eternity. I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them. I HATE IT! I tried killing all the humans and animals once in the flood. That certainly did not fix the problem.So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me as a sacrifice to me. That, finally, will make me happy. Yes, sending myself down and having the humans crucify me. How much sense does this make?

Not only it would make no sense to try to understand this story, but also, it did not happen at all. Josephus reports in his book "Wars of the Jews" that thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans only in the First Century. What I wonder is why Jesus was singled out as the only one. Now, how about the reason why he was crucified? It was clearly stated by command of Pilates to be nailed on the top of his cross. It read INRI. Pilate wanted to make sure they all knew that Jesus was crucified on the political charge of insurrection for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in a Roman province which was Jerusalem at the time. (Luke 19:37:40) It didn't help though, because even to this very day antiSemites prefer to charge all the Jews with the death of Jesus. As we all can see, Antisemitism indeed dies hard.

About the insemination of the virgin mentioned above, it is a reference to Isaiah 7:14 which has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. The virgin was Israel if you read Amos 5:2 which fell to the Assyrians and was forced into the desert as the Scapegoat in fulfillment to the prophecy of the Scapegoat. The child born of the virgin was Judah if you read Isaiah 7:15, 22; 8:8 which was identified by Isaiah as Immanuel, the only one left in the Land of Israel to serve as the only voice between God and man. That's when the Lord rejected Israel, the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78:69-70) Well, there is much more to say but the post is getting too large already.

shmogie · Apr 8, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Not only it would make no sense to try to understand this story, but also, it did not happen at all. Josephus reports in his book "Wars of the Jews" that thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans only in the First Century. What I wonder is why Jesus was singled out as the only one. Now, how about the reason why he was crucified? It was clearly stated by command of Pilates to be nailed on the top of his cross. It read INRI. Pilate wanted to make sure they all knew that Jesus was crucified on the political charge of insurrection for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in a Roman province which was Jerusalem at the time. (Luke 19:37:40) It didn't help though, because even to this very day antiSemites prefer to charge all the Jews with the death of Jesus. As we all can see, Antisemitism indeed dies hard.

About the insemination of the virgin mentioned above, it is a reference to Isaiah 7:14 which has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. The virgin was Israel if you read Amos 5:2 which fell to the Assyrians and was forced into the desert as the Scapegoat in fulfillment to the prophecy of the Scapegoat. The child born of the virgin was Judah if you read Isaiah 7:15, 22; 8:8 which was identified by Isaiah as Immanuel, the only one left in the Land of Israel to serve as the only voice between God and man. That's when the Lord rejected Israel, the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78:69-70) Well, there is much more to say but the post is getting too large already.

Spoken as a true anti Christian Jew, the same false song and dance many Jews have been doing for 2,000 years. I understand, it is tough even for you to contemplate that you and your co religionists may have missed your Messiah. Who has ever told you that the Christ was the only person crucified by the Romans ? No Christian believes that. Many many thousands of all races were crucified across the Roman empire, not as you believe, just Jews. I see, if one believes the words of the eyewitnesses, that his crucifixion was the result of the agitation of the sanhedrin, one is an antisemite ? You are right in one way, a conquered nation under Roman Military occupation could not arbitrarily execute someone, so lets just say the sanhedrin were willing conspirators with the Romans. Does that make me an antisemite ? Of course, I don't believe all Jews are responsible, as believes every Christian I have met, and those who do don't understand the Scripture they propose to believe. You say the story "didn't happen at all". Well, lets look at your statement this way, there is more evidence for the Christ, than Moses, the exodus, the prophets, judges and kings, and actually, all the stories in the OT.

Lets contemplate the crucifiction

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